A naked and shameful power grab [Editorial]

[baboon]

6 minutes ago, NaamGin said:

Is that the best you have, other than wanting to kick my butt because you don't have an argument?

What are you talking about? I mean you no harm whatsoever, just pointing out that this is not the thread to be discussing political ideologies. Let's take it to World News or somewhere else more appropriate.

[Vacuum]

I clicked at the topic only because of the headline, disappointed....

[rkidlad]

4 minutes ago, NaamGin said:

 

No one is arguing that certain social services should be provided by the government; fire, police, education, in some cases health care (disastrously), protection of national sovereignty (except in the EU), etc.

 

The true socialists want government take over of business, equal pay for all regardless of skills and nationalization of industry. This is where socialism falls apart and greed is a human nature that cannot be countered by the best hopes and wishes of people wanting equality for all. It is an admirable goal, unfortunately humans are not capable of pulling it off. 

 

 

Stop watching so much Jordan Peterson and thinking that everyone who wants a fairer and more equal society is a socialist/Marxist. 

 

Some people just want a better and fairer society. It doesn't mean they're asking for everyone to be paid the same. Stop conflating the two ideas and thinking everything is either black or white. 

 

Also, it has nothing to do with this thread. 

[boonrawdcnx]

Surprise surprise .....The Nation and MOST other publications are waking up finally after 4 years of being complicit by staying quite except for the one or the other lame editorial instead of dismantling these pretenders systematically who stole the country 4 years ago.

Watching the constant dismantling of democratic values for years now starting with thugs like Suthep and the mad monk - and staying quite ?

Watching the country taken over with guns followed by intimidation and attitude adjustment, watching the dismantling of an independent ( at least a part of it was still kind of independent ) judiciary and civilians tried in military courts and they thought the thugs would change and stop grabbing more power?
More than 4 years the Thai press has watching and where too blind to see what’s coming while they had thrown bananas at them and where told to ask only questions that make this government look good and not to “offend” their thin skinned leader.
I myself have been watching this for 4 years now and have been wondering when this so called “educated middle class” of Bangkok who have been cheering Suthep and his thugs are finally waking up ?
I have news for you The Nation - the farmers in the North and Northeast who you called stupid have seen this coming a long time before you “educated” people.
They are laughing now and say let the Bangkok people reap what they sow 4 years ago!


Who are the ones who look really stupid now ?

The farmers might not care which corrupt bunch is in charge in Bangkok as long as they get a few crumbs from the cake - but guess what - they recognize that if it walks like a duck , talks like a duck - it’s just that - a duck!
The so called educated people in Bangkok seem to be blind to that fact - or it could of course simply be that they are not willing to admit they made a mistake when they rushed out onto the streets and handed their cash over to Suthep (who is at least as corrupt as Thaksin he just never won any elections to get to fill his pockets)

They did not see what’s coming after Prawit’s first failed attempt to provoke violence to overthrow Yingluck at Sanam Luang ?

They did not see what’s coming when Suthep, the mad monk and their thugs where terrorizing Bangkok trying to prevent elections.

It’s a bit late to wake up now after being complicit since day one of this charade!

You will have to live with it - probably for a long time to come - karma is a bitch!






Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[natway09]

As an old expat I do not want to see blood on the streets for a fourth time.

The whole world is in a mess as is Thailand but it's economic framework appears to be working

in many areas. Not sure ready for "democracy " as we know it

[connda]

9 hours ago, webfact said:

The junta and Cabinet under General Prayut Chan-o-cha is spending tax money with the aim of dominating Thailand’s political scene for decades to come.

Kudos to the Nation for having the courage to come right out and call a 'spade a spade' as opposed to a 'glorified gardening tool'.

[Eric Loh]

30 minutes ago, natway09 said:

As an old expat I do not want to see blood on the streets for a fourth time.

The whole world is in a mess as is Thailand but it's economic framework appears to be working

in many areas. Not sure ready for "democracy " as we know it

Perhaps the answer to stopping blood on the streets can be found in the op-ed which I extracted below a portion. 

 

“With the collaboration of veteran corrupt politicians who launched street protests and chaos from late 2013, Prayut was able to stage a military coup in May 2014 that toppled an elected civilian government.”,

 

I am pretty sure that the economic policies were chugging along nicely in terms of GDP growth during the democratically elected government until the coup drove the economy to its knees. Credit to them it recover after adopting the economic framework of the previous government which include infrastructure projects and EEC. 

[thaiguzzi]

Wow! Tell it like it is Nation dudes and dudesses.

I would be interested to know if these sort of editorials are printed in the Thai language dailies?

If so, jolly good, if not, why not?

[Retiredandhappyhere]

5 hours ago, robblok said:

We seen how it went when Thaksin got in power and removed all checks and balances. So its safe to say democracy Thai style has its problems. 

 

I believe it does not matter much anymore if there is a democracy here or a junta corruption wise. The whole system is based on nepotism the politicians use it the junta uses it and nobody will change it. They will do whatever they need to get part of the corruption money. As long as this does not change it does not matter who is in power they will all be dirty. With democracies only advantage being that they can send a corrupt party home after an election.. but if there are no non corrupt choices democracy won't clean up anything either.

 

The culture needs to change before you will see any change. Its this culture of corruption that is holding Thailand back. They can make all the laws they want but when the police and judiciary are not corruption free it will never work. You see it all the there are enough laws but they are not enforced by the police as they get money not to do so. Unless there is some serious change in thinking in this country corruption will stay and as long as corruption stays the amount of money that can be made if in power is huge.. so they will fight over it always.

 

Solve corruption and you solve the Thai political problem.. because without the money there the mercenaries and criminals won't be interested in it anymore.

Your best post yet, Robblok!   Congratulations.

[chainarong]

The ones that now realize that the Prayut junta will not bring about reconciliation or peace ( Coups never do) surely must choose other pollical parties and if this article is indeed correct and the majority of Thai's dislike Prayut's A team how can they win,  err well unless its a gerrymander to win at all costs , that then spells trouble on the horizon.  

[Eric Loh]

I am thrilled to see the op-ed use the word “dictatorship”. Say it as it is. 

[connda]

10 hours ago, webfact said:

With the junta-designed legal instruments and military back-up, the party is free from tight restrictions binding its rivals. While other parties are banned from campaigning or meeting prospective voters, Palang Pracharath and its powerful new leadership are free to meet the people on behalf of the ruling government.

 

But worse than this is that taxpayers’ money will fund this de facto campaigning. The same money funds Pracharath projects. Voters are bound to be confused at where this state largesse is coming from – a happy state of affairs for the new party.

 

Unfortunate but true, but when a country's leadership is usurped via coup, then those who rule can then define what 'corruption' is, and what 'corruption' is not. 

Edited October 3, 2018 by connda

[jayboy]

16 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

Your best post yet, Robblok!   Congratulations.

 

I disagree.In fact his premise is flawed and his analysis - such as it is - naive.

 

Corruption is a major issue in Thailand (as it is throughout the region with Thailand not being the worst offender)

 

But the country's political problems are not primarily about corruption.More sophisticated commentators have argued using a piggy metaphor that the problems - from Thaksin on - were the result of some participants at the trough becoming too greedy and elbowing out (or reducing the share of) longer established pigs.This is true up to a point but is far from being the complete explanation.

 

 

[thaiguzzi]

6 hours ago, robblok said:

We seen how it went when Thaksin got in power and removed all checks and balances. So its safe to say democracy Thai style has its problems. 

 

I believe it does not matter much anymore if there is a democracy here or a junta corruption wise. The whole system is based on nepotism the politicians use it the junta uses it and nobody will change it. They will do whatever they need to get part of the corruption money. As long as this does not change it does not matter who is in power they will all be dirty. With democracies only advantage being that they can send a corrupt party home after an election.. but if there are no non corrupt choices democracy won't clean up anything either.

 

The culture needs to change before you will see any change. Its this culture of corruption that is holding Thailand back. They can make all the laws they want but when the police and judiciary are not corruption free it will never work. You see it all the there are enough laws but they are not enforced by the police as they get money not to do so. Unless there is some serious change in thinking in this country corruption will stay and as long as corruption stays the amount of money that can be made if in power is huge.. so they will fight over it always.

 

Solve corruption and you solve the Thai political problem.. because without the money there the mercenaries and criminals won't be interested in it anymore.

This could all be sorted And stopped. And started afresh.

But it's not.

And we know the reason why but we cannot discuss it on a Thai-centric forum.

And it will never really change until that finally happens, ie Thailand comes out of the 19th century...

[Justgrazing]

7 hours ago, colinneil said:

As long as the Thai military keep sticking their oar in, there will never be democracy here.

Look at how many coups there has been since 1932, every time a government does something senior military dont like, they role out the tanks.

Now nearly all Thai people just sit back and accept it, the few people who speak up are taken away for attitude adjustment.

100% spot on Col' ..

[anon2736434]

20 minutes ago, thaiguzzi said:

This could all be sorted And stopped. And started afresh.

But it's not.

And we know the reason why but we cannot discuss it on a Thai-centric forum.

And it will never really change until that finally happens, ie Thailand comes out of the 19th century...

Yes it is all just a big pyramid scheme, no one person or group to blame for it all and it aint gonna change boys and girls, too much at stake here.

[Oziex1]

6 hours ago, NaamGin said:

 

Great argument, I have to remember that one.

 

Here is a little test smart guy, name ONE (1) socialist society in the history of mankind that has been a success. 

I'll give you the answer so you don't hurt your head, there are ZERO, NUCNA, NONE, NADA. 

 

BTW, <deleted> you too!!!

 

You seem fixated with socialism it doesn't work I think you agree.

 

Do you not feel some disappointment or even shame that the only system that works for us is based on self interest and greed.

[anon2736434]

Venezuela seems to be doing quite well with that socialism thing hahahahaha.

[DrTuner]

10 hours ago, Ahab said:

Maybe Thailand is like the Arab countries and is simply not ready or capable of democracy.

Democracy requires a certain level of knowledge of how things work from the voters. Thais don't care as long as they stand to benefit something personally.

 

"Every country has the government it deserves"

[DrTuner]

2 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

I am thrilled to see the op-ed use the word “dictatorship”. Say it as it is. 

Given that Thaivisa is owned by the Nation (AFAIK), can we now start using it or is it still on the PC blacklist?

[boonrawdcnx]

Surprise surprise .....The Nation and MOST other publications are waking up finally after 4 years of being complicit by staying quite except for the one or the other lame editorial instead of dismantling these pretenders systematically who stole the country 4 years ago.

Watching the constant dismantling of democratic values for years now starting with thugs like Suthep and the mad monk - and staying quite ?

Watching the country taken over with guns followed by intimidation and attitude adjustment, watching the dismantling of an independent ( at least a part of it was still kind of independent ) judiciary and civilians tried in military courts and they thought the thugs would change and stop grabbing more power?
More than 4 years the Thai press has watching and where too blind to see what’s coming while they had thrown bananas at them and where told to ask only questions that make this government look good and not to “offend” their thin skinned leader.
I myself have been watching this for 4 years now and have been wondering when this so called “educated middle class” of Bangkok who have been cheering Suthep and watched their civil liberties and free speech taken away are finally waking up ?
I have news for you The Nation - the farmers in the North and Northeast who you called stupid have seen this coming a long time before you “educated” people.

They are laughing now and say let the Bangkok people reap what they sow 4 years ago!


Who are the ones who look really stupid now ?

The farmers might not care which corrupt bunch is in charge in Bangkok - because they all are - as long as they get a few crumbs from the cake - but guess what - they recognize that if it walks like a duck , talks like a duck - it’s just that - a duck!
The so called educated people in Bangkok seem to be blind to that fact - or it could of course simply be that they are not willing to admit they made a mistake when they rushed out onto the streets and handed their cash over to Suthep (who is at least as corrupt as Thaksin he just never won any elections to get to fill his pockets)

They did not see what’s coming after Prawit’s first failed attempt to provoke violence to overthrow Yingluck at Sanam Luang ?

They did not see what’s coming when Suthep, the mad monk and their thugs where terrorizing Bangkok trying to prevent elections?

It’s a bit late to wake up now after being complicit since day one of this charade!

You will have to live with it - probably for a long time to come !






Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[anon2736434]

You cant really blame anyone including the nation for staying quiet, lets face it would YOU risk everything ? family, assets, freedom etc. standing up against such a total takeover such as has happened knowing after you are sitting in jail (or worse) and lost everything nobody would be standing with you while you rotted away. Sorry but a country that doesnt believe in making the sacrifice for freedom doesnt deserve it. Freedom isnt free and the actions needed to attain it are usually pretty ugly but sometimes have to be done.

[Eligius]

19 minutes ago, Notagain said:

You cant really blame anyone including the nation for staying quiet, lets face it would YOU risk everything ? family, assets, freedom etc. standing up against such a total takeover such as has happened knowing after you are sitting in jail (or worse) and lost everything nobody would be standing with you while you rotted away. Sorry but a country that doesnt believe in making the sacrifice for freedom doesnt deserve it. Freedom isnt free and the actions needed to attain it are usually pretty ugly but sometimes have to be done.

Great post, Notagain.

Sadly, I am reluctantly coming round to your point of view - that a people that is not prepared to make the great requisite sacrifice for freedom and civil dignity deserves neither.

[zzaa09]

4 hours ago, thaiguzzi said:

This could all be sorted And stopped. And started afresh.

But it's not.

And we know the reason why but we cannot discuss it on a Thai-centric forum.

And it will never really change until that finally happens, ie Thailand comes out of the 19th century...

 

 

Succinctly said.

And yet, most circles will go on pretending to understand the less than complex world of Thai politics - from a surface interpretation. Refusing to comprehend the instigation origins and the very basic whys and wherefores.

[Ahab]

12 hours ago, jesimps said:

What a patronising and completely wrong assumption. Due to the military, the Thais have never been given the chance to find out whether or not they're capable of democracy.

Of course this response is absolute rubbish. Even the last coup could have been averted if the two main parties could have compromised. They could not, and the military took over. Your post provides zero facts that support your theory has any footing in reality. Thailand has had many opportunities to make democracy work, and have failed at every opportunity.  Besides the Palestinians, the government of Thailand has been the champion of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. It was a patronizing statement on purpose, but based on history (of the last 100 years) it may not be a wrong assumption which may have been proven by Thailand having more coups that any other country in the modern world.

 

Corruption is just too strong, Democracy requires a stronger rule of law (my opinion) to flourish.

[tomta]

11 hours ago, robblok said:

You and I really differ about democracy.

 

Democracy did not work.. in a working democracy YL would have been stopped long ago. There would not have been need for street protests. Independent organisations would have had her scheme investigated and that was it. This did not happen as she had too much power. 

Its not the job of the people to push people out who are corrupt.. the law should do so. Why else are there laws. 

 

Anyway I agree it went too far but it would never have come to this (or maybe it would but a watered down less supported versions of this) if YL had been dealt with before. 

 

That is the problem here those in power think they can do everything. Just remember Prayut his watches.. how blatant its lies were.. how it rattled people..same applied to the fake G2G deals. Once in power they think that nothing can stop them.. sad thing is that its true because of the slow workings here. (and yes junta has far more power as YL). 

 

I really hate it when those arrogant people in power think we are all stupid when its so obvious. Then those people are protected and almost nothing happens.. that makes people mad. 

 

 

Yes, we do differ about democracy. You think it's an on/off switch that either "works" or doesn't work and if it doesn't work it should be replaced by the nearest thing that makes the trains run on time. I think it is a process, a social contract that enables the citizens of a country to make peaceful compromises about sharing and transferring power while still retaining the hope that their point of view can be represented.

 

You think that corruption is such a terrible thing but your version of corruption is purely about financial corruption. What about the military's corruption of the political process and the social contract that underpinned it? This corruption of the political process began on the day that Yingluck was elected. Suthep and the military just would not accept that other viewpoints than their own were entitled to some power.

 

There were checks against Yingluck's  power. As I said the protests led to the abandonment of the amnesty bill because PT  recognized it could lead to electoral power. They submitted themselves to one election - sabotaged by Suthep with the connivance of the army - and they were ready to submit to another. This is the ultimate check and balance.

 

You supported the rise of the arrogant people to power so you really can't complain about it now

 

 

[tomta]

58 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Of course this response is absolute rubbish. Even the last coup could have been averted if the two main parties could have compromised. They could not, and the military took over. Your post provides zero facts that support your theory has any footing in reality.

 

 

In a democratic system, the ultimate mechanism of compromise is a fair election. One side proposed that, the other demanded "reforms before elections" to be decided by a council chosen by themselves. 

 

The army sided with Suthep's non-compromising stance and had been with him all along.

[nahkit]

16 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

"...If an election is called next year, it’s difficult to see how it could be free and fair since the key players have been corrupt since the beginning. With the stranglehold being applied by the elite in Thai society, democracy has no chance of finding a home here. What we are witnessing now is the abuse of rule of law and every democratic norm in the service of elite self-interest. The spectacle is nothing less than a national shame..."

 

Kudos for the Nation in saying what many have believed for a long time.

 

However, the mere writing of words is not enough; what kind of action are calling for? A boycott? Street protests? An appeal to other elements in the army? Other?

 

There are fine words in the editorial, but stating what the problem is and calling for some kind of solution are different things...

 

 

What do you suggest the solution is?

 

You do realise that if the Nation were to overstep the mark then reporters could be jailed and the paper closed down?

[DrTuner]

4 hours ago, Eligius said:

Sadly, I am reluctantly coming round to your point of view - that a people that is not prepared to make the great requisite sacrifice for freedom and civil dignity deserves neither.

That seems to be the gist of it. To have freedom is to break the old mold, to keep it requires eternal vigilance. It's worth it though.

 

EDIT: a few others seem to have reached the same conclusion: http://freedomkeys.com/vigil.htm

Edited October 3, 2018 by DrTuner
Link

[Ahab]

10 hours ago, tomta said:

 

 

In a democratic system, the ultimate mechanism of compromise is a fair election. One side proposed that, the other demanded "reforms before elections" to be decided by a council chosen by themselves. 

 

The army sided with Suthep's non-compromising stance and had been with him all along.

Based on the above quote, it appears that you agree with the assertion that Thailand is among the countries of the world not capable have having a democracy. If having a fair election is a prerequisite to democracy.