UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

your comments about cattle are incorrect:

The comments were not mine, I merely referenced what Michel Barnier had said in a discussion where he was trying to explain to people like you that you cannot have diseased livestock wandering about from one set of regulations to another.

Of course you are perfectly free to disagree with his point of view.

All discussion on the Irish border has hinged on regulatory alignment. From day one the EU has said that NI should remain in the SM and all the UK has done is try and water that down.

Edited October 10, 2018 by sandyf

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, tebee said:

Interesting theory.

 

 

Yet another cut n pastie a la fear factor but without any reference. Great work. 

 

[dunroaming]

14 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

No issue with having a 2nd referendum on the deal but the only options on the voting paper should be

1) do you want to leave the eu without a deal

2) do you want to leave with a deal

Yes but the only way that becomes an option to offer is that "the deal" needs to be a "soft deal" against a "no deal".  That would work in principle but would still guarantee to frustrate and anger both sides yet again.  Either way we are going to lose out, there is no upside to Brexit the way it is being presented.

[tebee]

[tebee]

May’s mantra was “No deal is better than a bad deal” -  it's now “Any deal is better than no deal”?

 

https://www.ft.com/content/d43d2562-cbb0-11e8-b276-b9069bde0956

[Stupooey]

14 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Here a pro brexit article from the Lancet

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31736-7/fulltext

 

Hardly a pro Brexit article. Although the writer is a Brexit supporter, it simply points out that much of the predicted fallout has been exaggerated. It makes no claims that the NHS will be stronger off post Brexit.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Stupooey
Posted when incomplete

[tebee]

God we have got ourselves into a right mess - 

 

 

[tebee]

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yet another cut n pastie a la fear factor but without any reference. Great work. 

Thanks 

[vinny41]

9 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Yes but the only way that becomes an option to offer is that "the deal" needs to be a "soft deal" against a "no deal".  That would work in principle but would still guarantee to frustrate and anger both sides yet again.  Either way we are going to lose out, there is no upside to Brexit the way it is being presented.

The purpose any 2nd referendum is to give the British people the final say on No deal or whatever deal is on the table nothing more nothing less

Equally the Scots would have to have a seperate referendum 1st where they should be asked 

1) Do you wish to take part in a 2nd referendum on the basis that you lose any future rights to an independence vote for  the next 100 years

2) Do you want  independence vote now without taking part in a 2nd referendum

We have been advised many times by different groups that  "you can't have your cake and eat it"

seems to me that should also apply to the SNP

[Stupooey]

12 hours ago, aright said:

Yes things  are so much better in the EU 

 

EU

 

   

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/People_at_risk_of_poverty_or_social_exclusion

 

 

 

 

Charts like this are only meaningful if you compare the figure for each country with the corresponding figure before they joined the EU. I would suspect that in most cases it has gone down.

[Stupooey]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

You do realise that the UK and the EU both deal with members of the TPP on a daily basis don't you?

 

The UK dealt with many of those countries before we joined the EU and there is no reason to suppose that we won't deal with them after Brexit.

 

I didn't say we didn't or won't, just that it makes more sense logistically for your major trading partners to be within vaguely the same geographical area as opposed to on the other side of the world (and yes, I do know that Nova Scotia is closer to Perth, Scotland than it is to Perth, Australia, but you get my meaning. Or perhaps you don't. 

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The purpose any 2nd referendum is to give the British people the final say on No deal or whatever deal is on the table nothing more nothing less

Equally the Scots would have to have a seperate referendum 1st where they should be asked 

1) Do you wish to take part in a 2nd referendum on the basis that you lose any future rights to an independence vote for  the next 100 years

2) Do you want  independence vote now without taking part in a 2nd referendum

We have been advised many times by different groups that  "you can't have your cake and eat it"

seems to me that should also apply to the SNP

It's interesting that you distinguish between 'the British people' and 'the Scots'. Am I right in assuming that you consider 'England' and 'Britain' to be synonyms of each other?

 

As for your proposal for a sepratate Scottish referendum:

12 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

1) Do you wish to take part in a 2nd referendum on the basis that you lose any future rights to an independence vote for  the next 100 years

a) The UK did not need to ask the permission of the EU to hold the Brexit referendum. Why do you think that Scotland should need the permission of Westminster?

b) The material change within the UK that precipitated the call for indyref2 took less than 3 years to arise. A 100 year embargo is as nonsense as the question proposed.

 

14 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

2) Do you want  independence vote now without taking part in a 2nd referendum

Why do you hate democracy so much?

 

It seems that you are not alone in trying to deny universal enfranchisement. According to the recent YouGov / Future of England survey, 56% of all respondents in England either agreed with, or were neutral about the suggestion that Scottish MPs should be barred from holding a cabinet postion in a UK government. Looking at Leave voters alone, that number rose to a whopping 80%.

 

And to think that it is only 4 years since David Cameron pleaded, 'lead us, don't leave us.'.

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

It's interesting that you distinguish between 'the British people' and 'the Scots'. Am I right in assuming that you consider 'England' and 'Britain' to be synonyms of each other?

 

As for your proposal for a sepratate Scottish referendum:

a) The UK did not need to ask the permission of the EU to hold the Brexit referendum. Why do you think that Scotland should need the permission of Westminster?

b) The material change within the UK that precipitated the call for indyref2 took less than 3 years to arise. A 100 year embargo is as nonsense as the question proposed.

 

Why do you hate democracy so much?

 

It seems that you are not alone in trying to deny universal enfranchisement. According to the recent YouGov / Future of England survey, 56% of all respondents in England either agreed with, or were neutral about the suggestion that Scottish MPs should be barred from holding a cabinet postion in a UK government. Looking at Leave voters alone, that number rose to a whopping 80%.

 

And to think that it is only 4 years since David Cameron pleaded, 'lead us, don't leave us.'.

No problems with democracy but as I stated We have been advised many times by different groups that  "you can't have your cake and eat it" It seems to be that  Corbyn and the Labour Party and Sturgeon and the SNP wan't there cake and eat it hedging their views pretending to try and please everyone.

A few days before the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, then-First Minister Alex Salmond said that the vote was a “once in a generation opportunity”

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/04/10/scottish-referendum-vote-was-supposed-be-once-gene/

 

If you respect democracy everyone should respect the outcome of the 2016 EU referendum instead of spouting the wesel words that some politicians employ such as " I respect the outcome of the 2016 EU referendum but"

[tebee]

9 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

....

 

If you respect democracy everyone should respect the outcome of the 2016 EU referendum instead of spouting the wesel words that some politicians employ such as " I respect the outcome of the 2016 EU referendum but"

Except that result was obtained by cheating, with many people who were affected by the result unable to vote in the first [lace

[Stupooey]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

"Any comment about the Leave vote being the largest ever UK vote is rather put into perspective when you realise that the Remain vote was the second largest."

 

That is just the same as saying the Labour party got the second largest number of votes at the last election.

 

So why aren't they in power now?

 

No, it's not the same at all. Are you deliberately try to misinterpret everything I say, or are you just...no, I won't say it, it will only give MyThaiLife more ammunition in his ruthless pursuit of Remainers.

As I'm sure you well know, my point was that comparing voting figures for a referendum, with only two options, to a general election contested by many different parties is ridiculous. People keep on banging on about 'more people voted for Brexit than have ever voted for any Government' should also bear in mind that 'more people voted to remain in the EU than have ever voted for any Government'. It doesn't make it so special then, even more so when you realise that the previous record was held by John Major in 1992.

 

 

 

 

[tebee]

It's all going so swimmingly well

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a661abb6-cc0c-11e8-998e-a6e3c63abd14

[RuamRudy]

25 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

No problems with democracy but as I stated We have been advised many times by different groups that  "you can't have your cake and eat it" It seems to be that  Corbyn and the Labour Party and Sturgeon and the SNP wan't there cake and eat it hedging their views pretending to try and please everyone.

A few days before the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, then-First Minister Alex Salmond said that the vote was a “once in a generation opportunity”

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/04/10/scottish-referendum-vote-was-supposed-be-once-gene/

 

If you respect democracy everyone should respect the outcome of the 2016 EU referendum instead of spouting the wesel words that some politicians employ such as " I respect the outcome of the 2016 EU referendum but"

Alex Salmond has no greater ownership of Scottish Independence than any other individual; what he said in 2014 about 'once in a generation; is as irrelevant to me now as it was then. Similarly, the SNP does not own the independence movement - that is a far broader church.

 

Almost every aspect of Brexit was saturated in weasel words; our greatly diminished country is in this state of humiliated chaos because of weasel words. To paraphrase Goebbels, you are accusing your opponent of that which you are doing yourself.

[nauseus]

35 minutes ago, tebee said:

Except that result was obtained by cheating, with many people who were affected by the result unable to vote in the first [lace

Do you mean remain had to cheat to get 48%?

[RuamRudy]

Jacob Rees Mogg is already organising the celebration BBQ:

 

Whitehall plans for slaughter of sheep after no‑deal Brexit

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

It's all going so swimmingly well

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a661abb6-cc0c-11e8-998e-a6e3c63abd14

 

ship ahoy

 

no worries .sheep can swim

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, Orac said:

 

 

The whole WTO system is currently under threat and in a bit of a mess at the moment just at the wrong time as far as the UK is concerned both by the rise of China and the more aggressive positioning of the US under Trump - don’t forget that Wilbur Ross has already publicly stated that Brexit gives the US an ideal opportunity to take trade from the UK.

Though the rules do suggest that everyone has to agree to schedules and follow the rules this article by someone whose father is probably better known in Thailand is one of the best explainers I have seen on U.K./WTO situation suggesting that some things can be stretched providing that goodwill is preserved.

https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2018/09/12/happening-tariff-quotas-uk-wto/



Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

all the more reason for UK to start taking it seriously, manpower must be invested in this,

its not particularly difficult but quite time consuming

 

[tebee]

Everything you wanted to know, but were afraid to ask...

 

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/10/10/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-final-weeks-of-brexit

[melvinmelvin]

6 hours ago, tebee said:

This is the problem - we are heading towards a major constitutional change which will affect almost every aspect of life in the UK, without any idea of how to implement it and without any consensus about how we should proceed or even the direction we should be heading.

 

Worse still, because of this, we have not started to implement the procedures that will be needed in 6 months time or construct the infrastructure to cope with it.

 

At the moment the train is headed  in the direction of a chaotic nodeal brexit, but we are woefully unprepared for that. The only likely available alternative destinations are a brexit in name only or just abandon the whole silly idea.     

 

start work on the important things / and the costly stuff

[kwilco]

"We won, get over it"

Bit of a Pyrrhic victory if you ask me....

 

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by kwilco

[billd766]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

I never suggested that trade with the EU would stop, proximity will always make it the UK's preferred trade partner.

Trade with the TPP countries is available now, why would companies that cheese not change their mind.

As for Canada why would anyone think that things would be any easier for the UK than the EU. Although I accept that the autocratic regime may speed up the decision making. The EU have still to get final approval on the new legal arrangements.

https://theconversation.com/the-uncertain-future-of-the-canadian-european-trade-deal-100228

 

I used to do business with Europe before the SM. I personally took a batch of orthopedic ovens to a customer in the south of France in an estate car. You would not believe the running around at Dover before I could get on the boat, and then again at the other end. The SM took all that hassle away.

Modern technology may make what needs to done easier but it does not remove what needs to be done and it certainly does not make people understand what needs to be done.

A return to shipping agents will kill off a lot of exporting.

 

I know you didn't suggest that trade with the EU will stop but a few others are suggesting that which IMHO is somewhat foolish.

 

I Understand that at the moment trade deals must go through the EU but I am not sure how it affects individual companies from the UK. Are they still bound by the EU rules and regs?

 

With regard to the UK and Canada deal there are only 2 countries involved but with the EU and Canada there are 28 including the UK and AFAIK they all have to agree to it.

 

I found this on the BBC News site today.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45796253

 

King Willem-Alexander said he and and his government regretted Brexit and anticipated changes to the current trade arrangements.

He would have liked the EU referendum result to go the other way, but said they respected the sovereign British people's choice.

Trade with the UK will change, he said, but he believes it will still be very strong after the UK leaves the EU.

The Dutch and British have worked together as neighbours for centuries and he thinks that will continue after Brexit, he said.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Yet another cut n pastie a la fear factor but without any reference. Great work. 

 

 

And once again no links.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Stupooey said:

 

No, it's not the same at all. Are you deliberately try to misinterpret everything I say, or are you just...no, I won't say it, it will only give MyThaiLife more ammunition in his ruthless pursuit of Remainers.

As I'm sure you well know, my point was that comparing voting figures for a referendum, with only two options, to a general election contested by many different parties is ridiculous. People keep on banging on about 'more people voted for Brexit than have ever voted for any Government' should also bear in mind that 'more people voted to remain in the EU than have ever voted for any Government'. It doesn't make it so special then, even more so when you realise that the previous record was held by John Major in 1992.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not trying to misrepresent everything you say but what you gave  as usual.was completely one sided.

 

I offered you a different set of figures that you don't like but cannot argue with.

 

OK, another referendum option then.

 

The Scottish Independence referendum in 2014 about Scotland becoming Independent.

 

Those who voted NO got  2,001,926 votes

Those who voted YES got 1,617,989 votes.

 

They came second as did the Remainers in the Brexit vote.

 

Strangely enough the losers in BOTH referendums are shouting for another.

 

 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Except that result was obtained by cheating, with many people who were affected by the result unable to vote in the first [lace

 

Wow. I am so proud that you have found this out.

 

Now naturally you have the proof, links etc and you will publicly take it up with bothe the EU and all the relevant department of the UK government.

 

If not and you have no proof I call your post BS.

[melvinmelvin]

11 minutes ago, billd766 said:

King Willem-Alexander said he and British peoplehis government regretted Brexit and anticipated changes to the current trade arrangements.

He would have liked the EU referendum result to go the other way, but said they respected the sovereign British people's choice.

Trade with the UK will change, he said, but he believes it will still be very strong after the UK leaves the EU.

The Dutch and British have worked together as neighbours for centuries and he thinks that will continue after Brexit, he said.

2

 

enjoy the kings view re sovereign British people

seems to me that the way pmtm has handled matters

the sovereign British people is now under strict DUP control, at least as far as Brexit is concerned

 

in my view, the Irish lady is totally unreasonable in her demands

[tebee]

Isn't it strange ?

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by tebee