BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Mark1066 said:

Neither am I but it's something I've thought about in the past, paranoid or not. If they truly want to get rid of expats with an income obtained illegally in the country, this would seem to be one of the easiest ways to achieve that aim. Depositing a sum of money and leaving it in a bank account does nothing to prove that we are funding our living expenses from overseas.

What's odd about pursuit of such paranoid thoughts in the context of THIS topic is that in THIS topic income based British expats are being forcibly PUSHED into the 800K bank method. 

[Mark1066]

8 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

getting our country back? I've heard that before somewhere, how does it feel to be a refugee ?

Coming to terms with the fact that one is in an ethnic minority can be very difficult for white people from developed nations as it's not something they have any previous experience of.

[Mark1066]

Just now, Jingthing said:

What's odd about pursuit of such paranoid thoughts in the context of THIS topic is that in THIS topic income based British expats are being forcibly PUSHED into the 800K bank method. 

If that is indeed the case then yes I agree. But nobody yet knows whether immigration will accept alternative proof of income such as bank statements so I'm not sure this is the case.

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, Mark1066 said:

If that is indeed the case then yes I agree. But nobody yet knows whether immigration will accept alternative proof of income such as bank statements so I'm not sure this is the case.

I can tell you for certain that Thai immigration has not announced any policy saying embassy letters are no longer required for income based applications. Which is a big reason I find the British embassy announcement bizarre. Suggesting people use the income method another way but totally refusing to issue letters. In effect they are indeed pushing people into the bank account method or to leave the country. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Jingthing

[poohy]

2 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

The Thai authorities don`t want foreigners that stay in Thailand long term keeping the bulk of their money in foreign accounts then bringing over the bare minimum for the shortest time possible just to obtain yearly visas and extensions.

And why not l its our money not there s

 remember on average as retirees we spend far more than you "average" Thai chomping daily on noodles and sticky rice 

[Jingthing]

If it turns out this is only a British thing (which is what other nationalities of course are hoping for) is there nothing British expats can do to elevate this issue back in the British press and government? If it's only a British thing, then the British government is creating hardships for it's own citizens. If other embassies have a way to deal with Thai immigration requirements, what's the British excuse? 

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Esso49 said:

And what is the problem with an extension based on marriage, surely the way to go if you are married? 

Even though the income-levels are lower, it's a steeper climb, with more hurdles.

 

2 hours ago, Esso49 said:

As a side issue it is possibly a more stable, higher quality of person in the eyes of the Thais then Farangs on a retirement visa/extension just acting as if they are single ? 

You would think so, but it seems some in the system dislike mixed-marriages and/or resent the lower income-requirement.  In short, a farang and his Thai wife can expect to be treated like criminals (her more than him) in some offices.

 

2 hours ago, totally thaied up said:

Thai Immigration has cleaned up the EDU Visas, Tourist Visas

EDU has gotten easier recently, since they lowered the required-hours.  It seems they overshot the target, so the net-income from the "no hassle extension" scheme must have dropped.  When you hear "crackdown" think "more / thicker brown-envelopes."

 

Tourist-Visas are about the same if one avoids the few checkpoints who don't follow the published guidelines.  One can expect to get about 2 yrs out of each passport, spending 300 days in Thailand per-year, if they travel wisely.

 

2 hours ago, totally thaied up said:

They are now just getting to the income and they know this will push a lot of people out of the country that are running on oily fumes. They don't want or need this type of person here and that is what I think (just my view) why this is happening.

That may indeed be how a clique is thinking, but it is short-sighted.  People living on far less than the minimums for retirement can eat out every day at restaurants, rent a decent place to live, and pay for entertainment.  It's hardly "oily fumes."  That's why so many retire here - because you don't have to be rich to live well here. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by JackThompson

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, cyberfarang said:

Who`s to blame? The a/holes that have been abusing the system, that`s who to blame. This will probably affect thousands and good riddance, now it`s either put up the money or bye, bye.

You mean the clique at immigration working in partnership with the agents?  I don't mean all IOs - but some offices roadblock or restrict legit-applications to force agent-use. 

 

1 hour ago, Esso49 said:

And if it gets rid of those scammers that are bucking the system, using dodgy agents to fix their extensions or just telling downright lies to facilitate extensions then my view is damn good job too and clear off to PL ASAP. Some of us who have been here years legitimately are sick to the back teeth of being tarred with the same brush as the scammers/system buckers.

 

As to those faking the money - either with or without agent-help - what is the demonstrable-harm they are doing to anyone by spending smaller amounts into the country?  How is one wealthier foreigner "tarred" by some other guy who doesn't eat, drink, or sleep in the same "high-class" locations? 

 

Everyone can see the pitfalls of mass zero/low-baht tourism - infrastructure wear, bad-traffic, bus-smog, crowds, long-queues, etc - but these are not caused by longer-staying farangs.  Why would the Thai govt or other foreigners be motivated to make it more difficult for them to stay?  In other words, What's The Point of this?

[Peterw42]

This is nothing to do with immigration or a grand plan to get rid of expats.

 

Currently the UK Consulate writes letters "from" the consulate and "signed by" the Consulate, guaranteeing your income. Thats a lot of liability and responsibility, something they no longer want to do. (OP says, we are unable to verify your income)

 

Other countries like Australia, Canada, US etc do not write letters from the consulate or sign them, they do not guarantee your income or have any responsibility, they only witness your signature on a letter you write and sign.

 

If people cant see the difference or understand why the UK consulate is doing this, maybe better to stick with the immigration conspiracy theories.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

This is nothing to do with immigration or a grand plan to get rid of expats.

 

Currently the UK Consulate writes letters "from" the consulate and "signed by" the Consulate, guaranteeing your income. Thats a lot of liability and responsibility, something they no longer want to do. (OP says, we are unable to verify your income)

 

Other countries like Australia, Canada, US etc do not write letters from the consulate or sign them, they do not guarantee your income or have any responsibility, they only witness your signature on a letter you write and sign.

 

If people cant see the difference or understand why the UK consulate is doing this, maybe better to stick with the immigration conspiracy theories.

Yes, very possibly. Maybe probably.

However, what I don't get is why the British embassy isn't trying to change their policies on doing these letters to satisfy the Thai authorities.
I assume it's a British policy for such documents globally.

But there are so many British nationals here!

Seems to me the issue could be elevated back in the UK to at least try to adjust their methods. 

Yes I know the government back there is occupied with more pressing matters.

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Jingthing

[blackhorse]

If it turns out this is only a British thing (which is what other nationalities of course are hoping for) is there nothing British expats can do to elevate this issue back in the British press and government? If it's only a British thing, then the British government is creating hardships for it's own citizens. If other embassies have a way to deal with Thai immigration requirements, what's the British excuse? 

You know the ozzies tried this last year. Exactly the same even made an announcement via official embassy website BUT did a backflip within a few weeks. Obviously some type of legal ramifications involved

Wouldn't surprise me if the brit embassy do exactly the same thing

[baansgr]

2 hours ago, puchooay said:

Lotus and Makro closing because a few expats can't stay here anymore. Thanks for the rib tickler. Funny.

Its far more than a few 

[zxzoomy]

An earlier poster said that a worker at the Canadian embassy said they were stopping doing the letters soon too. The uk announcement may be the tip of the iceberg.

[Peterw42]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes, very possibly. Maybe probably.

However, what I don't get is why the British embassy isn't trying to change their policies on doing these letters to satisfy the Thai authorities.
I assume it's a British policy for such documents globally.

But there are so many British nationals here!

Seems to me the issue could be elevated back in the UK to at least try to adjust their methods. 

Yes I know the government back there is occupied with more pressing matters.

 

I would say its being done to satisfy the lawyers who have realised the liability at stake. Technically Thai immigration could sue the consulate for false information as its their signature on the letters. I am suprised they have ever done this as no other countries put their name to individuals claims, they only ever witness you making the claim.

 

[cyberfarang]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Just stepping back from the details of the British Embassy announcement for a moment, has it occurred to others here whether the timing of this latest kerfuffle is merely coincidental with Big Joke (Prawit's man) taking over as head of Immigration, or perhaps NOT!  And Prawit being in the news just in the past day saying how he'd ordered Immigration to quickly deport anyone found on visa overstay. And Joke's track record of visa overstay raids.

 

If one were reading the tea leaves lately, it wouldn't be too hard to conclude that there's a definite anti-foreigner campaign/shift underway. Add into that the police's recent verbal and threatened legal assault on the British teenager's KT rape allegations.  And various other foreigner in the news prosecutions, including again just today --"Tourist Police and Immigration step up checks on foreigners living in Bangkok."

 

I don't know that such a change of government sentiment is occurring/has occurred. But it might not be too hard to conclude that it is/has.  It's one thing when the government/Immigration proclaims "Good guys in, bad guys out," which in the real world is a joke with loads of actual foreign criminals running around Thailand untouched. But depending on whether Thai Immigration starts demanding new and onerous forms of income documentation, it may well result in a lot of "good guys out" as well.

 

Over the years immigration procedures for westerners in Thailand have been a doddle. Entering and leaving the country at will with virtually no questions asked, unlimited border runs whereas those on tourist visas could remain here forever, no tags kept on foreigners, marriages of convenience, westerners using Thais to front real estate speculating, buying properties, farms and land, running businesses and working on-line believing the authorities won`t notice. 

 

Immigration procedures are tightening worldwide and this is mostly due to foreigners abusing the system.

 

Many of the Thai immigration laws have been in existence for donkey`s years, all they`re doing now is starting to enforce them. They are also trying to close all loopholes which allows foreigners to buck the immigration requirements and system. I cannot in anyway see this as being an anti-foreigner campaign. 

 

It`s very simple, if like me expats have made provisions to legally financially support themselves in Thailand for as long as they wish to stay here, in my case forever, have substantial savings in-case of medical requirements and enough money put aside if in the eventuality the visa extension money in a Thai bank stakes increase and making allowances for low bank exchange rates, then they have no problems.

 

Thailand is not a grazing ground for old Farangs and others of little wealth, no one owes anyone else a living. Thailand want`s foreigners that are going to bring something of benefit into the country as does most other countries of the World. If a person rents an apartment the landlord expects to make a profit from that tenant, no pay, then no accommodation, the same applies to westerners residing in Thailand, no money, no honey and that`s the sad truth.

Edited October 8, 2018 by cyberfarang

[Phuket Man]

11 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes, very possibly. Maybe probably.

However, what I don't get is why the British embassy isn't trying to change their policies on doing these letters to satisfy the Thai authorities.
I assume it's a British policy for such documents globally.

But there are so many British nationals here!

Seems to me the issue could be elevated back in the UK to at least try to adjust their methods. 

Yes I know the government back there is occupied with more pressing matters.

 

As a Yank JT this has nothing to do with you.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Peterw42 said:

I would say its being done to satisfy the lawyers who have realised the liability at stake. Technically Thai immigration could sue the consulate for false information as its their signature on the letters. I am suprised they have ever done this as no other countries put their name to individuals claims, they only ever witness you making the claim.

 

You present a very credible theory. But we don't know for sure as they're not saying. 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Phuket Man said:

As a Yank JT this has nothing to do with you.

No. You are wrong. We are all in this together and at this point we don't know if the British change reflects something more global in Thai immigration policies. If you don't wish to read my posts, put me on ignore, but I don't respect your attempt to kick me off a topic that interests me (and so many other expats of all nationalities) very much. If it turns out this really is a specifically British peculiarity, then you'd be right, and it would be much more a British only concern.

Cheers. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Jingthing

[youngster30uk]

How long is the proof of income letter acceptable to immigration after it is issued?

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, youngster30uk said:

How long is the proof of income letter acceptable to immigration after it is issued?

Six months. Although there have been a few reports of at least one provincial office wanting them more fresh. But generally six months. 

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, zxzoomy said:

An earlier poster said that a worker at the Canadian embassy said they were stopping doing the letters soon too. The uk announcement may be the tip of the iceberg.

That is very concerning. Which means retired expats of ALL nationalities should be interested in this topic at least for now until we get the gist of how all of this is going to shake out. 

[Peterw42]

4 minutes ago, youngster30uk said:

How long is the proof of income letter acceptable to immigration after it is issued?

Depends on the office, some up to 6 months

[Lovethailandelite]

 

The INN article poses the question: 60,000 foreigners in Thailand – are they legal?

Surachate promises justice for those following the rules – but says that he will arrest anyone who who didn’t have the correct paperwork, no matter where they lived in Thailand.

He also said that changes are being proposed regarding visa extensions giving the example that possessions of Thai wives, married to foreigners, could be used as collateral. He did not elaborate on any other changes and who the changes might affect.

https://thethaiger.com/news/national/foreigners-nationwide-being-checked-as-visa-changes-being-considered

[blorg]

17 minutes ago, zxzoomy said:

An earlier poster said that a worker at the Canadian embassy said they were stopping doing the letters soon too. The uk announcement may be the tip of the iceberg.

Possibly not just the UK but the colonies as well

[Mark1066]

35 minutes ago, poohy said:

And why not l its our money not there s

 remember on average as retirees we spend far more than you "average" Thai chomping daily on noodles and sticky rice 

It's attitudes like this that do the expat population as a whole no favours at all. I've met numerous Thais earning multiples of what many 'wealthy' foreign retirees appear to be living on. You may make yourself feel better by imagining you are some kind of money god to the Thais but you're living in a fantasy world if you really believe that to be the case.

[cyberfarang]

59 minutes ago, Mark1066 said:

Neither am I but it's something I've thought about in the past, paranoid or not. If they truly want to get rid of expats with an income obtained illegally in the country, this would seem to be one of the easiest ways to achieve that aim. Depositing a sum of money and leaving it in a bank account does nothing to prove that we are funding our living expenses from overseas.

And this is another hurdle to jump over that I believe immigration will implement next. As I said; be prepared.

[JackThompson]

40 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

One of the roots of all evil. 

Not necessarily.  Unless directed into an expansionist foreign-policy, it is a smart form of self-defense.  Those whose homelands are being plundered by transnational's globalization agenda are being programmed to hate their own culture - to believe there is something wrong with preserving their nation / culture / traditions for their own children.  To their credit, Thailand has not been successfully-infected with this cultural-suicide pathology.

In Western countries, mass-immigration drives down per-capita GDP and income levels.  Only the top fraction of 1% benefit from the cheap-labor and an increase in net GDP - much of that from debt and/or tax-spending into handout programs and schools - in other words, corporate welfare.

 

In the case of Farangs in Thailand, it is in the economic-interests of Thai people of all classes that foreign-sourced incomes from foreigners continue.  There are no handouts for foreigners to plunder and no easy-citizenship, so there is no potential downside. 

Unfortunately, many in the Thai top 1% may only see value in rich foreigners, as investors.  So there is a parallel, in terms of a clique potentially creating policy-changes that harm to the middle and lower classes.  But even for the wealthiest Thais - while they may not miss any meals, regardless - I fail to see how they would gain by removing "smaller fish" foreign-capital spenders from the economy.  More poverty in lower-classes, due to lost foreign-capital spending, will inevitably lead to more social-strife - so seems like a "lose-lose" change to me.

[OJAS]

3 hours ago, theoldgit said:

My Kasikorn statement says "Dummy Branch" whilst TransferWise says "Local bank transfer" & "Bangkok Bank".

 

3 hours ago, Esso49 said:

Maybe not as income can be from any source, anywhere.  Deposits/transfers into your bank account should be considered income but of course would require definitive clarification

Might not TransferWise’s downloadable transfer confirmation pdf’s do the trick? In my case these always state the number of my Bangkok Bank account into which the THB transfers are being paid.

 

Despite all the optimistic comments on here, I personally remain highly sceptical as to whether Immigration would, in the event, be likely to accept monthly income evidence in whatever form it might take in the absence of an Embassy verification letter. I am therefore inclined to take whatever suggestion might arguably have been made to this effect by the Embassy with a large pinch of salt.

 

Hitherto I have obtained retirement extensions on the basis of the 65,000 THB monthly income requirement. However, since there is no way in which I could assemble 800,000 THB in my Thai account before my next extension falls due, I have, instead, decided to switch to marriage as the reason for future annual extensions after initially seeking a 60-day extension to visit my wife so as to allow sufficient time for the required 400,000 THB to season in my Thai account. Having done some number-crunching I have calculated that I could just about afford this amount, although it will require some belt-tightening in the short term. Moreover, the major uncertainty which could scupper my plans is, of course, which way the GBP:THB exchange rate will fluctuate over coming months.
 

Edited October 8, 2018 by OJAS

[Mark1066]

1 minute ago, cyberfarang said:

And this is another hurdle to jump over that I believe immigration will implement next. As I said; be prepared.

I am prepared but it just occurred to me that such a rule change would be unfair to those with wives who earned enough to support their whole family.

[theoldgit]

Currently the UK Consulate writes letters "from" the consulate and "signed by" the Consulate, guaranteeing your income. Thats a lot of liability and responsibility, something they no longer want to do. (OP says, we are unable to verify your income)

As I recall the letter says something along the lines that Mr Bloggs has shown us evidence that he receives a pension from whoever totaling £50,000 per year, the Consular Officer then signs the letter.
The Consular Officer doesn’t actually guarantee that the subject actually receives that amount, even though those using pension income have to submit evidence, in fact there is a disclaimer at the foot of the letter actually saying they can’t guarantee the figures.
I imagine that it this disclaimer that the Thai authorities find unsatisfactory, I suspect that the Consular Section have actually decided to stop providing the letter rather than guarantee the authenticity of the letters contents.
I don’t think that the Thai authorities have changed the rules, but are now looking for meaningful evidence, which the UK Officials are unwilling to commit to.
This is my take on the whole debacle, and my opinion only.