UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, nauseus said:

But the French farmers still get the biggest subsidies from the EU.  I don't respect that. 

Is that true?  I don't doubt it, but it needs verification.

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

quote from your post. "We can only hope that common sense prevails and agreement is reached." For that to happen common sense must apply to both sides.

 

I doubt that the UK will come to a complete standstill after Brexit.

 

That is a bit of a distortion Bill, I said "Without agreements the UK will come to a standstill" and that is a fact. Aviation being the most obvious, that along with many other issues, requires an agreement with the EU.

 I agree in principle that it will not come to that, if it does then there will be an extension to Art 50 to keep things moving.

 

The leavers appear to be hung up on negotiation despite the fact they chose that course of action. The EU can only negotiate within the rules of the EU and if the UK asks to breach the rules of the EU then it is a non starter. The UK was perfectly aware of what rules would be applied before they invoked Article 50 but are incapable of sticking to their side of the agreement.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, rixalex said:

Re the comment about those who are happy enough to see no agreement reached, can there really be people out there who still don't understand the need for the other side to know that the opposition is ready to walk away if no concessions are met?
 

Absolute fallacy. The UK cannot walk away and everyone knows that, despite what they say.

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, aright said:

Common sense is not bandied around much in negotiation ……….

And it wasn't meant to.

Ok I opened the door to your misinterpretation so to clarify -  We can only hope that common sense prevails within the UK government and agreement is reached.

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Absolute fallacy. The UK cannot walk away and everyone knows that, despite what they say.

Neither can the eu - as many of their countries' businesses generate a huge amount of their income from exporting to the uk.

[dick dasterdly]

22 minutes ago, sandyf said:

That is a bit of a distortion Bill, I said "Without agreements the UK will come to a standstill" and that is a fact. Aviation being the most obvious, that along with many other issues, requires an agreement with the EU.

 I agree in principle that it will not come to that, if it does then there will be an extension to Art 50 to keep things moving.

 

The leavers appear to be hung up on negotiation despite the fact they chose that course of action. The EU can only negotiate within the rules of the EU and if the UK asks to breach the rules of the EU then it is a non starter. The UK was perfectly aware of what rules would be applied before they invoked Article 50 but are incapable of sticking to their side of the agreement.

"I said "Without agreements the UK will come to a standstill" and that is a fact. Aviation being the most obvious".

 

Are you trying to pretend that aviation within the uk will "come to a standstill" in the event of 'no deal'? 

 

As you say "it will not come to that" - so why keep posting it??

 

Are you beginning to understand why many of the electorate/posters are more than tired of 'project fear'?

Edited September 16, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[rixalex]

Absolute fallacy. The UK cannot walk away and everyone knows that, despite what they say.

Of course the UK can walk away. It doesn't want to, but the world won't stop turning if it does. It's amazing the level of hysteria that has been ramped up over this, and how many people have bought into it. You'd think there was no life before the EU.

It really is a wonder how some remainers manage to leave the safety of their homes, let alone take advantage of freedom of movement.

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[candide]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

But the French farmers still get the biggest subsidies from the EU.  I don't respect that. 

It's true but one needs to consider the net contribution to the CAP (CAP inflows less contribution to CAP budget). Since 2014, France is a net contributor to the CAP (albeit a small one). The largest net contributor is by far Germany, followed by the NL. The largest beneficiary is Poland. Most beneficiaries are East-European countries, except Spain and Greece.

[aright]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

That is a bit of a distortion Bill, I said "Without agreements the UK will come to a standstill" and that is a fact. Aviation being the most obvious, that along with many other issues, requires an agreement with the EU.

 I agree in principle that it will not come to that, if it does then there will be an extension to Art 50 to keep things moving.

 

The leavers appear to be hung up on negotiation despite the fact they chose that course of action. The EU can only negotiate within the rules of the EU and if the UK asks to breach the rules of the EU then it is a non starter. The UK was perfectly aware of what rules would be applied before they invoked Article 50 but are incapable of sticking to their side of the agreement.

With such negative thoughts you really would make the worst negotiator in the world . You would approach the table knowing the argument was already lost. In negotiations honesty and common sense are secondary to defined outcomes.

My negotiating mantra came from Roger Darlingtons  "Lawrence of Arabia" when Sharif Ali said:...

"Truly, for some men, nothing is written unless they write it"

[Henryford]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

quote from your post. "We can only hope that common sense prevails and agreement is reached." For that to happen common sense must apply to both sides.

 

I doubt that the UK will come to a complete standstill after Brexit.

 

The problem is one of negotiation and in the last couple of years from what I have seen and read is that every proposal that the UK has put to the EU has been rejected for some reason or another. So there has not really been ANY negotiation since Brexit started.

 

Negotiation  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotiation

 

It is aimed to resolve points of difference, to gain advantage for an individual or collective, or to craft outcomes to satisfy various interests. It is often conducted by putting forward a position and making concessions to achieve an agreement. The degree to which the negotiating parties trust each other to implement the negotiated solution is a major factor in determining whether negotiations are successful.

 

https://www.skillsyouneed.com/ips/negotiation.html

 

In order to achieve a desirable outcome, it may be useful to follow a structured approach to negotiation. For example, in a work situation a meeting may need to be arranged in which all parties involved can come together.

The process of negotiation includes the following stages:

Preparation

Discussion

Clarification of goals

Negotiate towards a Win-Win outcome

Agreement

Implementation of a course of action

 

Read more at: https://www.skillsyouneed.com/ips/negotiation.html

 

IMHO if one side is not willing to negotiate then no agreement can be reached.

 

From what I have seen and read over the last couple of years the attitude of the EU negotiating team has been "Whatever you want, the answer's NO".   

But Treason May's attitude has been "What ever you want the answer is yes".

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Of course the UK can walk away. It doesn't want to, but the world won't stop turning if it does. It's amazing the level of hysteria that has been ramped up over this, and how many people have bought into it. You'd think there was no life before the EU.

It really is a wonder how some remainers manage to leave the safety of their homes, let alone take advantage of freedom of movement.

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What a silly comment. 

 

The World has moved on in the last 40 years. You want go back that far?

 

Do yourself a favour and look at UK GDP since the war and tell me what you conclude. ?

[Grouse]

51 minutes ago, aright said:

With such negative thoughts you really would make the worst negotiator in the world . You would approach the table knowing the argument was already lost. In negotiations honesty and common sense are secondary to defined outcomes.

My negotiating mantra came from Roger Darlingtons  "Lawrence of Arabia" when Sharif Ali said:...

"Truly, for some men, nothing is written unless they write it"

Look, we're not selling a house or a car without an MOT or your Darth Vader in original box! These days, more or less everyone knows everything. The EU KNOW it is a stupid move for the UK to leave. The UK government knows this. The majority of the UK know this. What is there to negotiate? What wood the coffin should be made from?

 

bbbbb but we had a referendum 2 years ago and the pppp people said leave mmm.

 

What a ridiculous situation. I never thought I'd see the UK reduced to a laughing stock. How embarrassing.

 

Stop this right now and watch the sun come out and the economy blossom!

[Grouse]

52 minutes ago, Henryford said:

But Treason May's attitude has been "What ever you want the answer is yes".

Spell the bloody woman's name right please!

 

She is clearly trying to steer a path between the morons and the hyenas. Did you hear Vince Cable on Andrew Marr? Wise words.

 

I reckon the article 50 will be extended for 6 months to allow for "The People's" vote between the best ( ? )deal and remain. 

 

Who's idea was it to ask "the people" in the first place? What an idiot! Hopefully it will be a harsh winter.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, candide said:

It's true but one needs to consider the net contribution to the CAP (CAP inflows less contribution to CAP budget). Since 2014, France is a net contributor to the CAP (albeit a small one). The largest net contributor is by far Germany, followed by the NL. The largest beneficiary is Poland. Most beneficiaries are East-European countries, except Spain and Greece.

The sub topic was the CAP. France is and always has been the biggest beneficiary by far, averaging 7 Billion Euros per year, recently. 

 

https://ec.europa.eu/info/publications/cap-your-country_en

 

Britain is 5th in the farm subsidy rankings. It's a con and one of the big reasons to get out.

[aright]

21 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Look, we're not selling a house or a car without an MOT or your Darth Vader in original box! These days, more or less everyone knows everything. The EU KNOW it is a stupid move for the UK to leave. The UK government knows this. The majority of the UK know this. What is there to negotiate? What wood the coffin should be made from?

 

bbbbb but we had a referendum 2 years ago and the pppp people said leave mmm.

 

What a ridiculous situation. I never thought I'd see the UK reduced to a laughing stock. How embarrassing.

 

Stop this right now and watch the sun come out and the economy blossom!

Which wagon in the circle is yours?

[brewsterbudgen]

Spell the bloody woman's name right please!
 
She is clearly trying to steer a path between the morons and the hyenas. Did you hear Vince Cable on Andrew Marr? Wise words.
 
I reckon the article 50 will be extended for 6 months to allow for "The People's" vote between the best ( [emoji23] )deal and remain. 
 
Who's idea was it to ask "the people" in the first place? What an idiot! Hopefully it will be a harsh winter.

I think you're right. A "no deal" scenario will be avoided even if it means egg on TM's face. Time for reflection and then an informed People's vote should put the whole fiasco to bed.

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[Jim1000]

Can't we all just kiss and make up ?

[candide]

19 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The sub topic was the CAP. France is and always has been the biggest beneficiary by far, averaging 7 Billion Euros per year, recently. 

 

https://ec.europa.eu/info/publications/cap-your-country_en

 

Britain is 5th in the farm subsidy rankings. It's a con and one of the big reasons to get out.

My post was only about CAP.

 

France is the main CAP beneficiary but not a net beneficiary (it contributes more to the CAP budget than it receives). Practically, it means that UK does not subsidise French agriculture (I infer that was your concern). It subsidises agriculture in Poland, Greece, Spain and various East-European countries.

[Sir Dude]

WTO rules is not the end of the world and it would only be for a short time as many countries scramble to make a deal with the UK. Thing is, business in general is selfish and greedy plus couldn't care less what the average person wants/votes for...the all consuming acquisition of money supersedes all else and anything that gets in the way is to be attacked and scorned. It is an embarrassment that megacorps and business call all the shots now and governments can't do as they want. What we are seeing here is the elite NWO throwing the dummy out of the pram because the public voted for the "wrong choice" in a binding referendum that was made perfectly clear that it was of such nature...same as the Scottish one, do you think there would be a second binding referendum on the Scottish issue of it had gone the other way? Well, be careful what you ask the average person in the street when they often get the sh%t end of the stick mostly.

 

In hindsight, the only use for a referendum is to gauge the public's opinion and then political parties announce their plans in respect of it and take note of the public's opinion. People then vote for what party they want in a general election and a referendum should not be binding...as you can't keep on having the binding neverendum situation as that would be chaos. I hope all the political morons have learned their lesson on this front and stop this fixation with binding referendums...as only trouble and discourse will they find.

[HAKAPALITA]

9 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

I think you're right. A "no deal" scenario will be avoided even if it means egg on TM's face. Time for reflection and then an informed People's vote should put the whole fiasco to bed.

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Should have had Gordon Ramsey type Brit to negotiate.Why dont you lefties just ...................., job done,!

[aright]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

What a silly comment. 

 

The World has moved on in the last 40 years. You want go back that far?

 

Do yourself a favour and look at UK GDP since the war and tell me what you conclude. ?

GDP can be misleading. Try GDP per capita (IMF).

No need to go back 40 years,  todays results will do.We are currently 26th in the world. Ahead of us Canada, Australia and 13 other countries not in the EU.

[rixalex]

What a silly comment. 
 
The World has moved on in the last 40 years. You want go back that far?
 
Do yourself a favour and look at UK GDP since the war and tell me what you conclude. [emoji85]

No I don't want to go back. The world has moved on and so has the EU. The EU as it originated was a positive thing and we were right to join it. It has since morphed into something completely different. If other EU nations are happy being a member of it, good luck to them.

Time for Britain to take a new direction.

It's a shame that remainers still can't accept this and still refuse to accept they lost. It's self-defeating ultimately because if they do manage to overturn democracy, what was once a fairly subdued anti-EU sentiment in minority quarters prior to 2016, will become something ten times larger and louder. It won't just be Farage barking on about it. And telling them that the decision has been made and they have to accept it, will be as hollow as a very hollow thing.

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[candide]

29 minutes ago, aright said:

GDP can be misleading. Try GDP per capita (IMF).

No need to go back 40 years,  todays results will do.We are currently 26th in the world. Ahead of us Canada, Australia and 13 other countries not in the EU.

You are too modest. Actually, UK ranks 22nd, and among "other countries" several atypical countries such as Macau, Singapore, Quatar, Hong Kong, San Marino, Iceland, or countries that are strongly associated to the EU (Norway, Switzerland).

[bristolboy]

17 minutes ago, candide said:

You are too modest. Actually, UK ranks 22nd, and among "other countries" several atypical countries such as Macau, Singapore, Quatar, Hong Kong, San Marino, Iceland, or countries that are strongly associated to the EU (Norway, Switzerland).

It depends on whether you're using nominal or ppp for the rankings. In PPP,  which gets a better fix on real productivity, the UK ranks anywhere form 24-30. But that said quite a few of the entities taking precedence are places like Jersey or Guernsey which technically qualify as independent nations but are basically tax shelterss or hydrocarban rich nations (Brunei) or GDP based on accounting tricks (Ireland). If you eliminate the dodgy ones I'd say it ranks 13th or 14th.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

But if you're referring to standards of living for the majority of its people, as measured by the GINI index, I'd say it ranks quite a bit lower. 

[tebee]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

The sub topic was the CAP. France is and always has been the biggest beneficiary by far, averaging 7 Billion Euros per year, recently. 

 

https://ec.europa.eu/info/publications/cap-your-country_en

 

Britain is 5th in the farm subsidy rankings. It's a con and one of the big reasons to get out.

That is mostly because France is a much bigger country and has much more farming land.

[aright]

31 minutes ago, candide said:

You are too modest. Actually, UK ranks 22nd, and among "other countries" several atypical countries such as Macau, Singapore, Quatar, Hong Kong, San Marino, Iceland, or countries that are strongly associated to the EU (Norway, Switzerland).

I don't do modest? and perhaps a trip to Specsavers might help? Sorry! no disrespect.

My quoted figures were from 2017 IMF (I quoted) lists which has them at 26. World Bank was 24 and the CIA at 30. Not that its important but where did 22 come from?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

 

 

 

[tebee]

1 hour ago, brewsterbudgen said:

I think you're right. A "no deal" scenario will be avoided even if it means egg on TM's face. Time for reflection and then an informed People's vote should put the whole fiasco to bed.

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I'm not entirely sure how we will avoid a "no deal" scenario - we have just over 6 months left and it would appear no one has any ideas that can be generally accepted.

[ostyan]

Brussel is just a flock of political gangsters. Many of them have completed primary (8 grades) school, some others are nominated to do something that they have no graduated. e.g. Sargentini. They attacked Hungary, not the government of it, by an absolutely unfair and untrue report. The election and the debate of this negotiation were not conforming to any rules of the EU, the Lisbon treaty and the other regulations of the EU. Why? Because the Hungarian government has been elected democratic elections and the Hungarian people are against the illegal migration and George Soros. A lot of  "politicians" are the just alcoholic butler of this old gangster.

Now they are to do the same with Italy and Poland. 

 

Why on the Earth would any serious Brit stay in this pot? Why they would wait until Brussel punishes them too for any trumped-up false accusations.

The EU is dead.

Edited September 16, 2018 by ostyan

[bristolboy]

33 minutes ago, aright said:

I don't do modest? and perhaps a trip to Specsavers might help? Sorry! no disrespect.

My quoted figures were from 2017 IMF (I quoted) lists which has them at 26. World Bank was 24 and the CIA at 30. Not that its important but where did 22 come from?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

 

 

 

Based on nominal GDP

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, HAKAPALITA said:

Should have had Gordon Ramsey type Brit to negotiate.Why dont you lefties just ...................., job done,!

Nothing to do with "lefties"

 

I think you mean intellectuals as opposed to, er, the misguided.