UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[dunroaming]

16 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Exactly, so she fundamentally objected to the EU principles and loss of sovereignty, until she had had businesses that were helped by EU membership. This is a bit of a theme with many remainers I know. They voted remain purely because it helps their business. They forgot about their principles or the wider impact on their country.

I on the other hand voted Leave, despite the fact it could harm my career (financial services). I had the same feelings about the EU in 1996 as I have now.

 

 

Probably guilty as charged but I have always said that I had a vested interest in voting remain.  I have spent the last thirty seven years dealing in Europe and the USA and building my business there.  I love being a European and being able to travel and do business there.  And understandably that gives me a different view to those who just go to the Costa De Sol once a year for their holiday.

 

But I don't consider that is in any way detrimental to my country.  My business brings money into the UK through the taxes I pay and also through business transactions.  I pay my accountant and solicitor here in the UK where my business is registered.  It is true that I have a back-up plan if Britain cannot get a deal with the EU after Brexit when I will move my base to Europe simply because otherwise I would lose too much money and have to close the business.  I have my fingers firmly crossed as I really don't want do that. 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

15 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

I don't think that is the case any more. Let the people decide, and we'll find out.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

You're not related to Jose M Barroso by any chance are you? ????????

Edited October 3, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[welovesundaysatspace]

28 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

There is no need for me to provide any more, the onus is on YOU.

You’re wrong. When you’re accusing someone of something, you have to prove it, not the other way round. 

 

Quote

But you won't do it I'm sure because you're both unable to and probably not inclined to even try.

Yes, I’m unable to prove your accusation that the EU is discriminating people when it comes to visa. I think it’s nonsense.  

 

Quote

Do you have ANY experience trying to get a Thai or any non EU national a visitor or work or study visa? If so then list it for me.

- My ex, when I was working in Germany, used to visit me plenty times. Never had a problem getting a visa.

- Also, when I was working in Germany, I met a guy in the office who turned out to be Thai. He studied his masters in Germany and then joined the German office of our company. 

- Plenty of work colleagues and friends visit and have been visiting Europe plenty of times, for vacation as well as for business trips. Never had a problem getting a visa either. One group just returned from a two weeks trip; another group is about to go soon. One ex of mine just returned from traveling in Europe. She used to have a German boyfriend after me who she visited plenty of times as well. 

- A friend of mine met his now-wife at university in Germany. She was studying her masters there. 

- I used to hangout with an au pair girl in Germany as well. Pretty sure she had a valid work visa. Met her again in Bangkok where she’s preparing for her bachelor which she wants to study in Germany. 

- Met another Thai girl (who was dating a friend of mine working in Bangkok that time) in Berlin who was there for some sort of management seminar for a month. 

 

Is that enough?

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[CG1 Blue]

23 minutes ago, tebee said:

Project fear eh?

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/paris-motor-show-no-deal-brexit-and-we-ll-have-to-leave-warns-bmw-9jf7sr5sr

They may move the annual factory shutdown to coincide with Brexit day. Makes perfect sense to do that, to avoid any temporary disruption.

BMW moved some production of the Mini to the Netherlands in 2012 - way before Brexit was even a a word. And they wouldn't move all Mini production to the Netherlands and risk alienating a 3rd of their customer base. German car makers will find a way to carry on doing business with the UK.

 

Incidentally, I could open the whole article.  Is there an official quote from the head of BMW stating the move to Netherlands will happen?

[BwindiBoy]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

You should ask the government, after all it is them that is responsible. Of course they will blame the EU, never admit to under funding the enforcement agencies.

 

Brexit has always been about money and emotion, predominantly money.

If no one had to wait to see a doctor or to have an operation, and

If the elderly and mentally ill were efficiently treated with respect, and

If the police had crime under control, and 

If every school was performing to an acceptable level, and

If the social security system was running smoothly, and 

If the unemployed Romanians had been dealt with quickly and deported,

Then it would have been a different outcome altogether and the emotional paranoids would have been left crying in their beer.

The austerity program has a lot to answer for.

 

Proximate Cause is EU freedom of movement.

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, dunroaming said:

I have spent the last thirty seven years dealing in Europe and the USA and building my business there.  I love being a European and being able to travel and do business there. 

Given that you've worked and done business in the US (I'm assumng you don't have dual US citizenship), you know that you will be able to work and do business in the EU after brexit - whatever form that takes - either from the UK or by establishing an EU-base.

 

I love being a European too, but being a European and being in the EU are not the same thing - the EU is not Europe - you will still be a European whatever happens with brexit.

[melvinmelvin]

I have never before heard of losing the right to vote because of living abroad.

I hope this is special for UK and not normal.

 

The circus around who could/could not vote re Scotland and independence I found rather distasteful.

 

[billd766]

4 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

If/when I have lived away from the UK for 15 years, I won't complain if I can't vote. After all, why should I vote on topics affecting a country I no longer live in? 

Why should I have the same voting rights as those who are still living there and will be directly affected by the result?

 

If you are a taxpayer then you should be entitled to vote, after all you are paying tax so why shouldn't you have a say in it.

 

What was it those pesky murrkins used to say back in the 1770s?

 

 

No taxation without representation.

[dunroaming]

23 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Given that you've worked and done business in the US (I'm assumng you don't have dual US citizenship), you know that you will be able to work and do business in the EU after brexit - whatever form that takes - either from the UK or by establishing an EU-base.

 

I love being a European too, but being a European and being in the EU are not the same thing - the EU is not Europe - you will still be a European whatever happens with brexit.

You are right I don't have dual US Citizenship.  Never needed it or wanted it.  And of course I will always be a European and proud of that  (OK maybe not proud but certainly every happy about it).  As for my business and Europe.  I can assure you that the way it operates there are certain aspects of a "Hard" or "No Deal" Brexit that would mean that I would be financially and operationally much worse off to the point of not being able to continue without moving the base.  After 37 years I should know, don't you think?

 

I have already put in place a new base should I need it along with other people in the same boat as me.  We all hope that we won't need it. 

Edited October 3, 2018 by dunroaming

[billd766]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

You should ask the government, after all it is them that is responsible. Of course they will blame the EU, never admit to under funding the enforcement agencies.

 

Brexit has always been about money and emotion, predominantly money.

If no one had to wait to see a doctor or to have an operation, and

If the elderly and mentally ill were efficiently treated with respect, and

If the police had crime under control, and 

If every school was performing to an acceptable level, and

If the social security system was running smoothly, and 

If the unemployed Romanians had been dealt with quickly and deported,

Then it would have been a different outcome altogether and the emotional paranoids would have been left crying in their beer.

The austerity program has a lot to answer for.

 

So has the previous Labour governments of Blair and Brown who caused the problem in the first place.

[dunroaming]

Just finished watching Theresa May's conference speech.  It was cringemaking but nothing new, just the same old waffle and no indication of any progress with Brexit.  So I am afraid we are left to still scratch around looking for something Brexitish to bicker over ????

 

Interestingly though she didn't mention "Chequers" once.  Having a re-think Mr's May?

Edited October 3, 2018 by dunroaming

[My Thai Life]

18 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

I can assure you that the way it operates there are certain aspects of a "Hard" or "No Deal" Brexit that would mean that I would be financially and oerationally much worse off to the point of not being able to continue without moving the base.  After 37 years I should know, don't you think?

Yes of course you would - that's exactly what I was saying, I wasn't trying to be facetious or condescending. 

I too have worked extensively across Europe and the US, and other parts of the world, but via multinationals. And I have no personal or business exposure to Brexit.

 

If I had a UK-based SME trading with the EU, I would likely be very unhappy with the leave vote. Obviously each business and personal situation is different. Dyson says he's been trading with the EU on WTO terms for a couple of years. To tell the truth I'm not sure what he means by this - he is not yet a nation-state able to secure his own trade deals independently of national policy!

Edited October 3, 2018 by My Thai Life

[dunroaming]

2 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Yes of course you would - that's exactly what I was saying, I wasn't trying to be facetious or condescending. 

I too have worked extensively across Europe and the US, and other parts of the world, but via multinationals. And I have no personal or business exposure to Brexit.

 

If I had a UK-based SME trading with the EU, I would likely be very unhappy with the leave vote. Obviously each business and personal situation is different. Dyson says he's been trading with the EU on WTO terms for a couple of years. To tell the truth I'm not sure what he means by this - he is not yet a nation-state able to secure his own trade deals!

 

Didn't think for a moment that you were being facetious or condescending.  Sorry if my reply suggested that.  I do get a little fractious about all this as you can imagine.  I have come to terms with Brexit long ago and I am not one of those calling for it to be scrapped.  I did to start with but I now know it would just cause a deepening of the splits in the country.  It is down to how the final deal will affect me. 

[My Thai Life]

19 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

ust finished watching Theresa May's conference speech.  It was cringemaking but nothing new, just the same old waffle and no indication of any progress with Brexit.  So I am afraid we are left to still scratch around looking for something Brexitish to bicker over ????

I think for me the most important development at the Tory conference was Arlene Foster saying she would support Johnson's plan. I'd like to see some recalculations of the parliamentary arithmetic for the different brexit possibilities - there seem to be a few losers, but no clear winner.

Edited October 3, 2018 by My Thai Life

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

You should ask the government, after all it is them that is responsible. Of course they will blame the EU, never admit to under funding the enforcement agencies.

 

Brexit has always been about money and emotion, predominantly money.

If no one had to wait to see a doctor or to have an operation, and

If the elderly and mentally ill were efficiently treated with respect, and

If the police had crime under control, and 

If every school was performing to an acceptable level, and

If the social security system was running smoothly, and 

If the unemployed Romanians had been dealt with quickly and deported,

Then it would have been a different outcome altogether and the emotional paranoids would have been left crying in their beer.

The austerity program has a lot to answer for.

 

Quite right, nobody said much of anything when they had pounds in pockets.  I've posted as much a few times.  I think Churchill said as much, far more eloquently of course.

[Orac]

6 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

I think for me the most important development at the Tory conference was Arlene Foster saying she would support Johnson's plan. I'd like to see some recalculations of the parliamentary arithmetic for the different brexit possibilities - there seem to be a few losers, but no clear winner.

 

To be fair, Johnson's idea of a bridge physically connection GB to NI must be making her practically moist in anticipation which is a dreadful thought on its own.

[nauseus]

23 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Just finished watching Theresa May's conference speech.  It was cringemaking but nothing new, just the same old waffle and no indication of any progress with Brexit.  So I am afraid we are left to still scratch around looking for something Brexitish to bicker over ????

 

Interestingly though she didn't mention "Chequers" once.  Having a re-think Mr's May?

 

Yes, slightly cryptic. I don't think she had the balls to mention Chequers! ???? But it sounds like she is going to try to stick with it and it also sounds like she may have a card up her sleeve (or somewhere) but I doubt if its an ace! If its a joker there could be a GE. But it would be interesting to know how many one-to-one calls she's had with Merkel since she visited Germany???? ??

[aright]

5 hours ago, kwilco said:

You might want to uncritical thinking and look at the message rather than the messanger.

 

I think the veracity of the messenger is very important especially when he wrote the message

 

 

5 hours ago, kwilco said:

The more you post, the more I'm convinced you don't actually know what critical thinking is...

Here is a brief introduction.It's called "Here be Dragons....an introduction to critical thinking"... most Brexiteers watch it and become intensely embarrassed.

 

https://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D752V173e31o&ved=2ahUKEwiJ2e2J2endAhVFWX0KHaAGB28QtwIwAHoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3vcnTYLViidJRhpEK3m3Ke

 

 

 

"Here be Dragons" written by Brian Dunning, I believe who is a convicted felon for wire fraud which he admits and who was sentenced to a term in federal Prison as well as 3 years probation for punishment.

"He is a criminal. It is fraud; A fraud conviction against a skeptic is extra-biting as skeptics as a whole pride themselves on " fighting the fakirs" Dunning got 15 mths in prison This is great news for the skeptic community at large, since it may be a long enough sentence for Dunning to fade from memory and stop publicly representing the very people who are supposedly trying to stop people from defrauding others.

Which Chapter of your Cult Leader do you belong to? 

 

AnonymousAugust 7, 2014 at 7:46 PM

I think that what undermines Dunning's past and future work once he's released is his insistence that we somehow believe his claims of innocence based upon documents that are sealed by the court (probably at his behest). In skepticism, evidence is supposed to be the coin of the realm. Saying 'the document I asked you not be allowed to see would prove I'm not really a criminal' should be laughed out of the room, as should the person saying it.

 

 

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, kwilco said:

The more you post, the more I'm convinced you don't actually know what critical thinking is...

Here is a brief introduction.It's called "Here be Dragons....an introduction to critical thinking"... most Brexiteers watch it and become intensely embarrassed.

 

https://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D752V173e31o&ved=2ahUKEwiJ2e2J2endAhVFWX0KHaAGB28QtwIwAHoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3vcnTYLViidJRhpEK3m3Ke

 

 

 

Fine example! Dunning was indeed convicted for fraud. Don't you feel intensely embarrassed?

 

Why not have a critical think about that?  ????

Edited October 3, 2018 by nauseus

[tebee]

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

They may move the annual factory shutdown to coincide with Brexit day. Makes perfect sense to do that, to avoid any temporary disruption.

BMW moved some production of the Mini to the Netherlands in 2012 - way before Brexit was even a a word. And they wouldn't move all Mini production to the Netherlands and risk alienating a 3rd of their customer base. German car makers will find a way to carry on doing business with the UK.

 

Incidentally, I could open the whole article.  Is there an official quote from the head of BMW stating the move to Netherlands will happen?

Harald Krüger, chief executive of BMW and a former head of the Mini plant, said:....

“If there is a no-deal Brexit we will be impacted because some of the cars will not be able to meet certain free trade agreements across the globe because the UK portion of the value [of components including the engine] in the car is not enough for some of these free trade agreements,” Mr Krüger said.

“If we do not qualify from the UK we will move production to the Netherlands [where the other main Mini plant is] because then we can fulfil those free trade agreements.

 

 

He did also say that he would keep some production at Oxford for the UK market though 

Edited October 3, 2018 by tebee

[melvinmelvin]

11 minutes ago, tebee said:

Harald Krüger, chief executive of BMW and a former head of the Mini plant, said:....

“If there is a no-deal Brexit we will be impacted because some of the cars will not be able to meet certain free trade agreements across the globe because the UK portion of the value [of components including the engine] in the car is not enough for some of these free trade agreements,” Mr Krüger said.

“If we do not qualify from the UK we will move production to the Netherlands [where the other main Mini plant is] because then we can fulfil those free trade agreements.

 

 

He did also say that he would keep some production at Oxford for the UK market though 

 

and? so what?

 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

If you are a taxpayer then you should be entitled to vote, after all you are paying tax so why shouldn't you have a say in it.

 

What was it those pesky murrkins used to say back in the 1770s?

 

 

No taxation without representation.

Yes, if you pay tax you should get a vote - agreed

[CG1 Blue]

30 minutes ago, tebee said:

Harald Krüger, chief executive of BMW and a former head of the Mini plant, said:....

“If there is a no-deal Brexit we will be impacted because some of the cars will not be able to meet certain free trade agreements across the globe because the UK portion of the value [of components including the engine] in the car is not enough for some of these free trade agreements,” Mr Krüger said.

“If we do not qualify from the UK we will move production to the Netherlands [where the other main Mini plant is] because then we can fulfil those free trade agreements.

 

 

He did also say that he would keep some production at Oxford for the UK market though 

Thanks.  I still think this is mostly about trying to put pressure on May to get a deal.

 

I'd be interested to know exactly what he means when he says "some of the cars will not be able to meet certain free trade agreements across the globe because the UK portion of the value [of components including the engine] in the car is not enough for some of these free trade agreements,”

 

I'd like to know which FTAs this affects specifically, plus evidence that the UK component would actually breach those FTAs. Then I'd be interested to know the proportion of Mini sales in the countries involved in those FTAs, and therefore how material the impact would be.

 

I'm not expecting you to answer this, but I'm just saying he could be using smoke and mirrors to put the pressure on.

 

[melvinmelvin]

12 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Thanks.  I still think this is mostly about trying to put pressure on May to get a deal.

 

I'd be interested to know exactly what he means when he says "some of the cars will not be able to meet certain free trade agreements across the globe because the UK portion of the value [of components including the engine] in the car is not enough for some of these free trade agreements,”

 

I'd like to know which FTAs this affects specifically, plus evidence that the UK component would actually breach those FTAs. Then I'd be interested to know the proportion of Mini sales in the countries involved in those FTAs, and therefore how material the impact would be.

 

I'm not expecting you to answer this, but I'm just saying he could be using smoke and mirrors to put the pressure on.

 

 

of course he uses smoke/m trying to create a sense of pressure

I'd say his views are of no interest at all - to me he makes the impression of being a bit thick

 

bmw makes cars and satang in a heap of countries outside EU

 

[melvinmelvin]

27 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Yes, if you pay tax you should get a vote - agreed

 

 

right, so in UK you must pay fees in order to vote?

[tebee]

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

 

right, so in UK you must pay fees in order to vote?

Remember the poll tax?

[tebee]

33 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Thanks.  I still think this is mostly about trying to put pressure on May to get a deal.

 

I'd be interested to know exactly what he means when he says "some of the cars will not be able to meet certain free trade agreements across the globe because the UK portion of the value [of components including the engine] in the car is not enough for some of these free trade agreements,”

 

I'd like to know which FTAs this affects specifically, plus evidence that the UK component would actually breach those FTAs. Then I'd be interested to know the proportion of Mini sales in the countries involved in those FTAs, and therefore how material the impact would be.

 

I'm not expecting you to answer this, but I'm just saying he could be using smoke and mirrors to put the pressure on.

 

 

It's all to do with rules of origin - the percentage of foreign components an export may have and still be considered  as a export of one country.

 

while we are part of the EU  this isn't a problem as parts made in any part of the CU are considered home parts.

 

but after we leave, if a car may have no more than 15% of non-EU parts in in to comply with rules of origin, a car with say 25% British parts would not comply and would suffer a higher import tariff when shipped to another country. 

 

Technical explanation here 

 

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/roi_e/roi_info_e.htm

[CG1 Blue]

24 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

It's all to do with rules of origin - the percentage of foreign components an export may have and still be considered  as a export of one country.

 

while we are part of the EU  this isn't a problem as parts made in any part of the CU are considered home parts.

 

but after we leave, if a car may have no more than 15% of non-EU parts in in to comply with rules of origin, a car with say 25% British parts would not comply and would suffer a higher import tariff when shipped to another country. 

 

Technical explanation here 

 

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/roi_e/roi_info_e.htm

Got it, thanks ????

[billd766]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

 

right, so in UK you must pay fees in order to vote?

 

Not at all. It has nothing to do with that at all.

 

If you earn in your pensions more that the UK tax allowance then you pay income tax on the balance.

 

At the current rate of income tax in the I am in fact subsidising my state pension by some 20%.

 

For this magnanimous gesture on my part, and because I live in Thailand the generous UK government has actually FROZEN my pension at the rate that I EARNED it since 2009.

 

 I truly believe that gives me the right to vote in any election or referendum in the UK for life as I started paying income tax in 1959 and will continue to do so until I die.

[mommysboy]

It's a good job (for the Tories) that Labour went first or the Tories wouldn't have had any ideas at all.  Oh, there was the obligatory mention of tax cuts, and a vague promise of new housing.  I'm sure the tax cuts will materialise- for the already wealthy anyway!

 

We have even less clarity on Brexit than before, which is rather remarkable really.

 

"Dancing Queen'- 'Waterloo' more like.