Britons would narrowly back remaining in the EU: poll of polls

[Guest]

 

 

German business group: 'Prepare for very hard Brexit'

 

 

 

[lamyai3]

20 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Your second quote was a real Monnet quote, your first one was not, and that is the danger with using BrainyQuote, it is not fact checked.

 

I'm not sure using an Urban Dictionary quote to critique BrainyQuote is a wise choice. 

[Stupooey]

18 hours ago, vogie said:

Holly, we still want to be your friend, we just don't want you telling us what wallpaper we can have on our walls and what flowers we can grow in our garden.

Maybe the next Ryder cup we can go back to the Great Britain and Ireland format though, I'm sure the Americans won't object.

 

Talking of the Ryder Cup, I notice that 5 of the 6 Brits lost their singles matches, whilst all the non-Brits in the European team won theirs.

 

Rather portentous, don't you think? 

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, lamyai3 said:

 

I'm not sure using an Urban Dictionary quote to critique BrainyQuote is a wise choice. 

 

It's just a joke review, but the site is full of errors, that is a fact.

[The manic]

On 9/28/2018 at 1:20 AM, nausea said:

Too late now, you've made your bed, lie in it. I just wish they'd get on with it. How are you supposed to make personal plans when nobody knows where we're gonna be in a year's time. Anyway, comes over to me as a juxtaposition of egos, I think the true interests of the common man are coming in a poor second.

'The common man'.  You are so out of contact with reality.  At least You could try the gender neutral 'the people '.

[The manic]

22 hours ago, Stupooey said:

 

Your first quote, to which bristolboy was clearly referring, is the fake, although that has not stopped posters endlessly repeating it. You quickly snuck in a second quote when you realised you had been made to look a right p***.

 

This time it was a genuine Monnet, but you cut the quote off mid-sentence, dramatically altering its meaning. As I pointed out, it was made in 1943, at the height of WWII with its result still in doubt, when people were coming up with suggestions to ensure it never happened again. His idea of some sort of a European economic union was not such a bad one.

 

Remember that the overriding philosophy behind the EU in its various guises has been to keep the peace. Perhaps this does not rest comfortably with the English, who seem to be happier when they are at war - Thatcher's popularity was never greater than when she was asking the nation to "rejoice" at the re-capture of South Georgia in the Falklands War.

 

Liberated people from the threat of a unelected fascist dictator, leading to his defeat   paving the way for democracy.  How many other western leaders have stood up to fascism? 

[rixalex]

22 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Nothing you say changes the fact that denying others the right to call for another vote is authoritarianism and anti democratic. 

 

Those who voted leave can do so again. 

 

Why so scared?

 

You must believe you’ll win any new vote. 

Nothing you say changes the fact that denying others the right to call for another vote is authoritarianism and anti democratic. 

 

How am i denying their right to call for another vote? They can call for anything they like as far as i'm concerned. If though they get their way in having the 2016 vote ignored in favour of a new one, then it is THEY (and you in your role as side-line cheerleader) who are anti-democratic.

 

Why so scared?

 

You must believe you’ll win any new vote. 

 

Why must I?

[blazes]

39 minutes ago, The manic said:

'The common man'.  You are so out of contact with reality.  At least You could try the gender neutral 'the people '.

 

He's not out of touch....the common man has disappeared under the weight of the fascist feminism of the last thirty years, which has (in many professions, especially the academic) led to thousands of "people" being appointed, not on merit, but purely on gender and/or racist criteria. 

These same "people" are now leading the hideous bleating about equity and (along with the many males who have been neutered) have turned the ancient presumption of innocence into "guilty until proved innocent."

In the meantime, kiss good bye to your career....

 

PS The presumption of innocence (at least in the US of A) has long been flouted....see Salem, see McCarthyism, and many other rushes to judgement in American history.

[vogie]

1 hour ago, Stupooey said:

 

Talking of the Ryder Cup, I notice that 5 of the 6 Brits lost their singles matches, whilst all the non-Brits in the European team won theirs.

 

Rather portentous, don't you think? 

Coming from a wannabe Jeremy Vine I would have thought you would have realised it was a joke, I think sometimes remainers don't have much sense of humour.

[Stupooey]

20 minutes ago, vogie said:

Coming from a wannabe Jeremy Vine I would have thought you would have realised it was a joke, I think sometimes remainers don't have much sense of humour.

 

Sorry, I wasn't reacting to your comment, just the reference to the Ryder Cup. It seemed to me that the Brits in the team had jumped the gun in leaving Europe.

Regarding the lack of sense of humour, I suggest you go back over the thread, particularly the first 80 pages or so, to see whom this really relates to. For example, taking Juncker's tongue-in-cheek pronouncements so seriously.

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

 

Sorry, I wasn't reacting to your comment, just the reference to the Ryder Cup. It seemed to me that the Brits in the team had jumped the gun in leaving Europe.

Regarding the lack of sense of humour, I suggest you go back over the thread, particularly the first 80 pages or so, to see whom this really relates to. For example, taking Juncker's tongue-in-cheek pronouncements so seriously.

To me Juncker is more gin in cheek than tongue in cheek. Anyway good to see you are defending such a fine statesman and probably one of the reasons the UK is leaving the EU.

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Nothing you say changes the fact that denying others the right to call for another vote is authoritarianism and anti democratic. 

 

How am i denying their right to call for another vote? They can call for anything they like as far as i'm concerned. If though they get their way in having the 2016 vote ignored in favour of a new one, then it is THEY (and you in your role as side-line cheerleader) who are anti-democratic.

 

Why so scared?

 

You must believe you’ll win any new vote. 

 

Why must I?

No, if a new vote overturns a previous one, that is just the democratic process. 

 

So you don’t think you’ll win? Certainly explains your fear of a new vote. 

[rixalex]

2 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

No, if a new vote overturns a previous one, that is just the democratic process. 

 

So you don’t think you’ll win? Certainly explains your fear of a new vote. 

No, if a new vote overturns a previous one, that is just the democratic process. 

 

Wrong. If you promise people before a vote that you will implement whatever they decide, that is what you must do. Once you have respected one vote, by all means, have another vote.

 

So you don’t think you’ll win? Certainly explains your fear of a new vote.

 

First you presume that i think leave would win a second vote. Now you presume i think remain would win. Why don't you take a break from the presumptions? I didn't know that leave would win the 2016 referendum before it happened. Did you?

[Bluespunk]

8 minutes ago, rixalex said:

No, if a new vote overturns a previous one, that is just the democratic process. 

 

Wrong. If you promise people before a vote that you will implement whatever they decide, that is what you must do. Once you have respected one vote, by all means, have another vote.

 

So you don’t think you’ll win? Certainly explains your fear of a new vote.

 

First you presume that i think leave would win a second vote. Now you presume i think remain would win. Why don't you take a break from the presumptions? I didn't know that leave would win the 2016 referendum before it happened. Did you?

A vote by the people can overturn a previous one. That’s just the democratic process. 

 

I never presumed you believed leave would win a vote, your opposition to another vote suggests you don’t believe you’ll win. 

[melvinmelvin]

22 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Labour are keeping their options open in case of a GE.

 

 

a week or so ago it was reported that TM is preparing for a GE in November

 

is that still on?

 

[Morch]

41 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

No, if a new vote overturns a previous one, that is just the democratic process. 

 

So you don’t think you’ll win? Certainly explains your fear of a new vote. 

 

Unless I'm missing something that's a bit of a recursive argument. At which point does the voting and counter-voting end? And to be clear, while I can understand some of the sentiment behind the "leave" vote, I still think it's a mostly daft and uninformed move.

[Bluespunk]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Unless I'm missing something that's a bit of a recursive argument. At which point does the voting and counter-voting end? And to be clear, while I can understand some of the sentiment behind the "leave" vote, I still think it's a mostly daft and uninformed move.

If people want a vote to overturn the previous referendum or want a remain option any vote on a final deal, then there is no reason to deny this. 

[rixalex]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

A vote by the people can overturn a previous one. That’s just the democratic process. 

 

I never presumed you believed leave would win a vote, your opposition to another vote suggests you don’t believe you’ll win. 

A vote by the people can overturn a previous one. That’s just the democratic process.

 

If there is no imperative or democratic obligation to implement to outcome of a vote, in spite even an explicit promise to do just that, well then there is absolutely no point whatsoever in people voting in the first place. Vote outcomes can just be ignored, and new votes can be called for, in perpetuity.

 

I never presumed you believed leave would win a vote, your opposition to another vote suggests you don’t believe you’ll win. 

 

My opposition to another vote isn't because, "I don't believe i'll win", i have no idea which way the vote would go, my opposition to another vote is because of the reasons stated above, added to the fact that another vote gives the EU zero incentive to give us a good deal - in fact they would be incentivized to give us the worst deal possible. Something that of course remainers don't care about.

[Morch]

21 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

If people want a vote to overturn the previous referendum or want a remain option any vote on a final deal, then there is no reason to deny this. 

 

I think most democratic systems do limit such motions - time frame, number of petitioners and preconditions to original vote being some obvious examples. A system affording unconditional endless tosses of dice until the "right" result is achieved isn't viable, nor exactly fair.

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

I think most democratic systems do limit such motions - time frame, number of petitioners and preconditions to original vote being some obvious examples. A system affording unconditional endless tosses of dice until the "right" result is achieved isn't viable, nor exactly fair.

No such limits or restrictions were set on the brexit vote. 

 

There is is no reason to deny another vote or a remain option on a vote on any final deal. 

 

There is certainly no reason to deny the rights of others to call for a vote as some would do. 

[Morch]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

No such limits or restrictions were set on the brexit vote. 

 

There is is no reason to deny another vote or a remain option on a vote on any final deal. 

 

There is certainly no reason to deny the rights of others to call for a vote as some would do. 

 

Calling for a new vote is certainly within rights, no argument. Having a new vote, perhaps a more contested issue. Once again, lets say voting results in a similar outcome to either direction - what then? Another vote?

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Calling for a new vote is certainly within rights, no argument. Having a new vote, perhaps a more contested issue. Once again, lets say voting results in a similar outcome to either direction - what then? Another vote?

If the U.K. didn’t want to face this situation, then they shouldn’t have gone down the referendum route. 

 

They chose to do so and now must face the consequences. 

 

There is no reason to deny another vote. 

[Morch]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

If the U.K. didn’t want to face this situation, then they shouldn’t have gone down the referendum route. 

 

They chose to do so and now must face the consequences. 

 

There is no reason to deny another vote. 

 

It's not that I disagree, but that doesn't have a whole lot to do with addressing the point raised.

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

It's not that I disagree, but that doesn't have a whole lot to do with addressing the point raised.

The only point I have been making is that there is no legitimate reason to deny another vote. 

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

A vote by the people can overturn a previous one. That’s just the democratic process.

 

If there is no imperative or democratic obligation to implement to outcome of a vote, in spite even an explicit promise to do just that, well then there is absolutely no point whatsoever in people voting in the first place. Vote outcomes can just be ignored, and new votes can be called for, in perpetuity.

 

I never presumed you believed leave would win a vote, your opposition to another vote suggests you don’t believe you’ll win. 

 

My opposition to another vote isn't because, "I don't believe i'll win", i have no idea which way the vote would go, my opposition to another vote is because of the reasons stated above, added to the fact that another vote gives the EU zero incentive to give us a good deal - in fact they would be incentivized to give us the worst deal possible. Something that of course remainers don't care about.

But the vote is being acted on and the consequences of leaving are clearer.

 

There is no reason why people should be denied a vote on any deal the tories cobble together.

 

Remain should be an option on any such vote.

[watso63]

There's been a vote. These idiots only think democracy works if "they" win. Out means out, get on with it.

[pegman]

On September 27, 2018 at 7:20 PM, nausea said:

Too late now, you've made your bed, lie in it. I just wish they'd get on with it. How are you supposed to make personal plans when nobody knows where we're gonna be in a year's time. Anyway, comes over to me as a juxtaposition of egos, I think the true interests of the common man are coming in a poor second.

It was the tabloid reading common man that got them in this pickle. Well, them and that public school idiot Cameron.

[mommysboy]

16 minutes ago, watso63 said:

There's been a vote. These idiots only think democracy works if "they" win. Out means out, get on with it.

 

How? Just drop out?

 

Where do we send you the invoice?

 

[Kieran00001]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

a week or so ago it was reported that TM is preparing for a GE in November

 

is that still on?

 

 

Certainly not been agreed, it is currently set for May 2022.

[Bluespunk]

35 minutes ago, rixalex said:

There's nothing for me to not like. I explained the problems caused by having another vote. You replied with words to the effect of, "well anyway, i don't care". That's not giving a reason, let alone reasons, that's just blindly ignoring the other side of the debate. You are arguing in a vacuum in which only you and your points exist.

I disagree there are problems with another vote, the referendum genie is out and there are consequences to that.

 

There is no legitimate reason to deny a vote on a final deal that does not include a remain option.

 

I'm not ignoring anything, I just disagree with your stance that there cannot be another vote.

 

The brexiteers are free to present their case in any such campaign.