UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 minute ago, jak2002003 said:

What makes you proud of your country to want to separate and isolate it from all others?

 

The EU have given us a lot more right and freedoms that our British government did, from human right, workers conditions, gay rights, minority rights, food standards, health and safety standards, environmental protection for our beautiful countryside and wildlife, etc, etc, etc.

 

I have not receive much if any info from up on high.  I am not crazy into this situation and don't read too much about it... as it depresses me too much, and I am really worried about my future finances, work, etc.

 

In the EU we have the freedom to travel, work, live, anywhere in Europe.  That is going to be taken away form me now... and ruined my plans for the future.  Now out currency is in a downward slop... my finances and standard of life are going to go down also.  

 

I don't see how you can think isolating ourselves, ruining our economy, throwing out EU laws and good regulations for people, can be a good thing?  Seems we are cutting off our noses to spite our face.

 

I think some people would be happy to have no money left, live on the streets, with no human rights or protection.... sitting there in the rain alone... saying something like  ''I am so proud to be British and not have to be told what to do''.  

 

 

' I am not crazy into this situation and don't read too much about it... as it depresses me too much, and I am really worried about my future finances, work, etc.'  - and there perhaps lies the problem, for yourself and many more. I'm not saying I have all the answers, or that I have superior intellect to those who hold different views to me, many highly intelligent people voted to remain for some legitimate reasons after all. And while I understand your and others concerns, staying part of the EU would be worse than making a break and going it alone, all things considered. Even it means uncertainty and short term disruption, teething pains. It seem obvious to me (after analysis) that many people are overlooking (willfully or not) the key points about the EU and what its increasingly centralist, militaristic, corrupt & undemocratic status means for the UK, our European cousins and our respective futures. It is always (intentionally) misconstrued by certain factions, that being Eurosceptic is akin to being anti-European or isolationist somehow, when the opposite is in fact true.

 

Again, I don't mean to sound condescending here, but I think maybe you're confused about what the EU has done for us. It is just not true that we have been granted this myriad of 'liberties' that had otherwise never previously existed in our own country. It could be somewhat more correct to make this assumption with a few ex soviet countries, who were finding their feet as newly reinstated nations after being in the grip of another giant federalist dictatorship ?, but it's not the case (or at least very much less so) with the UK. Another perpetuated myth is that we would somehow be 'isolated' from the world or Europe itself by leaving a customs union and trade bloc that impedes us from making our own bilateral or unilateral trade deals with international players in the first place, whilst simultaneously making imports of goods and services from nations outside the EU pricier and thus less competitive and affordable to the British public via tariff barriers.

Once the UK is clear on where it stands, vis-a-vis our status & deal or lack of one with the EU, we would be open to negotiating new trade deals with big foreign players, most of which are current or ex commonwealth nations and are part of the Anglosphere with long standing relationships (both trade and diplomatic) with us that far predate the EU in the first place. Nowhere else is it necessary or preferential to be part of a huge customs union or trade bloc, even if it is 'the largest in the world' as they so proudly like to proclaim. It is also the only world marketplace that is declining year on year and is of course close to financial and economic ruin. It could be argued also that the EU is only our biggest export market because we have been unable to create new or renew old trade relationships with other nations, whilst being a part of it.

 

What further amazes me is that many people seem to think that before the EU came into being in the late 1940s the nations of Europe had existed in a state of lawlessness and abject poverty, devoid of all 'human rights', health and safety conditions or governmental policies that benefited the people of each nation, for a period stretching back into time immemorial. This is simply myopic, propagandist nonsense delivered to us often by people who were not even alive before we joined the EU and thus have no recollection of anything before it's existence. It's worth listening to some people who are of a more advanced age, with regard to this matter, they have the ability to speak knowledgeably about the UK and Europe before and after our joining the EEC as it then was. People like Tony Benn / Enoch Powell / Lord Tebitt / Jon Cruddas & Nigel Lawson to name a few from both sides of the political dichotomy, that understood the issues with and correctly predicted the faults and fallout created by the EU.

 

Look at the division that has opened up within Europe, largely a north-south split, in the last 20 years, for obvious and plainly predictable reasons. This is not to say that there weren't always tensions between European nation states of course, but to believe that the EU has somehow magically squashed all chances of war or animosity developing between the European nations is observably erroneous. The opposite looks to be happening. Another argument - although our legal system and constitutional monarchy / parliamentary democracy form of government is far from perfect, (and becoming increasingly corrupted it seems) the UK gave birth to idea of 'the rule of common law' habeas corpus and modern bicameral parliamentary politics and has remained freer, wealthier and enjoyed a higher standard of living for the majority of its population than any other nation in Europe, for centuries prior. I don't lay the blame squarely at the door of the EU for all of our problems either, that would be a mistake, as it isn't true. We have a lot of issues to correct domestically, within the UK, but a country is fundamentally unable to take such steps when it cedes its legislative power to a foreign governor, which essentially is what has happened to the UK and others in the EU. 

 

Reality is - with a quick resolution to all this, and the right people in place to enact it, we would be much better able to do business on our terms around the world with nascent economic giants and anyone else we chose to whilst continuing to trade with the EU (with which we have a massive trade deficit). Visa free travel is a bonus, I admit to that being one of my favoruite aspects of the EU, but once again British people pre-1975 worked, lived and traveled freely within the EU and beyond, just not visa-free. What makes you think this will not be the case once more or that you wouldn't be able to get a work / retirement or tourist visa easily enough in the future given you have the required skills / capital or other individual requirements?

 

Another huge misconception is that 'the EU is the only reason we have any human rights / workers rights or beneficial environmental policies etc. in the UK' - absolute cobblers. My own great grandfather was responsible for a few of the human rights laws that still exist in the UK today, from his tenure as a lord-chief justice in the ECHR in the Hague and as a QC in HCJ London - again predating our entry into the ECC. To believe that the UK has only had human rights legislation introduced solely because of the EU or ECHR is incredibly fatuous and misinformed. Let's not even begin to discuss the adverse effects of EU directives on our countryside, re: CAP or our associated farming and fishing industries (CFP for example) and consequent rise in energy prices. And our economy is not as totally intertwined with the EU as they would have us believe. The UK economy was supposedly going to tank and enter an abyss from which there was no return, Mr.Osborne himself gave us 'naughty children' the public, an ultimatum of harsh tax and spending penalties and the like should we dare defy the establishment consensus and vote to leave. Well, we did and as has been shown, the economy recovered after an initial dip in currency value / SE value and GDP growth etc. to above pre-Brexit levels. Our own fractional reserve banking system, quantitative easing and domestic asset bubbles, among other complexities, are a more prime cause for concern and dictate our national prosperity more than solely our trade and interaction with the EU does.

 

Our currency has remained massively overvalued anyway, which isn't connected to Brexit, so deflation and a lower valued currency wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for the UK in the long run. Our law courts and security forces always did and can once again function as independent agencies, working in close cooperation with their international counterparts, we aren't reliant on the EU for that either. And why is it impossible for us to keep the good EU legal legislation, redraft it into British law and continue with it? We don't need to have our hands held every step of the way and directed along a predetermined course by this governing superstate on the continent. That makes a mockery of our recent past and is what so many sacrificed so much for to avoid happening, after all. We should make our own decisions as a sovereign nation, thank you very much.

 

"I think some people would be happy to have no money left, live on the streets, with no human rights or protection.... sitting there in the rain alone... saying something like  ''I am so proud to be British and not have to be told what to do'' - I've never heard a finer example of total hyperbole or self loathing, underscored by a lack of faith in our own people or place in this world.

 

We have plenty to be proud of as a nation and we still might just have what it takes to go it alone given we have the right leadership and a bit of self belief and of course the access to self determination. Our first step must be to leave the EU in order to return to sovereign nation status, stand on our own two feet again and get on with our lives. Hopefully in a less polarised country.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

We differ on this point Chomper.

 

Labour has a clear route to power if they just were clear about at least remaining in the CU and SM. Corbyn is stopping this because of his Trotskyist stance. He particulary wishes to massively increase state intervention. I agree with reorganising the railways with nationalised infrastructure and real competition for services. I would re-nationalise water companies.

 

No, I don't buy that Corbyn is for the national good. His political views rule.

 

And his dress sense is embarrassing. Somebody should take him to Savile Row for a fitting.

"Labour has a clear route to power if they just were clear about at least remaining in the CU and SM."

 

Disagree entirely, bearing in mind the vast majority of Labour constituencies voted to leave.  Why would the voters in those constituencies be happy if the Labour party campaigned to remain within the CU and SM?

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Obfuscation! Cantab or not Cantab; that is the question.

 

The EU is far from perfect but much maybe resolved from within. Sadly, we we have too few Cantab (or Oxon or Dunelm [like me!])people in the foreign office and civil service.

 

The EU has limited demagoguery thank goodness. I welcome coalition governments because it locks extremists into unelectable parties with no chance of actual control.

 

I am certainly not homogenised  though increasingly "incompetent" due to old age ?

 

Finally, the history of Europe strongly indicates that having everyone in a club is a good idea.

 

I think free movement can be limited by controlling the numbers per annum by country. Say, no more than 5,000 per annum from a particular country. Also limit total numbers according to population density. That would actually give U.K., Belgium and Netherlands an opt out. Who is negotiating any of this? Not our top minds for sure!  

"The EU is far from perfect but much maybe resolved from within."

 

And yet, even after the brexit vote (which should have given them a very good clue that serious reforms were needed!), they have shown no intention of doing anything of the sort. ☹️

[tebee]

6 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I find it quite surprising there has been so little public unrest; perhaps the conclusion is that a majority still want Brexit no matter what.  Insane in my view, and yours, but there we are!

I think too many are still expecting a painless leave - we won't see a reaction by the masses until they actually start to suffer.

 

We Brits are too docile - in France they'd have been blocking the motorways with burning barricades for months now.  

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Obfuscation! Cantab or not Cantab; that is the question.

 

The EU is far from perfect but much maybe resolved from within. Sadly, we we have too few Cantab (or Oxon or Dunelm [like me!])people in the foreign office and civil service.

 

The EU has limited demagoguery thank goodness. I welcome coalition governments because it locks extremists into unelectable parties with no chance of actual control.

 

I am certainly not homogenised  though increasingly "incompetent" due to old age ?

 

Finally, the history of Europe strongly indicates that having everyone in a club is a good idea.

 

I think free movement can be limited by controlling the numbers per annum by country. Say, no more than 5,000 per annum from a particular country. Also limit total numbers according to population density. That would actually give U.K., Belgium and Netherlands an opt out. Who is negotiating any of this? Not our top minds for sure!  

"I think free movement can be limited by controlling the numbers per annum by country. Say, no more than 5,000 per annum from a particular country. Also limit total numbers according to population density."

 

You mean something like the previous 'system', where those wishing to work in another country had to prove they had been given a job?  If so, I agree.  But those being offered jobs need to be well-paid positions in 'shortage' areas.

 

Which opens a whole new 'can of worms' as to why the uk didn't ensure that enough brits. were trained in fields of work that are now suffering shortages...☹️

[My Thai Life]

Perhaps the advocates of a 2nd referendum should be careful of what they wish for. From The Guardian....

 

"A second referendum on Brexit could lead to social unrest and embolden the extreme right, a member of Labour’s shadow cabinet has said." I agree, except that there isn't going to be a 2nd ref.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/21/labour-mp-says-second-brexit-vote-could-lead-to-social-unrest

Edited August 22, 2018 by My Thai Life

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Wow, you must be a fully paid up shill, right?

Identify where the 'emotion' is in my statement then please, besides a bit of good humour. I don't like the EU, I don't like what it stands for or the people who are behind it, but I don't butt-hurt about it and use ad homonym attacks or emotionally charged nonsense to make my points, that seems to be the preserve of neoliberal remainer types. I have argued legitimately against it (EU) and raised enough valid points that have not really been properly countered by anyone thus far, the fundamental issues don't seem to be registering with most. If you think Greece was deserving of what happened to it, go and have a look into the ECB's accounts before casting judgement. This was all premeditated. 

All in the first sentence  "having to pay extortionate amounts to remain part of the EU "

 

In 2016/17 the UK contribution to the EU was 0.7% of income tax and the INTEREST on the national debt was 5.5%, the 5th highest liability on income tax.

Reign in the emotion and keep things in perspective.

[sandyf]

Something that many do not recognise is that one of the EU's greatest achievements is a non tariff trade barrier. It comes in the form of "standards" in that certain products subject to EU directives are manufactured and tested to the same standard where ever they are produced.
Standards do not mean a great deal to many, if Joe Public is not aware that his well being is at risk and you take away the risk, then he is not any wiser and no benefit is perceived. He cannot see or touch standards so it is an arbitrary concept. He can however see rising costs and find someone to blame, namely the EU. This viewpoint has been supported by the manufacturer as they are a bit reluctant to say they used to sell an inferior product.
Compliance with these EU standards is visible in the form of a CE mark attached to the product. Permission to use the CE mark is granted in the form of certification from an EU agent known as a Notified Body. Product from outside the EU must also be certified and carry the mark under the same regulations. A great deal of product from outside the EU was certified in the UK making a significant contribution to the economy. Brexit has brought that to a halt, from March next year UK Notified Bodies will cease to exist and all existing certification will become invalid.
Not only is the CE mark mandatory within the EEA, it is also required by many exporters to outside the EU under a mutual recognition agreement. Much of UK industry will be dependent on EU standards for the foreseeable future so another deal would need to be dealt with in the no deal scenario.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

47 minutes ago, sandyf said:

All in the first sentence  "having to pay extortionate amounts to remain part of the EU "

 

In 2016/17 the UK contribution to the EU was 0.7% of income tax and the INTEREST on the national debt was 5.5%, the 5th highest liability on income tax.

Reign in the emotion and keep things in perspective.

Hahaha! Yep, definitely a paid up shill, my guess is 'sandyf's' real moniker would appear on Soros' payroll.

 

You can keep trying with the distraction tactics if you like, telling me to rein in (not reign in, get it right) apparent 'emotional outbursts' in an attempt to undermine my argument, but it's a poor tactic to employ, often done so by someone with no real argument, like yourself.

 

And by the way I'm aware that we got a lot of the money we paid into the EU back in terms of tax refunds and grants etc. etc., but the fact remains we were forced to pay a lot into the EU coffers, for what exactly? And now we're required to pay 30bn back in before a deal is decided on / we leave!? Great. Over regulation has stifled industry and business and the customs union and trade bloc restrictions created the inability to make our own trade deals globally. The UK (or any other nation with standards and low enough levels of corruption/lobbying) is able to maintain the same standards and comply with EEA ones when necessary too. Since we are in the driving seat re: huge trade deficit, do you really think for a moment the EEA's top industrial/business giants would penalise the UK over exact specification of reciprocal standards, if it meant they would lose out on selling us all the services and products their businesses rely on? The same argument of course goes for tariffs too.  

 

Our national debt remains a crushing problem and the interest is at this point supposedly 'beyond the point of ever repaying', that is an issue that is not necessarily directly related to the EEA or a symptom of it. I don't think every ill suffered in the UK is the fault of the EEA/EU, honestly! You seem to think you're some kind of expert on the subject, particularly the economic and free trade aspects. Why not listen to an intelligent businessman/scientist with years of experience in the field and take their points on board. 

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIlvsk1dphE

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[BwindiBoy]

4 hours ago, rixalex said:

You're right, an easy and prosperous Brexit didn't exist (I don't think any voter was naive enough to believe it would be easy or would result in instant prosperity); however, an EASIER Brexit DID exist. It didn't have to be THIS difficult. If everyone had accepted the result and got on with delivering it, as was promised prior to the vote, the country wouldn't be in the mess that it is, having spent two years getting nowhere fast.

It would have also been much EASIER had the person leading the country been a passionate supporter of Brexit who believed in what they were trying to achieve. Had remain won it's unthinkable to imagine a leave supporter succeeding Cameron. It would never have happened. May was therefore completely the wrong choice, and not just because she's a remainer, but because she has all the charm and charisma of a common warthog, at a time when the country most needed a talisman (or taliswoman).

So much of the blame for the difficult Brexit lies not with Brexit itself, but with the Tories who have made a hash of it. It also lies with remainers in the establishment at large who spend all their time and effort putting obstacles in the way of a successful Brexit and generally trying to derail it, and then sagely and smugly declare, "see, we told you how difficult Brexit would be".

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Spot on.

[adammike]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Who says none are in favour of a return to a national currency - or at the very least a break from the fetid Euro!?  I think that the majority of people in certain countries are very much in favour of that. Living outside the UK in an international city I meet enough Europeans to tell you that 9/10 I have met are exasperated with the effects the EU and Euro have had on their countries and economies in particular. What are your cast-iron sources that prove I'm peddling fake news, exactly? Don't accuse me of something and then engage in it yourself please, you are being a hypocrite!  

 

 

You name a country that the majority of its population want to ditch the euro.the Greeks didn't, the Italians threaten but it's all bluster,The French voted in Macron on an ultra Pro EU ticket.I live in Europe outside the UK and nobody I know or meet have ever said they want to ditch the euro or even leave the EU.You are just making stuff up.

[rixalex]

You seem to have mistaken democracy for totalitarianism - in a democracy it's possible  for people to hold opposing views and espouse those views in public, even if they are different to the government of the day.
 
Surviving is not the same as prospering and I'd prefer to do the latter.

It's not disagreeing with and fighting against views of the government that makes you anti-democratic, it's disagreeing with and fighting against the outcome of a referendum that does.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[candide]

It has been stated several times in this thread that EU population was increasingly dissatisfied with the EU. Here is what I found. You may notice the Brexit decision effect...

[My Thai Life]

5 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

In the EU we have the freedom to travel, work, live, anywhere in Europe.  That is going to be taken away form me now... and ruined my plans for the future.

Jak, you've made an impassioned case, which in my opinion is worth much more than all the copy and paste we see from the overnight experts.

 

However, even in a "hard exit" you will be free to travel, work and live in Europe. It might take a bit more paperwork, that's all.

Edited August 22, 2018 by My Thai Life

[melvinmelvin]

14 minutes ago, candide said:

It has been stated several times in this thread that EU population was increasingly dissatisfied with the EU. Here is what I found. You may notice the Brexit decision effect...

 

yes, Brexit creates happiness,

clearly, most of EU is looking forward  to getting rid of UK

 

[My Thai Life]

5 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

clearly, most of EU is looking forward  to getting rid of UK

Sure Melvin, especially those countries that are going to have to plug the hole in the budget.

There are lots of Brit-bashers here, us Brits are used to it.

I guess you were making a light-hearted joke, so don't take it personally.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

adammike -

 

You name a country that the majority of its population want to ditch the euro.the Greeks didn't, the Italians threaten but it's all bluster,The French voted in Macron on an ultra Pro EU ticket.I live in Europe outside the UK and nobody I know or meet have ever said they want to ditch the euro or even leave the EU.You are just making stuff up.

 

 

Making it up! Haha, funny stuff. But what you've replied with is (predictably) complete hokum I'm afraid. The majority in most European nations might not be against leaving the EU...yet, for a number of reasons that we could discuss all day. When you say the French (as though they all have one collective voice and mind) voted in Macron on a pro EU ticket, whilst being correct that Macron won the election, you ever so casually disregard the 10.8 million or 35% of those who voted the opposite way, for Le Pen too, not just anyone, the Front Nationale candidate!

35% of the vote (or nearly 11 million people) is a high proportion in anyone's book. And how about the 5 Star party in Italy winning 32.2% of the CoD and Senate votes this year, then there is Hungary and Denmark and the Netherlands who all look set to secede if the conditions prove conducive and the right political moves are made. It is worth considering your sources when reading 'polls' too, I should point out. I have had the opposite experience to you when talking with Europeans here in TH and across SE Asia in fact.

 

Just because you move in circles where Eurosceptic sentiment is unpopular it really doesn't mean that that is the case among vast swathes of the population of many European countries, not just the UK.    

Edited August 22, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Orac]

Hahaha! Yep, definitely a paid up shill, my guess is 'sandyf's' real moniker would appear on Soros' payroll.

 

You can keep trying with the distraction tactics if you like, telling me to rein in (not reign in, get it right) apparent 'emotional outbursts' in an attempt to undermine my argument, but it's a poor tactic to employ, often done so by someone with no real argument, like yourself.

 

And by the way I'm aware that we got a lot of the money we paid into the EU back in terms of tax refunds and grants etc. etc., but the fact remains we were forced to pay a lot into the EU coffers, for what exactly? And now we're required to pay 30bn back in before a deal is decided on / we leave!? Great. Over regulation has stifled industry and business and the customs union and trade bloc restrictions created the inability to make our own trade deals globally. The UK (or any other nation with standards and low enough levels of corruption/lobbying) is able to maintain the same standards and comply with EEA ones when necessary too. Since we are in the driving seat re: huge trade deficit, do you really think for a moment the EEA's top industrial/business giants would penalise the UK over exact specification of reciprocal standards, if it meant they would lose out on selling us all the services and products their businesses rely on? The same argument of course goes for tariffs too.  

 

Our national debt remains a crushing problem and the interest is at this point supposedly 'beyond the point of ever repaying', that is an issue that is not necessarily directly related to the EEA or a symptom of it. I don't think every ill suffered in the UK is the fault of the EEA/EU, honestly! You seem to think you're some kind of expert on the subject, particularly the economic and free trade aspects. Why not listen to an intelligent businessman/scientist with years of experience in the field and take their points on board. 

 

 

 

 

He has certainly changed his tune a bit. A few years back he claimed it would be suicide for us not to join the euro and threatened to move his manufacturing overseas - something he did soon after.

[tebee]

54 minutes ago, rixalex said:

It's not disagreeing with and fighting against views of the government that makes you anti-democratic, it's disagreeing with and fighting against the outcome of a referendum that does.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Why is a referendum different to a GE - if my party lost in one I'd not be expected to support the winning one instead ?

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

11 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

He certainly seems to have changed his tune a bit about the EU. A few years back he was claiming it was suicide for us not to join the euro and threatened to move his manufacturing out of the UK which he subsequently did.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

I'm aware of the irony, fair enough point to make, but he does explain, in part, why he moved manufacturing out of the UK. Exorbitant interest rates being the major factor. To be fair though, the company did reinvest heavily in the HQ in Malmesbury, set up a new high tech campus on the former RAF Hullavington Airfield in Wiltshire near Dyson HQ and still supposedly employs around 2000 people in the UK while its relocation to Malaysia/SGP created the loss of 65 jobs. The euro issue, I'm not aware of, possibly had sound reasoning at the time, I can't for the life of me see what it would have been, but hey. In any case I'm not hear to defend Mr.Dyson, business is business and its primarily about making profit after all, I am advocating his reasoning for us leaving the EU and the potential benefits, as someone in his position would understand better than most. He is one of many business people/entrepreneurs who expound the same brexit advocacy.  

Edited August 22, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[adammike]

4 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

adammike -

 

You name a country that the majority of its population want to ditch the euro.the Greeks didn't, the Italians threaten but it's all bluster,The French voted in Macron on an ultra Pro EU ticket.I live in Europe outside the UK and nobody I know or meet have ever said they want to ditch the euro or even leave the EU.You are just making stuff up.

 

 

Making it up! Haha, funny stuff. But what you've replied with is (predictably) complete hokum I'm afraid. The majority in most European nations might not be against leaving the EU...yet, for a number of reasons that we could discuss all day. When you say the French (as though they all have one collective voice and mind) voted in Macron on a pro EU ticket, whilst being correct that Macron won the election, you ever so casually disregard the 10.8 million or 35% of those who voted the opposite way, for Le Pen too, not just anyone, the Front Nationale candidate!

35% of the vote (or nearly 11 million people) is a high proportion in anyone's book. And how about the 5 Star party in Italy winning 32.2% of the CoD and Senate votes this year, then there is Hungary and Denmark and the Netherlands who all look set to secede if the conditions prove conducive and the right political moves are made. It is worth considering your sources when reading 'polls' too, I should point out. I have had the opposite experience to you when talking with Europeans here in TH and across SE Asia in fact.

 

Just because you move in circles where Eurosceptic sentiment is unpopular it really doesn't mean that that is the case among vast swathes of the population of ALL European countries, not just the UK.    

Brexit has focused minds in the rest of the EU in favour of the EU ,Of course there is opposition to the ruling government in every country and opposition to the euro and the EU.The countries that have been in trouble the so called PIGS should never have been allowed into the euro zone Greece especially cooked the books,In fact more than a few countries are going through the process of joining the Euro.You won't hear anything positive sitting in a bar in Pattaya or reading most of the British press.The Netherlands is not going to leave the EU you are making that up I live there.I guess that Brussels would breath a sigh of relief if Hungary left.

[adammike]

11 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

He has certainly changed his tune a bit. A few years back he claimed it would be suicide for us not to join the euro and threatened to move his manufacturing overseas - something he did soon after.

Along with the guy who owned weatherspoons they want out of the EU mainly because they can't force people to work more than 48 hours a week,and a lot off health and safety and workers rights over holidays ,sick pay are EU directives.Be carefull what you wish for.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

14 minutes ago, adammike said:

Brexit has focused minds in the rest of the EU in favour of the EU ,Of course there is opposition to the ruling government in every country and opposition to the euro and the EU.The countries that have been in trouble the so called PIGS should never have been allowed into the euro zone Greece especially cooked the books,In fact more than a few countries are going through the process of joining the Euro.You won't hear anything positive sitting in a bar in Pattaya or reading most of the British press.The Netherlands is not going to leave the EU you are making that up I live there.I guess that Brussels would breath a sigh of relief if Hungary left.

Typical retort...My views are those of a bigoted Pattaya barfly who only reads the British tabloids all day over a full English wearing an England football shirt, right? Yada yada yada... You answered none of my points either, other than apparently stating that because you live there you know the minds of all 17m of the Netherlands' inhabitants. I never said that NED will leave, being part of the eurozone and a founder member of the ECC makes that a very different prospect than it does for the UK for example. I am saying I have read from a wide number of sources that NED has a growing minority who would favour a referendum and that there is increasing Euroscepticism, as there is in a great many EEA member states. Can't say I blame them either.

I have spoken with a number of Dutch nationals around SE Asia, mostly in BKK, where I live, who favour it also. They aren't all old jaded alcoholic expats either, as I'm sure you might assume.

 

And yes, boot Hungary out! A country of utterly racist, parochial little bigots lead by a President and cabinet of backward looking gangsters.... the staunchly pro-EU party line goes something like that right?  ?

Edited August 22, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[welovesundaysatspace]

32 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I have had the opposite experience to you when talking with Europeans here in TH and across SE Asia in fact.

And I had a completely different experience. Now what?

 

Maybe check what those people you talk to earn, work, and have in their brains. Because based on my experience, that’s a pretty good indicator for their opinion towards the EU and many other topics:

 

The less educated, smart, financially stable and professional they are, the more likely will they be against the EU (and basically everything, as long as they can be against it), usually based on the same nonsense you hear from Brexiteers (I.e. accusations, paranoia, conspiracy theories, and castles in the sky lacking any factual evidence). 

Edited August 22, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 minute ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

And I had a completely different experience. Now what?

 

Maybe check what those people you talk to earn, work, and have in their brains. Because based on my experience, that’s a pretty good indicator for their opinion towards the EU and many other topics:

 

The less educated, smart, financially stable and professional they are, the more likely will they be against the EU (and basically everything, as long as they can be against it), usually based on the same nonsense you hear from Brexiteers (I.e. accusations, paranoia, and conspiracy theories lacking any factual evidence). 

You sound like you could be the next President of the EU, pal.

[My Thai Life]

4 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

The less educated, smart, financially stable and professional they are, the more likely will they be against the EU

This is an appalling statement. Maybe the "older" generation received less tertiary education because tertiary education wasn't widely available when they were young. Maybe working class people received less tertiary level education because Thatcher took away "free" student grants, and Blair/Brown fine-tuned her policy. And the apprenticeships were ditched to boot.

 

Maybe those two groups are less stable financially and don't have professional jobs because they were deprived of a tertiary education. Never mind the "gig" economy.

 

Statements like yours are exactly the reason many people voted to leave, and you still don't get it. You are a perfect advert for Leave.

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

3 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

 

Statements like yours are exactly the reason many people voted to leave, and you still don't get it. You are a perfect advert for Leave.

I’m just sharing my personal experience. And don’t pretend to be surprised. Basically every poll analysis shows that those voting for Brexit, Le Pen, Wilders, AfD, Pis, Trump, etc. tend to share those similarities. 

[Grouse]

On 8/21/2018 at 3:55 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

“Having less say in our own affairs and less control from our age-old parliament is the right thing for us, as a nation?”

 

Putting aside the UK within the EU remains a sovereign nation with a sovereign Parliament, you seem to have missed the very real threat to Parliaments sovereignty that came, not from the EU but from Theresa May and her cabinet.

 

Theresa May’s Government have made repeated attempts to evade Parliamentary scrutiny and govern by executive decree.

 

She and her Government were only thwarted by the intervention of the House of Lords and the High Court. The latter when ‘enemies of the people’ made legal challenge to stop the Government governing by executive decree.

 

The enemy of British Parliamentary sovereignty is residing in No 10.

Actually, I find EU influence a comfort and a tangible benefit in many ways. I am well travelled and I can tell you that, sadly, the U.K. Is far from being top of the class in many areas. We retain excellence in certain fields such as academe generally and many art forms. I will retire to Denmark

[Grouse]

On 8/21/2018 at 4:00 PM, Sir Dude said:

Tell that to the ECJ...haha

For an issue as serious as this, you really should read up a little more an avoid making asinine comments....

[BwindiBoy]

30 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I’m just sharing my personal experience. And don’t pretend to be surprised. Basically every poll analysis shows that those voting for Brexit, Le Pen, Wilders, AfD, Pis, Trump, etc. tend to share those similarities. 

Nonsense