UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[CG1 Blue]

50 minutes ago, tebee said:

Post-brexit the UK will be a third party country that equivalence terminated and UK  qualifications will have to be reevaluated. 

 

See https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/file_import/professional_qualifications_en.pdf

 

So my stepson wants to be a surgeon. If he qualifies in the UK, but then wants to work in Germany he first has to pass the German Approbation test

And you know this for sure do you - that UK qualifications will have to be re-evaluated post-Brexit? Or are you speculating?

 

Do you believe a candidate who obtained the qualification from Lithuania or Slovenia will be more in demand than someone who qualified in the UK?

[tebee]

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

And you know this for sure do you - that UK qualifications will have to be re-evaluated post-Brexit? Or are you speculating?

 

Do you believe a candidate who obtained the qualification from Lithuania or Slovenia will be more in demand than someone who qualified in the UK?

Yes

 

Concerning EU-27 nationals, qualifications obtained in the United Kingdom
(hereafter "UK professional qualifications") as of the withdrawal date are third
country qualifications for the purpose of EU law. 

[melvinmelvin]

2 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

And you know this for sure do you - that UK qualifications will have to be re-evaluated post-Brexit? Or are you speculating?

 

Do you believe a candidate who obtained the qualification from Lithuania or Slovenia will be more in demand than someone who qualified in the UK?

 

I think discussing physicians, dentists and the like is a bad choice.

 

Such people MUST have knowledge about local social medicine,

ie rules for prescriptions and possible refunds

rules for prescribing off the main road medicine

rules for sick leaves etc etc

 

[Jim1000]

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 10:27 PM, CG1 Blue said:

Yes, wouldn't that be nice.  Waking up and realising that all these attempts to derail Brexit were just a bad dream...

CG right now if I woke up after a 28 month bad dream I would probably be in an " excitable state ' not least because there would be a pile of baht  notes  on the table which are not there right now , frankly .

Regarding the previous nonsense about being free from the Euto tyranny etc well I'm sorry to say all that can go where a certain submarine should go . The squabbling politicians aren't up to it I'm afraid .

[billd766]

2 hours ago, rixalex said:

Again, you are presuming to know inside the mind of 17 million voters. Presuming to know why they voted the way they did. Presuming that they bought in to all of the campaign rhetoric that was being pumped out from both sides. Presuming they weren't smart enough to have figured out that leaving was short term more likely to bring with it economic and political problems, than staying, but that the long term benefits would make it worth it. Presuming they didn't know that the 350 million for the NHS was dependent on a number of factors. A lot of presuming in short, with the general theme of you are smarter than them. They should all believe you. A man living and working in France, and whose family and work is closely tied in with being a member of the EU. No vested interests there then. A completely objective and unbiased viewpoint.

 

You cast doubt on whether those leading Brexit really care about those who voted Brexit, and you may well be right, they all seem pretty hopeless, but are we really expected to believe you have their interests in mind either? Certainty doesn't sound like it. Just another one who thinks they know better.

 

 

 

But AFAIR tebee didn't even vote in the referendum for whatever reason.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Huh? Why is this nonsense of ridiculous? Do you really believe a doctor can just practice wherever he wants to, because his degree is being equally recognized everywhere? I am too lazy to google the actual regulations now, but what I can tell you is that a Thai girl that I used to date who is a doctor at a big hospital here in Bangkok, had exactly the same issue when her western boyfriend asked her to just move to Europe with him. In his mind, it was all going to be super easy. Turns out she cannot just take her degree and practice in Europe. 

 

Equally a doctor from Europe cannot just take a degree and practice in Thailand or the USA or whatever without any hassle. There will be exams to qualify for though in Thailand the doctors degree is not worth as much in Europe or elsewhere.

[welovesundaysatspace]

6 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Equally a doctor from Europe cannot just take a degree and practice in Thailand or the USA or whatever without any hassle. There will be exams to qualify for though in Thailand the doctors degree is not worth as much in Europe or elsewhere.

...but a doctor who studied in the EU can practice in the EU. So I understand why someone who’s about to start studying to be a doctor would change his mind and get his degree in an EU country rather than the UK. 

 

So this is far from „nonsense“ as someone put it. 

Edited September 18, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, rixalex said:

Again, you are presuming to know inside the mind of 17 million voters. Presuming to know why they voted the way they did. Presuming that they bought in to all of the campaign rhetoric that was being pumped out from both sides. Presuming they weren't smart enough to have figured out that leaving was short term more likely to bring with it economic and political problems, than staying, but that the long term benefits would make it worth it. Presuming they didn't know that the 350 million for the NHS was dependent on a number of factors. A lot of presuming in short, with the general theme of you are smarter than them. They should all believe you. A man living and working in France, and whose family and work is closely tied in with being a member of the EU. No vested interests there then. A completely objective and unbiased viewpoint.

 

You cast doubt on whether those leading Brexit really care about those who voted Brexit, and you may well be right, they all seem pretty hopeless, but are we really expected to believe you have their interests in mind either? Certainty doesn't sound like it. Just another one who thinks they know better.

 

 

I think Teebee shows a strong streak of altruism

 

His analysis has great deal of truth in it

 

As far as knowing better is concerned, if the BBC's selection of Brexiters from Mansfield is anything to go by, then yes, far better! (Brexit will bring back coal mining! ?)

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Whereas the EU is the ultimate proletariat utopia, devoid of faceless fat cats who have never benefited one iota / reaped the financial rewards of the progression of this forced political, financial and customs union. 

 

As I stated some time ago in a previous post:

 

'When Germany agreed to shed the Dmark and adopt the Euro under ECB/EP/EC suggestion, it was a quid pro quo for not issuing centralised debt. In other words all debt issuance has been made through sovereign entities rather than the EU/ECB; so there is no intention of sharing deficits at a "federal"level. That is why the ECB is now buying in sovereign and corporate bonds from individual countries in order to provide liquidity.'

 

So anyone who believes that the EEA/EU is in any way for the people by the people is simply living in a fantasy land or being willfully disingenuous and deluding themselves. Not to mention the myriad of other criminal and wholly undemocratic behaviour that the federation engages in AND the issue of the lack of sovereignty / control of our own country's affairs at a fundamental level while we remain part of it - which is, in my (and many others') opinion, the real crux of the matter. In 25 years time we will look back at all this and see it for what it is, a lucky escape.

Social democracy? You won't find it in America! Look at the Gini coefficients, look where happy countries are....

 

The EU is far from perfect but there are many far worse places.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Well the brexiters on the whole are toffs"

 

Do you really believe that those who voted for brexit are "toffs"?  But I understand your point to a certain extent.

 

"the brexit that was promised is not the one that is going to be delivered."

 

Yes, this seems more than likely....

 

Can't be bothered to respond to the rest of your post - other than agreeing that either way, there's little doubt that the wealthy will continue to thrive.

 

The more important (IMO) question, is whether those at the bottom of the pyramid will be helped by the prevention of cheap labour from poor eu countries.

No. You're going to get even cheaper labour and dirt cheap (I do mean dirt) food from any hell hole around the world. The EU barriers are there for a reason. Have you worked out what it is yet? (You will when your fence starts getting painted in creosote rather than Cuprinol!)

[CG1 Blue]

40 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

...but a doctor who studied in the EU can practice in the EU. So I understand why someone who’s about to start studying to be a doctor would change his mind and get his degree in an EU country rather than the UK. 

 

So this is far from „nonsense“ as someone put it. 

Ok, "nonsense" may have been a bit strong. But I don't think it's productive (or healthy) to always assume the worst case scenario.

A lot of these issues will be smoothed out over the coming months and years.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Precisely. Hailing from the city that's home to the second oldest university in the English speaking world or 'third oldest in the world' and consistently ranked in the top 3 in terms of prestige and acclaim and responsible for graduating some of THE most eminent minds in all history, in multiple fields - this kind of frivolous remark really gets my goat, and seems to be so predictably typical of the mindset of so many misinformed people (who tend to be staunch Europhiles). Aren't we aware that before the EU existed, the UK never did anything of any worth!?!? ? 

Were you up at Cambridge personally? Otherwise reduce the pomposity please. 

 

All our top universities have benefitted from global support. Of course the Cons want to limit this by tightening educational visas and clamping down on postgraduate employment. Morons

[CG1 Blue]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

No. You're going to get even cheaper labour and dirt cheap (I do mean dirt) food from any hell hole around the world. The EU barriers are there for a reason. Have you worked out what it is yet? (You will when your fence starts getting painted in creosote rather than Cuprinol!)

Is it not true that a lot of tariffs are added to imported food in order to protect EU farmers, e.g. French pig farmers?

And therefore businesses are forced to buy over priced French meat in order to avoid the tariffs?

 

I don't think it's all about consumer protection.

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Is it not true that a lot of tariffs are added to imported food in order to protect EU farmers, e.g. French pig farmers?

And therefore businesses are forced to buy over priced French meat in order to avoid the tariffs?

 

I don't think it's all about consumer protection.

Think about the economics

 

pay farmers well for their produce

 

pay labour well for their production

 

Abracadabra you have a population who can afford to by relatively expensive but high quality products

 

Quality is key; did you ever read Robin Persig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance?

 

Look at Apple

 

Go after quality, not price and protect your workers.

 

Danish Bacon is excellent; who cares that you could buy cheaper bacon from Nigeria?

[bristolboy]

9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Think about the economics

 

pay farmers well for their produce

 

pay labour well for their production

 

Abracadabra you have a population who can afford to by relatively expensive but high quality products

 

Quality is key; did you ever read Robin Persig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance?

 

Look at Apple

 

Go after quality, not price and protect your workers.

 

Danish Bacon is excellent; who cares that you could buy cheaper bacon from Nigeria?

I think there's more a choice than between EU produced food and food from poor nations.

That said, there is a social dimension to this best illustrated by countries where the rural population is not protected as in the case of the USA. 

It isn't just France whose rural population gets some protection but also poorer agricultural workers in Eastern Europe as well as other parts of the EU.

The system isn't close to perfect, It's got lots of problems. But the cost isn't all that much when compared to the budgets of the various EU nations. And even smaller when GDP is taken into account.

[welovesundaysatspace]

51 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

 But I don't think it's productive (or healthy) to always assume the worst case scenario.

As of today, what I wrote is not an assumption, but how things are. 

 

51 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

A lot of these issues will be smoothed out over the coming months and years.

Not sure how much money you have, but for most people, studying to become a doctor is quite a financial investment. So I can completely understand that someone who’s about to start becoming a surgeon puts that investment to where it creates the best outcome under the highest probability. What’s the point of investing in an U.K. degree hoping that you might be able to practice in the EU in some years, where could just study in the EU and be sure that you can practice there right from the start (and maybe in the U.K. in a couple of years later)?

[tebee]

Others are preparing for no deal too 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/bmw-to-shut-mini-factory-for-a-month-after-brexit-day-sky-sources-11501360

[bristolboy]

36 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

As of today, what I wrote is not an assumption, but how things are. 

 

Not sure how much money you have, but for most people, studying to become a doctor is quite a financial investment. So I can completely understand that someone who’s about to start becoming a surgeon puts that investment to where it creates the best outcome under the highest probability. What’s the point of investing in an U.K. degree hoping that you might be able to practice in the EU in some years, where could just study in the EU and be sure that you can practice there right from the start (and maybe in the U.K. in a couple of years later)?

On the other hand, a weaker pound could make it more attractive.

[bristolboy]

Rightwing thinktanks unveil radical plan for US-UK Brexit trade deal

A radical blueprint for a free trade deal between the UK and the US that would see the NHS opened to foreign competition, a bonfire of consumer and environmental regulations and freedom of movement between the two countries for workers, is to be launched by prominent Brexiters.

The blueprint will be seen as significant because of the close links between the organisations behind it and the UK secretary for international trade, Liam Fox, and the US president, Donald Trump…

The text of the new trade deal has been prepared by the Initiative for Free Trade (IFT) – a thinktank founded by the longtime Eurosceptic MEP Daniel Hannan, one of the leaders of Vote Leave – and the Cato Institute, a rightwing libertarian thinktank in the US founded and funded by the fossil fuel magnates and major political donors the Koch family.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/18/rightwing-thinktanks-unveil-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs

[dunroaming]

3 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Hmmm, that is a MUCH more difficult question to answer, but I realise I didn't answer it in my prior reply.

 

I wouldn't even presume to be able to answer right now to be honest, as it's such a s**t-show at the moment and there are so many variables to consider. All I would say is I think that given our relationship with the EEA/EU and our importance to them in terms of our status within their export markets / massive trade deficit and a weak GBP etc., that 'no deal' wouldn't necessarily be the worst thing, I would prefer it over this Chequers Plan rubbish. What will happen after we do actually leave, assuming we do, and that we leave the CU and SM (hard brexit style) is very a difficult question to answer and I don't have a crystal ball anymore than anyone else. I would say that -

 

Control of our own borders back

Full sovereignty: - ability to control 100% our own affairs from Westminster; legislate and amend policy without ratification from Brussels/Strasbourg etc.

Ability to make our own trade deals and look to the wider world for new opportunity and business partners

Reduced prices on goods and services like food and fuel (bills) etc.

 

are all reasonable to expect as actual outcomes, provided we have at least some proper leadership from within. As I said, I am certain that the things listed above only have a chance of happening once we disconnect from the EU/EEA, whilst we remain within it, they're mere pipe-dreams.

Thank you for the well balanced response.  We don't know where we are going to end up after Brexit and if there will be any positives when we do.  I understand your arguments for leaving and we must surely end up with something positive out of it.  However I fear the negatives will far outweigh any positives than can be got out of the negotiations.  However that is a conversation for after we leave and the dust has settled.  Until then we are all p*ssing in the wind.

 

Every day something new is announced but until it is written in blood... I mean ink, then it doesn't count.

[nausea]

This still going on is it. Like most sensible people I've factored a worst case scenario into my plans. Hope it doesn't end like this - 

 

 

The question is who's gonna end up on their arse, the UK or Europe. Do it? Ha!

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Think about the economics

 

pay farmers well for their produce

 

pay labour well for their production

 

Abracadabra you have a population who can afford to by relatively expensive but high quality products

 

Quality is key; did you ever read Robin Persig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance?

 

Look at Apple

 

Go after quality, not price and protect your workers.

 

Danish Bacon is excellent; who cares that you could buy cheaper bacon from Nigeria? 

"pay farmers well for their produce

pay labour well for their production

Abracadabra you have a population who can afford to by relatively expensive but high quality products"

 

Well, the French farm workers can afford the products, yes.

And how does this theory sit alongside supporting the mass influx of cheap labour from Eastern Europe, rather than paying British workers a fair wage?

 

I imagine post-Brexit more Brits will want to buy British anyway, giving a boost to British agriculture. Companies like Vauxhall are already catching onto this, pushing out ad campaigns with the slogan "British brand since 1862".

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

On leaving the EEA the UK will have to establish recognition in its own right, probably a formality, but for Europe it would mean a reciprocal deal with the EU.

Just another in the mountain of deals that will need to be struck.

I do get that, there are mountains of deals to be done and agreements to be made.  But just because something is complicated doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

Boring you with some personal observations;

 

Coming from Norway; we have had a weird relationship to EEC/EU from the very start.

Norwegian governments have tried 4 times to become a member, all tries by the Labour party.

 

We wanted in on the very start, the others laughed and showed us the door, at the time Norway was a piss poor country

with very shaky industry, but we had salmon and electrical power in abundance.

We then took the initiative and became one of the founding fathers of EFTA. (also VERY controversial in Norway)

 

Then again in the late 60s, with the UK and a couple of others. The French general didna want UK in EEC,

he didn't have the guts to say yes to Norway and no to the UK - so he said no to expansion at that stage.

 

Then, the early 70s; referendum, marginal majority for no, very marginal. No political problems, assembly followed course and

discontinued contact with EEC.

The discussions in MSM and pubs and on the streets, pretty much what you experience in the UK now.

The toffs and the industry predicted that now the land of the Vikings was headed for the dungeons.

But, then we became sheiks and oilers.

 

And, then again, the early 90s; new referendum, conclusion NO.

A personal friend of mine was chair of the NO-campaign. He very strongly believed that the Maastricht treaty would hurt

the Nordic style of governing the society. 

(Very bright thinker and speaker - crystal clear, professor in computer science - the father of object-oriented programming.) 

 

 

Maybe 4-5 years after the ref in the 70s the largest newspaper in Norway did a big job of interviewing (in depth) the toffs

and the industry and finance leaders.

In general, they couldn't care less whether we were a member or not, didna really want to discuss it.

 

 

 

I just lurve salmon...and the Northern Lights.  And your mate sounds alright too.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

As of today, what I wrote is not an assumption, but how things are. 

 

Not sure how much money you have, but for most people, studying to become a doctor is quite a financial investment. So I can completely understand that someone who’s about to start becoming a surgeon puts that investment to where it creates the best outcome under the highest probability. What’s the point of investing in an U.K. degree hoping that you might be able to practice in the EU in some years, where could just study in the EU and be sure that you can practice there right from the start (and maybe in the U.K. in a couple of years later)?

 

That of course assumes that the person involved in becoming a doctor WANTS to work in the EU. If their plan is to work in the UK it means that they don't NEED to qualify in the EU.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Think about the economics

 

pay farmers well for their produce

 

pay labour well for their production

 

Abracadabra you have a population who can afford to by relatively expensive but high quality products

 

Quality is key; did you ever read Robin Persig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance?

 

Look at Apple

 

Go after quality, not price and protect your workers.

 

Danish Bacon is excellent; who cares that you could buy cheaper bacon from Nigeria?

 

Alternatively if you were concerned about the price of bacon given as your example you could make your own. It is cheaper, tastier and YOU control what goes into it.

 

Much like Brexit in fact.

[tomacht8]

38 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Alternatively if you were concerned about the price of bacon given as your example you could make your own. It is cheaper, tastier and YOU control what goes into it.

 

Much like Brexit in fact.

 

i think the uk will take over reasonably most of the eu laws in terms of food safety and animal husbandry.

 

the UK does not have its own specific laws in this regard.

 

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/chapter/food_safety.html?root_default=SUM_1_CODED%3D30&locale=en

Edited September 18, 2018 by tomacht8

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Rightwing thinktanks unveil radical plan for US-UK Brexit trade deal

A radical blueprint for a free trade deal between the UK and the US that would see the NHS opened to foreign competition, a bonfire of consumer and environmental regulations and freedom of movement between the two countries for workers, is to be launched by prominent Brexiters.

The blueprint will be seen as significant because of the close links between the organisations behind it and the UK secretary for international trade, Liam Fox, and the US president, Donald Trump…

The text of the new trade deal has been prepared by the Initiative for Free Trade (IFT) – a thinktank founded by the longtime Eurosceptic MEP Daniel Hannan, one of the leaders of Vote Leave – and the Cato Institute, a rightwing libertarian thinktank in the US founded and funded by the fossil fuel magnates and major political donors the Koch family.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/18/rightwing-thinktanks-unveil-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs

I bloody knew it. The <deleted>

 

Thanks, Brexiters. You've opened the door to these slavering hyenas.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

"pay farmers well for their produce

pay labour well for their production

Abracadabra you have a population who can afford to by relatively expensive but high quality products"

 

Well, the French farm workers can afford the products, yes.

And how does this theory sit alongside supporting the mass influx of cheap labour from Eastern Europe, rather than paying British workers a fair wage?

 

I imagine post-Brexit more Brits will want to buy British anyway, giving a boost to British agriculture. Companies like Vauxhall are already catching onto this, pushing out ad campaigns with the slogan "British brand since 1862".

 

 

See Henry Ford

 

Also see today's report on immigration

 

Fact is the UK has more than it's fair share of idle, good for nothing, uneducated, lazy bastards. They can't compete with our European brothers; I'll tell you this, they definitely won't be able to compete with people from the hell holes off the world.

 

See what you get from Brexit! ?

[Grouse]

18 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

 

i think the uk will take over reasonably most of the eu laws in terms of food safety and animal husbandry.

 

the UK does not have its own rules in this regard.

 

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/chapter/food_safety.html?root_default=SUM_1_CODED%3D30&amp;locale=en

Standards will be on the bonfire to enable cheap imports of low quality food as part of desperate trade deals. We will not be able to export our food to the EU because it will no longer be acceptable for many reasons. Some farmers voted for Brexit ?