BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[fforest1]

54 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Because bkk May as well be London re distance and travel time for many, not to mention the queue & security aspect once there which Brits are aware was key to them stopping the practice in favour of mailing them 5+ years ago.

Security?......I guess the BE has not heard of this amazing new invention called a metal detector...And I am not sure if they are aware but passports can only issued to one person,And passports have photos in them that can help ID some one...Also anther amazing new invention called the internet can be used to schedule appointments so there are no lines.....
Heck I sure would not want any employees at the BE to have to work...

[evadgib]

41 minutes ago, doctormann said:

Agreed but really no different to having to travel to Trendy in Bangkok for UK passport and visa services.

 

Brits don't need visas and passports are good for ten years therefore I cannot see any comparison.

[doctormann]

5 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Brits don't need visas and passports are good for ten years therefore I cannot see any comparison.

Their Thai spouses certainly do to visit UK and passports can fill up rapidly so may last far less than ten years.

Just pointing out that we do have to travel to Bangkok on occasion anyway.  Agreed that this is inconvenient if you live up country but that's life!

[evadgib]

11 minutes ago, fforest1 said:

Security?......I guess the BE has not heard of this amazing new invention called a metal detector...And I am not sure if they are aware but passports can only issued to one person,And passports have photos in them that can help ID some one...Also anther amazing new invention called the internet can be used to schedule appointments so there are no lines.....
Heck I sure would not want any employees at the BE to have to work...

Carry on pal. If you didn't get it at the first attempt I guess you never will ????

[evadgib]

6 minutes ago, doctormann said:

Their Thai spouses certainly do to visit UK and passports can fill up rapidly so may last far less than ten years.

Just pointing out that we do have to travel to Bangkok on occasion anyway.  Agreed that this is inconvenient if you live up country but that's life!

...my point being not annually ????

[JimGant]

Quote

-The issue of 'fake' Income letters is a non issue-  if handled correctly- If one appears in person- the Oath is taken- the person signs in front of the Embassy Official- a seal- dated and signed is embossed and imprinted into the paper.  The problem occurs when the BE allows its applicants to use the mail to get the letter- no Oath; No signed/raised seal and no signature in front of the Embassy Official.

Rubbish. Thai Immigration isn't stupid enough to believe the fear of committing perjury is a much stronger deterrent to providing false income figures than by sending an email with photoshopped forms. In fact, as someone has already pointed out, the BE's asking for any kind of income proof is a far superior speedbump to having some American vagrant -- who's never heard of photoshop, but who also has no need to have heard of it -- raise his right hand and swear he's telling the truth.

 

But this is where Thai Immigration is finally saying 'enough is enough' of allowing farong keynoks, with false income statements, however obtained, from clogging up civilized venues -- and unpaid for hospital beds. If the creep with the income statement has a lewd tattoo on his cheek, and an exposed navel piercing, by golly, Thai Immigration please thoroughly vet his proof of income. And, by some reports, this seems to be where we're heading.

 

But what we may see even more of is a requirement for a combo method, if one is to use the income method. Yes, no need for the 800k requirement -- but maybe a year of never going below 300k would 'show the cash" to Immigration -- while appeasing somewhat those who want no more than necessary of their cash in a Thai bank. Plus, you could label such accounts as collateral accounts, allowing hospitals to collect from deadbeat farangs without insurance.

 

No, not sure where the BE is coming from -- if Immigration is allowing the Yanks to still issue "questionable" income statements, as long as it is disclaimed, what's with the Brits? Not a cash cow? Christ, raise the fees. You weren't very clever to raise taxes on tea in Boston -- 200 plus years ago. Somehow I see the same bureaucratic mindset still in place.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, mfd101 said:

As I understand it - from amongst the 1100 preceding messages - the British consular function is now so comprehensively 'outsourced' & geographically 'updated' that it would take a cultural & physical revolution for them to be able to receive their flesh'n blood citizens in person to have their signatures witnessed ...

More than a few of us (I suspect) would find it v. difficult to travel to Bangkok to have our signatures witnessed - making this possible 'solution' far from ideal.  Consequently, I'm going to have to pay an agent to get my passport renewed ☹️.

 

The postal service worked well previously, and the BE stands alone in deciding to stop issuing proof of income letters.

 

 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

More than a few of us (I suspect) would find it v. difficult to travel to Bangkok to have our signatures witnessed - making this possible 'solution' far from ideal.  Consequently, I'm going to have to pay an agent to get my passport renewed ☹️.

 

The postal service worked well previously, and the BE stands alone in deciding to stop issuing proof of income letters.

 

 

So don't you think that there will be more people using agents in future because of the BE refusal to co-operate with its own citizens Dick?

[evadgib]

44 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Sorry to contradict you but I think that there is evidence that fake Embassy letters have been submitted to immigration.  A number of TV members (including myself) have reported on TV that when they have presented their Embassy letter to immigration the IO demands that the letter is ‘certified’ by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.  The certification is in fact authentication of the signature.

 

From the reports on TV it would appear that this requirement was confined to a small number of offices.

 

When I asked the IO why this was necessary, I was informed that immigration have received a number of fakes and this requirement was to ensure the document was authentic.

 

As a side issue… Have you ever been down the Khao San Road in BKK before they cleaned it up a few months ago?  Famous for fake documents, IDs, degrees etc.  I’m sure that you could also obtain an Embassy letter, pension or bank statement (at a price) if required.  Too late now though, it’s all been sanitised by BKK Metro Authority.

If such letters exist the only people fooled are the idiots that bought 'em!

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

So don't you think that there will be more people using agents in future because of the BE refusal to co-operate with its own citizens Dick?

Yes, and they will be people with entirely legitimate proof of income that are unable to provide the REQUIRED letter from their embassy - who have decided that they can't be bothered to provide this minimal (and paid for) service to their citizens. ☹️

[Pattaya46]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Yes. 

Not if they are serious about the "crackdown" already started on the Agents helping to get illegal Extensions... 

[dick dasterdly]

8 minutes ago, vogie said:

So don't you think that there will be more people using agents in future because of the BE refusal to co-operate with its own citizens Dick?

 

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

Yes, and they will be people with entirely legitimate proof of income that are unable to provide the REQUIRED letter from their embassy - who have decided that they can't be bothered to provide this minimal (and paid for) service to their citizens. ☹️

 

Just now, Pattaya46 said:

Not if they are serious about the "crackdown" already started on the Agents helping to get illegal Extensions... 

Good point, but I expect that particular 'crackdown' will only last a short while....

[ukrules]

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

There is ample evidence regarding the scammers: the expat who borrows the money from an agent and then repays it after the visa is recieved and the expat who buys income letters from the internet, both have been widely admitted here on TVF over the years - post 1068 above confirms this to be true.

I've known many people who have faked their income over the years but it never involved borrowing any money or the immigration department.

 

They did it with the help of someone who worked at a bank and provided letters / whatever was needed for them to complete their extension.

 

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

I would have thought by showing the British Embassy our documents as to where our funds originate from it would make it less fraudulent than the other embassies.

You would have thought... but the thrust of Thaidream's hypothesis is that nobody at the BE ever actually meets the person who is requesting them to verify their financial bona fides. It is all done by donloaded forms, online payments and snail-mail these days whereas the sworn affidavit at the US and certain other legations is done in-person.

[simoh1490]

13 minutes ago, ukrules said:

I've known many people who have faked their income over the years but it never involved borrowing any money or the immigration department.

 

They did it with the help of someone who worked at a bank and provided letters / whatever was needed for them to complete their extension.

 

There are many variations of the same theme, the new policies seem aimed at getting rid of all of them at one stroke.

[theoldgit]

Basically because they are now actively participating in an overall UK Government strategy to make life for us expat Brits living in Thailand as miserably difficult as is humanly possible.

Ha Ha, maybe it’s part of their objective to drive retirees back to the UK so they can pay them the unfrozen state pension rate.
I find it quite ironic that Consular staff are not able to verify my Civil Service and State pension evidence whilst UKVI staff, previously in the same building, were perfectly capable of doing so when submitted as supporting evidence for my wife’s visit visa applications over the years.

[Spidey]

12 minutes ago, ukrules said:

I've known many people who have faked their income over the years but it never involved borrowing any money or the immigration department.

 

They did it with the help of someone who worked at a bank and provided letters / whatever was needed for them to complete their extension.

 

Did it involve providing that information to the British Embassy?

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

You would have thought... but the thrust of Thaidream's hypothesis is that nobody at the BE ever actually meets the person who is requesting them to verify their financial bona fides. It is all done by donloaded forms, online payments and snail-mail these days whereas the sworn affidavit at the US and certain other legations is done in-person.

The BE are being shown proof of the payments and where it originates, these documents are originals and are admittedly then downloaded to the Embassy. But in past years the documents had to be physically sent by post, why the BE changed the system, we don't know. Would you not concur that seems less fraudulent than somebody saying what they receive in pension payments, under oath or not.

[ukrules]

3 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Did it involve providing that information to the British Embassy?

No, it involved proving that you have 800k in the bank. In which case you don't need to go to the embassy do you?

[theoldgit]

As I understand it - from amongst the 1100 preceding messages - the British consular function is now so comprehensively 'outsourced' & geographically 'updated' that it would take a cultural & physical revolution for them to be able to receive their flesh'n blood citizens in person to have their signatures witnessed ...

Not quite true, Consular functions are not outsourced or geographically updated, all Consular services are carried out by Consular staff in house and in Bangkok.

The only caveat to that is passport applications and some specialised FCO functions which are handled in the UK.

 

[simoh1490]

I'm trying to think about the reasons why Immi. is doing this, some candidate are:

 

New boss trying to stamp his name on the role;

Genuine concern over impoverished farangs who are consuming resources for free;

High level of fraud in the visa application/renewal process;

Payback for the UK granting a visa to you know who;

Uk's loss of dominance and importance on the world stage makes them expendable to whims;

An extension of expanded xenophobia;

A good idea, poorly thought through.  

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, doctormann said:

I foresee a potential problem.

 

Even if Thai Immigration agrees to accept bank statements, showing 65k deposited per month (for retirement) - and it is still not known if they will - we will be reliant on the Thai banks to provide the statements.  I doubt very much if electronic copies from the internet will be acceptable so we shall need them to provide the real thing - duly stamped.

 

Thai banks, like any other Thai institutions, are a law unto themselves.  How easy it would be if only they would all sing from the same hymn sheet but, as we know full well, this is never the case.  So, some banks may be very reluctant to provide the statements while others may be more amenable.  My own experience - several years ago now - was trying to get TMB to come up with transfer slips that showed deposits coming from abroad.  It was like trying to get blood out of a stone but I persisted and did eventually manage to get what I wanted.  At that time there was some indication that Immigration was interested in where the money was coming from.  They never followed this up though so, in the end, the slips were unnecessary.

 

You're forecasting a problem based on your struggle in obtaining some documentary evidence of something that happened prior to the request and also a few years ago.

 

Most banks have online banking where statements are downloadable. Some like Bangkok Bank may be capped at 6-month max where one would need to make and effort to do a half-yearly download. Otherwise, they charge (I think) 100 baht for a folio print out from the proverbial head office which usually takes 2 or 3 days.

 

Since Immigration offices are also a law unto themselves, the onus would be on the applicant checking beforehand if downloaded/printed statements are accepted in lieu of the long-form ones from a Bangkok head office.

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, Expattaff1308 said:

A mate of mine yesterday called into Khon Kaen Imm Office explained the situation to them and was asked Why the embassy not give letter.

He went on to ask if I show over the year a monthly deposit into my Thai account of 65,000 (as advised by the BE) will this be acceptable...answer = No, no letter must have 800k in Bank.

So there lies the problem the BE is saying one thing and advising us what will cause us problems come extension....and it seems the Immigration offices have not been informed of any change so are sticking to the usual routes available to us. 400/800k in bank or Income Letter from the Embassy.

 

Assuming this change doesn't happen until January 1st, 2019 what makes you think the local immigration offices around the country will be notified any time before the middle of January?

 

 

[evadgib]

16 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

You would have thought... but the thrust of Thaidream's hypothesis is that nobody at the BE ever actually meets the person who is requesting them to verify their financial bona fides. It is all done by donloaded forms, online payments and snail-mail these days whereas the sworn affidavit at the US and certain other legations is done in-person.

You're missing the bit about passport copies being checked against HMPO database to see if they have been reported lost or stolen.

[Expattaff1308]

12 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

Ha Ha, maybe it’s part of their objective to drive retirees back to the UK so they can pay them the unfrozen state pension rate.
I find it quite ironic that Consular staff are not able to verify my Civil Service and State pension evidence whilst UKVI staff, previously in the same building, were perfectly capable of doing so when submitted as supporting evidence for my wife’s visit visa applications over the years.

and at 52 quid a letter they can afford to employ a handful of junior clerks to carry out the verifying.

[simoh1490]

2 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

and at 52 quid a letter they can afford to employ a handful of junior clerks to carry out the verifying.

You haven't been to the UK for a while, the value of the Pound is nowhere what it once was.

[Expattaff1308]

4 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

Assuming this change doesn't happen until January 1st, 2019 what makes you think the local immigration offices around the country will be notified any time before the middle of January?

 

 

I didnt, but the point I was trying to make is the advise given to us by the BE, you would think if this advise has been agreed a statement to that effect would be made...ie we have been in negotiations with the Thai authorities and they have agreed etc etc and a statement will be issued in the coming months confirming this change by the Imm dept.....

[Expattaff1308]

Just now, simoh1490 said:

You haven't been to the UK for a while, the value of the Pound is nowhere what it once was.

52 quid is 52 quid and paid to the British Embassy per letter which would enable them to employ some junior clerks to do the checks from the Embassy

[ukrules]

2 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

I didnt, but the point I was trying to make is the advise given to us by the BE, you would think if this advise has been agreed a statement to that effect would be made...ie we have been in negotiations with the Thai authorities and they have agreed etc etc and a statement will be issued in the coming months confirming this change by the Imm dept.....

I suspect the British Embassy is attempting to persuade immigration into accepting the same document they've always accepted.

 

They're pushing back.

[evadgib]

2 minutes ago, ukrules said:

I suspect the British Embassy is attempting to persuade immigration into accepting the same document they've always accepted.

 

They're pushing back.

...or tactfully telling then to trust the likes of paperwork presented from DWP and bang up/deport  anyoone found to be deliberately taking the p...