UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[stephenterry]

19 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

As 263 constituencies voted brexit (compared to 119 voting to remain) - I am pretty sure that the majority of MPs are very aware that they could well lose their seats at the next GE if they support any govt. motion to withdraw the article 50 notification!

 

Which, presumably, is precisely why MPs voted to enact article 50 in the first place - even though the vast majority supported remain!

Yes, it's all about party politics and retaining power, than the Brexshit mantra 'respecting the vote' which is used to justify supporting the thousands of lemmings waiting to jump off a cliff and finding freedom on the rocks below. 

 

 

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

Regretably, kwilco, the referendum header included a proviso the the government would act on the result.  As to holding another referendum , the result will be as close as last time, mostly because people do not readily change their minds, and unfortunately couldn't be bothered to understand the implications. 

 

The typical 'leaving' voter, based on information garnered  at constituencies voting centres, would be uneducated and unemployed in a depressed area north of the Watford gap, and facing being usurped by EU immigrants for any low-paid menial work. Standard response, 'leaving must be better th what we have now'. Similarly, at run-down housing estates outside major cities where working-class housewives and their families 'mistrust anything European.

 

Absolutely nothing to do with regaining our sovereignty, or freeing everyone from the repressive ECJ, or even about EU civil servants living the high-life on tax-free expenses, bearing in mind that 80% of the EU budget gets returned to the member countries to 'waste' on internal country projects, like building a new runway at Bristol docks or filling the pension pots of their own civil servants.

 

 

 

 

as the leave campaign has been shown to be illegal the whole thing is a moot point

Edited August 18, 2018 by kwilco

[vogie]

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

Wonderful example of a Brexiteer-style argument - totally devoid of any reason.

I hope this well written piece will help to dilute some of the remainers arrogance.

 

"The fractures in society are not inevitable. But healing them does require that all citizens, whatever age, whatever educational background, whatever way they voted in the referendum, stop caricaturing their fellow voters and instead seize the moment and take on the challenges of Brexit as a positive opportunity to build a new society. If we can overcome these fractures, the future is ours to shape. 

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/claire-fox/it-s-time-for-remainers-to-stop-caricaturing-leave-voters-as-stupid-dupes

[stephenterry]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

I hope this well written piece will help to dilute some of the remainers arrogance.

 

"The fractures in society are not inevitable. But healing them does require that all citizens, whatever age, whatever educational background, whatever way they voted in the referendum, stop caricaturing their fellow voters and instead seize the moment and take on the challenges of Brexit as a positive opportunity to build a new society. If we can overcome these fractures, the future is ours to shape. 

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/claire-fox/it-s-time-for-remainers-to-stop-caricaturing-leave-voters-as-stupid-dupes

"Anyone stupid or ideologically obsessed enough to describe Brexit "as an opportunity" is hardly worth listening to"

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

"Anyone stupid or ideologically obsessed enough to describe Brexit "as an opportunity" is hardly worth listening to"

You have just proven my point, thank you.

[Grouse]

15 hours ago, nauseus said:

They did and pulled the A50 trigger.

With rubber bullet. Boing!

[Grouse]

15 hours ago, aright said:

No I can't give you a scientific source. Why do you prefer to think of his paper as having a scientific basis; to me it is conjecture , still valuable but no more so than conjecture from the opposing camp We are talking politics not science. If politics were an absolute science,I suspect most of our problems would have been solved by now. You say Rogers was a scientist...…...that doesn't qualify him to be a good politician in fact his qualification might not qualify him to be a good scientist either. Politics, philosophy and economics are the preferred subjects for people wanting a career in politics at preferably Oxford not science.

I think he is indeed an EXPERT in this issue and his views should be respected at least. You may not agree, but the man speaks with knowledge in depth and erudition. 

 

I would avoid churlish comments; you are way above that.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Grouse

[aright]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I think he is indeed an EXPERT in this issue and his views should be respected at least. You may not agree, but the man speaks with knowledge in depth and erudition. 

 

I would avoid churlish comments; you are way above that.

I said in my post 762 I respected him.

What comment was churlish?

[Grouse]

15 hours ago, aright said:

Its difficult to criticize conjecture without using more conjecture. 

I have never said I don't respect him your comments to me were as a result of my poor attempt at humour.

I will however endorse one paragraph in his spiel because it accords with my own viewpoint. 

 

"I speak solely as one unaccountable individual, not elected to anything by anyone and with no aspiration ever to be. So my views are merely those of someone with, I hope, a bit of expertise, and a passionate interest in the future of my country."

Yes, Welcome modesty

[Grouse]

15 hours ago, aright said:

Its difficult to criticize conjecture without using more conjecture. 

I have never said I don't respect him your comments to me were as a result of my poor attempt at humour.

I will however endorse one paragraph in his spiel because it accords with my own viewpoint. 

 

"I speak solely as one unaccountable individual, not elected to anything by anyone and with no aspiration ever to be. So my views are merely those of someone with, I hope, a bit of expertise, and a passionate interest in the future of my country."

Yes, Welcome modesty

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, aright said:

I said in my post 762 I respected him.

What comment was churlish?

that doesn't qualify him to be a good politician in fact his qualification might not qualify him to be a good scientist either. Politics, philosophy and economics are the preferred subjects for people wanting a career in politics at preferably Oxford not science.

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

..... and as Mel Gibson would say,............................FREEDOM !

Mel Gibson's portrayal of William Wallace is a pantomime for the poorly informed. Similar to Brexit!

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

I hope this well written piece will help to dilute some of the remainers arrogance.

 

"The fractures in society are not inevitable. But healing them does require that all citizens, whatever age, whatever educational background, whatever way they voted in the referendum, stop caricaturing their fellow voters and instead seize the moment and take on the challenges of Brexit as a positive opportunity to build a new society. If we can overcome these fractures, the future is ours to shape. 

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/claire-fox/it-s-time-for-remainers-to-stop-caricaturing-leave-voters-as-stupid-dupes

I didn't utter a word ?

[aright]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

that doesn't qualify him to be a good politician in fact his qualification might not qualify him to be a good scientist either. Politics, philosophy and economics are the preferred subjects for people wanting a career in politics at preferably Oxford not science.

What? In the first sentence how can you call my opinions/observations of someone else's opinion of him ill mannered or surly? The second sentence is just a statement of fact. If it is because you disagree with both of them, then I have to confess I am regularly churlish, I am also upset ?

 

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

as the leave campaign has been shown to be illegal the whole thing is a moot point

It may become a moot point- fact is fact: leavers have been caught cheating red handed.  Usually, relatively minor infractions go by the wayside; there is nothing usual about Brexit however.  Since it was a narrow result the High Court could void the referendum.  Not likely, but possible imo.

Edited August 18, 2018 by mommysboy

[Stupooey]

8 hours ago, nong38 said:

Under the European Referendum Act of 2015 there were 382 constituencies over 12 regions. There were no candidates standing, you went to vote to remain or to leave. In 263 of these constituencies the Leave vote one and in 119 the remain vote one, in Parliamentary term it would probably be classed as a landslide but all we hear is that 52% to 48% is very close, In General Elections its the constituencies won that matters, the popular vote is not taken as that important, so on that basis the vote to leave really won a resounding victory.

These were voting areas as opposed to constituencies and seem to have been set up for administrative convenience, with no attempt to make them of equal size, which means you cannot really compare the results. For example Northern Ireland, which voted fairly solidly to remain, consisted of just one voting area. Perhaps the one thing your figures indicate is that Leave did better in rural areas (where voting areas tended to have smaller populations) than urban ones, but we knew that already.

[ivor bigun]

On and on,we are leaving ,signed and sealed,whether you like it or not

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, ivor bigun said:

On and on,we are leaving ,signed and sealed,whether you like it or not

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Not happening, not sealed and NOT delivered

[Grouse]

23 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

Leave did better in rural areas

I can see other corrolations

 

I was all over the UK last month; no Brexiter showed his head above the parapet. It IS over.

[mommysboy]

14 hours ago, tebee said:

"We will only sign up to deal that respects referendum result"

It’s worth considering (again) what this curious, but often stated assertion might mean. It would have been simplest (and smartest) to argue that the referendum provided a political mandate to leave but not to leave in any particular way.

 

Then we could have had a national debate about the different modes of leaving and their pros and cons.

 

But no. Instead the govt (and others) conflated their view of how to leave with the referendum result - ie the famous 3 red lines.

 

Unfortunately, this approach has a fatal flaw. A Canada style deal (it’s obvious implication) would be economically disruptive. And if we’re going to be prescriptive about what the referendum result meant it certainly didn’t mean, for many leave voters, economic disruption. In fact, they were promised the opposite.

 

And so the course was set for the failed policy of Brexit Third Wayism, represented by the tortuous contortions of Lancaster House, Mansion House and Chequers. The Chequers logic is interesting. EEA was rejected because it didn’t ‘respect’. Canada was rejected because of the Irish backstop (presumably that doesn’t ‘respect’ either. Conveniently, the Chequers deal, one assumes, does ‘respect’ though some people demon to think that it doesn’t (eg common rulebook etc).

 

We end up in the nonsensical and tactically inept position of eliminating most forms of deal as not ‘respecting’ (or, at least, not suitable) while advocating a deal that doesn’t work from the EU’s perspective, hence all the recent talk of No Deal. The implied message is, ‘We tried, really hard, but nothing available would have satisfied the referendum result, so we’re afraid there won’t be a deal.’

 

The logic of this, to use the Brexit parlance, is that all available deals are bad deals vs no deal, however this is also nonsense. Quite apart from the damage caused, if we’re going to be prescriptive about what the referendum meant, it certainly did not mean No Deal, and, furthermore, there is no political mandate for No Deal, certainly not after the govt has spent the last couple of years promising a good deal.

 

We’ve painted ourselves into a very small corner - there may by this point be paint on our shoes - where virtually all forms of deal either don’t ‘respect’, are otherwise unsuitable or not acceptable to the EU.

 

Ironically, a ‘Deal ex Machina’ aside, the logic of all this paint cornering is that the people will end up having to decide, again. 

It's an excellent posting imo.

 

"The implied message is, ‘We tried, really hard, but nothing available would have satisfied the referendum result, so we’re afraid there won’t be a deal.’ "

 

I think in this instance we could just as easily conclude that no deal under these circumstances might just as well be logically followed by voidance.  The Government would inevitably be accused of 'throwing the match'.

[mommysboy]

9 minutes ago, ivor bigun said:

On and on,we are leaving ,signed and sealed,whether you like it or not

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

It's not though.

[stevenl]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

I hope this well written piece will help to dilute some of the remainers arrogance.

 

"The fractures in society are not inevitable. But healing them does require that all citizens, whatever age, whatever educational background, whatever way they voted in the referendum, stop caricaturing their fellow voters and instead seize the moment and take on the challenges of Brexit as a positive opportunity to build a new society. If we can overcome these fractures, the future is ours to shape. 

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/claire-fox/it-s-time-for-remainers-to-stop-caricaturing-leave-voters-as-stupid-dupes

Why should people stop calling brexiteers stupid dupes, when it is very clear that they are?

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Why should people stop calling brexiteers stupid dupes, when it is very clear that they are?

Doesn't say much for you then.

[melvinmelvin]

 

In this thread and in other/earlier Brexit threads the main focus has been on  what will go wrong or be worse

after Brexit deal  / Brexit no deal / no Brexit.

 

How about focusing on opportunities and possibilities in the possible scenarios ahead?

 

Every now and then I enjoy my  Belhaven, but am also happy not being British.

[mommysboy]

7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

In this thread and in other/earlier Brexit threads the main focus has been on  what will go wrong or be worse

after Brexit deal  / Brexit no deal / no Brexit.

 

How about focusing on opportunities and possibilities in the possible scenarios ahead?

 

Every now and then I enjoy my  Belhaven, but am also happy not being British.

 

Care to list those happy scenarios?

 

I can only think that hard Brexit may possibly offer significant opportunities after a very disruptive initial period of 3-4 years. 

[stevenl]

6 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Care to list those happy scenarios?

 

I can only think that hard Brexit may possibly offer significant opportunities after a very disruptive initial period of 3-4 years. 

What would those significant opportunities be?

[aright]

3 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Care to list those happy scenarios?

 

I can only think that hard Brexit may possibly offer significant opportunities after a very disruptive initial period of 3-4 years. 

 

Significant difficulties for the EU as well it would seem

 

 

Greece warns Brussels on Brexit: No-deal could trigger EU ECONOMIC MELTDOWN

GREECE has sent a shock warning to European Union bosses that they risk the economic and political stability of the bloc’s poorer countries while jousting with Britain over a possible no-deal Brexit.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1004816/Brexit-news-UK-EU-no-deal-Greece-economic-meltdown-warning-latest

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/17/greece-warns-no-deal-brexit-would-plunge-country-financial-political/

[david555]

7 minutes ago, aright said:

 

Significant difficulties for the EU as well it would seem

 

 

Greece warns Brussels on Brexit: No-deal could trigger EU ECONOMIC MELTDOWN

GREECE has sent a shock warning to European Union bosses that they risk the economic and political stability of the bloc’s poorer countries while jousting with Britain over a possible no-deal Brexit.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1004816/Brexit-news-UK-EU-no-deal-Greece-economic-meltdown-warning-latest

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/17/greece-warns-no-deal-brexit-would-plunge-country-financial-political/

Greece warn the E.U. as they are rescued from bankruptcy by the E.U. ? ...? an now are just taken of the financial  infuse they where on …..I think more likely they fear to miss all those British tourist as soon their pound go even more down ….could that not be the real worry ? ?

Edited August 18, 2018 by david555

[aright]

2 minutes ago, david555 said:

Greece warn the E.U. as they are rescued from bankruptcy by the E.U.? an now are just taken of the financial  infuse they where on …..I think more likely they fear to miss all those British tourist as soon their pound go even more down ….could that not be the real worry ?

No!

[mommysboy]

9 minutes ago, stevenl said:

What would those significant opportunities be?

Note, I did say 'may possibly'. 

 

Countries historically recover from deep recessions.  Presumably 4 years would allow for trade deals to be established with USA, etc.  I expect by that time we would be an even lower wage country and the pound would be around parity with the dollar.  Essentially we would be an offshore tax haven like HK, and Singapore.  Not nice for people, but the nation would thrive.

Edited August 18, 2018 by mommysboy