BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[tropo]

7 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

 According to the BE interview, they would issue only 3'000 income letters a year. That would mean at worse 5% of British expats, not 50% 

 

I read somewhere (can't remember where) that about half of expats use income letters. You're suggesting that at least 95% of British expats use the bank deposit method? Really?

[Kadilo]

I think it’s not beyond the realms of possibilities that, along with a load of other “confirmed” statements she made, the one re the numbers on income statements is baloney

[JimGant]

Quote

As Stat decs were discontinued years ago (in favour of the current system to prevent the 12 hr trip to bkk & the security threat posed by a potentially attractive target) this is unlikely.

And if the Yanks and Aussies are allowed to continue as they have with their income statements, it will become apparent that the Thais prefer form over function, i.e., gov't to gov't interface will be in accordance with established diplomatic and consular procedures. And the Yanks and Aussies require the well established form of in-person attestation and oath administration.

 

But, if the BE comes to the conclusion that it doesn't have the resources to require in-person attestation -- even tho' the workload would certainly diminish from the current mail-in numbers -- don't expect income letters in the future (unless the Thais decide to sidestep traditional consular protocol and allow mail-ins -- but only for certifiable government pensions, as in the Swiss example).

 

Sorry to ramble, but the history of consular relationships is enlightening, particularly with the current subject matter (from US sources):

Quote

"Notarial and authentication services are one of the oldest traditional consular functions dating back to Statute I, Session I, Chapter 24 of April 14, 1792, 'An Act Concerning Consuls and Vice Consuls'."

"Notarial functions of consuls are included in the earliest treaties dating back to the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. In modern times, ... of the multilateral Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963, 21 U.S.T. 77, authorizes consular officers to perform notarial functions."

"Notarizing officers at U.S. Embassies and Consulates require the personal appearance of the person requesting the notarial service; establish the identity of the person requesting the service; establish that the person understands the nature, language and consequences of the document to be notarized; and establish that the person is not acting under duress."

Anyway, the one thing that notarizing officers can't do is authenticate or certify documents (except passports and/or the seals on foreign documents). This is spelled out specifically on the US Embassy website for Thailand. But, it's curious to see this inclusion:

 

Quote

Affidavits
Oftentimes the Thai government requests the U.S. Embassy or Consulate General Chiang Mai to “certify” documents listed under “services we cannot provide.” Please note the Embassy and Consulate CAN notarize an affidavit which may or may not satisfy the Thai requirement for “certification.”

 

And, I guess, that remains to be seen re the Yanks. As for the Brits -- good luck with that crowd of your less than inspiring "diplomats."

 

 

[Shoeless Joe]

In retrospect I think everyone reading the TV posts on this subject understands that the radio interview with the woefully inadequate, second-rate, British Embassy staffer was less than useful. Not least of all because the responses to the questions were either ambiguous or just plain wrong and which were only prompted by the gentle, obsequious probing by a sycophantic interviewer, (which didn't help either)! For goodness sake, as a result of the furore generated by this statement why on earth has this not been followed up?

 

Would it not be reasonably easy for "The Nation" newspaper (aka ThaiVisa?), to use their investigative-reporting clout to get the British Embassy to come up with some useful and meaningful answers to the important questions regarding their (the British Embassy's) decision to stop the "Pension Letters" with no prior consultation with members of the ex-pat community and even more disgracefully, having known about it and kept it secret, since May 2018?

 

This high-handed attitude surely has to stop!

 

Regards,

 

Joe

 

 

 

[Shoeless Joe]

15 minutes ago, JimGant said:

And if the Yanks and Aussies are allowed to continue as they have with their income statements, it will become apparent that the Thais prefer form over function, i.e., gov't to gov't interface will be in accordance with established diplomatic and consular procedures. And the Yanks and Aussies require the well established form of in-person attestation and oath administration.

 

But, if the BE comes to the conclusion that it doesn't have the resources to require in-person attestation -- even tho' the workload would certainly diminish from the current mail-in numbers -- don't expect income letters in the future (unless the Thais decide to sidestep traditional consular protocol and allow mail-ins -- but only for certifiable government pensions, as in the Swiss example).

 

Sorry to ramble, but the history of consular relationships is enlightening, particularly with the current subject matter (from US sources):

Anyway, the one thing that notarizing officers can't do is authenticate or certify documents (except passports and/or the seals on foreign documents). This is spelled out specifically on the US Embassy website for Thailand. But, it's curious to see this inclusion:

 

 

And, I guess, that remains to be seen re the Yanks. As for the Brits -- good luck with that crowd of your less than inspiring "diplomats."

 

 

Thanks, excellent post!

 

Joe

[steve73]

4 hours ago, Andyfez said:

Yes, I was there Tuesday also .

But I arrived 07.30 knowing it was a day after a holiday.

Quite a typical day.

Renewing retirement visa two new things I noticed:

1. I had to draw a basic map also. Buddha knows why as Google maps would bring it up much more accurately if you type in my address.

2. As I'm British I asked about the money in the bank next year, not having the option any more of the embassy income letter. The woman said I would not be able to show monthly income of 65,000 pm in a Thai bank book. 'Only 800,000 baht'.

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by steve73

[steve73]

Sorry - couldn't edit the above post to say it cam from another thread... but note point 2...

[OJAS]

9 hours ago, evadgib said:

As Stat decs were discontinued years ago (in favour of the current system to prevent the 12 hr trip to bkk & the security threat posed by a potentially attractive target) this is unlikely.

But HMPO have not, since 2014, seen any problems with 12-hour trips to Bangkok for passport renewal purposes! That said, I do agree with you that statutory declarations are unlikely to be revived, but more because of the resourcing implications they would raise for the Embassy. They're clearly striving to cut their workload, not increase it!

Edited October 17, 2018 by OJAS

[OJAS]

12 hours ago, Spidey said:

Expect people having problems from January onwards.

And these will be magnified from July after we have transitioned completely into the post-income letter era! 

[chickenslegs]

9 hours ago, Esso49 said:

As I said "Let's see next year".   

 

31 minutes ago, OJAS said:

And these will be magnified from July after we have transitioned completely into the post-income letter era! 

IF my calculations are correct

 

IF the British Embassy does not climb down from it's decision (they won't), and...

 

IF Thai immigration will not accept proof of income or equivalent foreign transfers into a Thailand bank account (early indications say they won't), and insists on the 400,000/800,000 -seasoned- bank deposits...

 

Even IF Thai immigration continues to accept the British Embassy letters up to 6 months old (not guaranteed)...

 

...some of those retired or married Brits who use the "income" method (like me), and whose extensions are due after 12 June 2019 (like me) will have to deposit the lump sum into their (solo) Thai bank accounts before 12 March 2019.

 

We now have less than 5 months to make the arrangements. So, not much time for "let's see next year".

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by chickenslegs

[Thaidream]

10 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

And, I guess, that remains to be seen re the Yanks. As for the Brits -- good luck with that crowd of your less than inspiring "diplomats."

Excellent post and research.  It should be noted that the  US: UK and Thailand are signatories of the Convention and as such accept the fact that Statutory Declarations are legal instruments.  

 

IMHO- if an applicant  signs and swears an Oath that what they are stating is true, it should be accepted as such with the provision that , if found otherwise, the applicant then becomes  subject to prosecution under both the home countries law (US, UK) and Thai Law.

 

To me, based upon all of this- there is no reason for Thailand NOT to accept the declaration and no reason for any Embassy not to issue the letter/Statutory Declaration.

 

Also, remember that a stat dec can be made for many other things- such as  legal documents; financial matters; attesting to veracity of income to obtain a mortgage-loan.  I have done many for things other than Thai Imm and so have others.

[Esso49]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Excellent post and research.  It should be noted that the  US: UK and Thailand are signatories of the Convention and as such accept the fact that Statutory Declarations are legal instruments.  

 

IMHO- if an applicant  signs and swears an Oath that what they are stating is true, it should be accepted as such with the provision that , if found otherwise, the applicant then becomes  subject to prosecution under both the home countries law (US, UK) and Thai Law.

 

To me, based upon all of this- there is no reason for Thailand NOT to accept the declaration and no reason for any Embassy not to issue the letter/Statutory Declaration.

 

Also, remember that a stat dec can be made for many other things- such as  legal documents; financial matters; attesting to veracity of income to obtain a mortgage-loan.  I have done many for things other than Thai Imm and so have others.

Thaidream, That seems the way to go to satisfy the requirements and well stated. As a Brit I find it amassing that the BE managed for years to "buck the system" by allowing people to email documents for them to then issue this certificate of income. As I said in another post I would be quite happy to provide them with original documents to substantiate my income submission but they simply did not want them.

 

Clearly this, has many have already said,  opened the system up to abuse. Also as many others likewise stated,  if you have original documents to enable you to honestly obtain a certificate of income, then no worries.

 

Who knows how many have have bucked the system up to now ? How many have used VISA agents to do likewise ?  It is probably these folk who should be the most worried.  However unless there really is change coming to Immigration,  led by "Big Joke" to stop the corruption within the Thai system, then I guess these VISA agents will unfortunately continue to flourish by providing a ways and means for people to buck the system.

 

Perhaps if the application costs for extensions were altered so that the application for retirement extensions were say 50,000 baht then that in itself may be a deterrent for those attempting to cheat, whilst allowing the extension due to marriage to remain as is.  This which would not impact those married with children, whom together with their families actually contribute to the future good of Thailand rather than the profits of beer bars in many cases perhaps often frequented by single retirees judging by many posts on TV.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Esso49

[ubonjoe]

16 hours ago, evadgib said:

As Stat decs were discontinued years ago (in favour of the current system to prevent the 12 hr trip to bkk & the security threat posed by a potentially attractive target) this is unlikely.

I am not aware of them ever doing a stat dec for proof of income at the UK embassy. The only change was that they started allowing them to be mailed in and then only accepting mailed applications.

In this day and age there is no need for the trip to Bangkok to take 12 hours or more unless a person does not want to pay for a plane ticket. I think most people live within 3 or 4 hours or less from an airport.

I have to make a trip to Bangkok every every year for my proof of income. Since immigration did the directive that one would be accepted that is up to 6 months old it has made it easier to plan a trip at my convenience. I have done a day trip to Bangkok to get one by air before.

[Thaidream]

8 minutes ago, Esso49 said:

ho knows how many have have bucked the system up to now ? How many have used VISA agents to do likewise ?  It is probably these folk who should be the most worried.  However unless there really is change coming to Immigration,  led by "Big Joke" to stop the corruption within the Thai system, then I guess these VISA agents will unfortunately continue to flourish by providing a ways and means for people to buck the system.

I. like you. and the majority of people actually can prove their income stream by various methods.  Whether the Embassy wants them or not is up to them. I have always carried back up proof when visiting Thai Imm.

 

To me, the missing piece is when the BE decided to NOT make their citizens swear an Oath that under penalty of perjury etc etc that the info submitted is true.  If an Embassy does this (make them swear an Oath) - and the Thai Imm has an issue at least they can say that the applicant has sworn an Oath- that they have told the truth and that you-the Thai Imm- always have the right to ask for proof. If you then find someone has lied- you can notify the Embassy and also refer the case to a Thai prosecutor as it is against the law to a Thai official.  

 

As an outsider looking at this- rather than say to Thai Imm- we are not doing this anymore-  I would have changed the letter a bit- make it a statutory declaration and have the citizen take the Oath and let the  system continue.  What we have now is a huge mess.

  There are also other options that would work-including outsourcing the letter to a trusted legal  office that employees British lawyers and there are many in Bangkok. I am sure there are  British citizens out there who could work with the Embassy and come up with a suitable solution to preserve what has worked for decades or make some acceptable changes to the letter (make it a stat dec!) that would be acceptable to all.

 

[anon537687643]

It’s a litany of excuses ! BE is an arm of British Foreign office and Gov and together they don’t give a flying F**** about Uk citizens overseas ! In fact gov cares more for foreigners within Uk


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

19 hours ago, Spidey said:

There are a number of posters on here that are still convinced that they will be able to turn up at their IO, next year, armed with an armful of evidence that they do have a monthly income and expect to get their visas extended. There's no telling some people.

 

There's been a million posts on this general subject spread over multiple threads....

 

But thus far, I don't believe I've seen a single official indication anywhere -- including in reported comments from local Immigration staff -- that they're going to be willing to accept any other forms of monthly income documentation WITHOUT also providing an Embassy income letter.

 

I can understand the common sense, wishful optimism on some posters' part in that regard. But AFAICT, that's all it is at this point, wishful optimism. At this point, absent some future clarification from Immigration on that point, I wouldn't want to be a British expat counting on doing a new extension of stay next year based on ATM receipts, bank statements, Transferwise memos, etc etc.

 

[5633572526]

On 10/8/2018 at 2:21 PM, sqwakvfr said:

I’m going to the US Consulate next week to get my Income Affidavit.  Of course the US never certifies anything(it is just an Affirmation Under Oath). I will ask if the US Consulate has plans to terminate this sevice?  In my case the 800K deposit is a no-go and direct depositing my pension into any Foreign Banks is also a no-go.  Maybe my time in LOS is coming to end soon?  

Please report back when you find out.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I can understand the common sense, wishful optimism on some posters' part in that regard. But AFAICT, that's all it is at this point, wishful optimism. At this point, absent some future clarification from Immigration on that point, I wouldn't want to be a British expat counting on doing a new extension of stay next year based on ATM receipts, bank statements, Transferwise memos, etc et

Unfortunately, you are correct. and if you ask an Imm Officer today- they will say No Letter- No extension. As we all know- before the IO officer  can accept another way- the  head person will have to give them  the authority and even then I can see huge problems with all Officers getting the word.  Unless  UK citizen become proactive- chaos will ensue.

[soalbundy]

29 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I am not aware of them ever doing a stat dec for proof of income at the UK embassy. The only change was that they started allowing them to be mailed in and then only accepting mailed applications.

In this day and age there is no need for the trip to Bangkok to take 12 hours or more unless a person does not want to pay for a plane ticket. I think most people live within 3 or 4 hours or less from an airport.

I have to make a trip to Bangkok every every year for my proof of income. Since immigration did the directive that one would be accepted that is up to 6 months old it has made it easier to plan a trip at my convenience. I have done a day trip to Bangkok to get one by air before.

I take the night train from Surin (sleeping wagon) take a taxi to the German embassy and I am back to Hua Lampong in time for the 10:30 AM back to Surin.

[Pattaya46]

1 hour ago, Esso49 said:

Perhaps if the application costs for extensions were altered so that the application for retirement extensions were say 50,000 baht then … //

You mean to reduce the money required for the extension ?? 

There was a topic here, not so long ago, where people were talking about a rumour of an increase of this amount. They were talking about going from 800'000 to 1'200'000… or 100'000 monthly income.

It's a very long time since the last increase from 400'00 to 800'000 - I think 2003! - and an increase to take inflation into account would not be unfair. 

[JimGant]

Quote

I take the night train from Surin (sleeping wagon) take a taxi to the German embassy and I am back to Hua Lampong in time for the 10:30 AM back to Surin

I'm sure the answer is among these 114 pages, but I must of missed it.... Anyway, what is the German procedure for issuing an income letter? Swear an oath? Provide original documentation proving income? Or what? Thanx.

[soalbundy]

7 minutes ago, JimGant said:

I'm sure the answer is among these 114 pages, but I must of missed it.... Anyway, what is the German procedure for issuing an income letter? Swear an oath? Provide original documentation proving income? Or what? Thanx.

No swearing, No signature, I show the original letters from my two pension suppliers and a screen shot of my internet banking account showing the two amounts being deposited plus passport, it all goes into the computer where my previous applications are stored and the letter is printed out in English showing the amount in Euro and Baht.

[Esso49]

Just now, soalbundy said:

No swearing, No signature, I show the original letters from my two pension suppliers and a screen shot of my internet banking account showing the two amounts being deposited plus passport, it all goes into the computer where my previous applications are stored and the letter is printed out in English showing the amount in Euro and Baht.

Seems like another very efficient process.  To difficult  for the British Embassy I guess to adopt a similar system. Tell me, from your experience, is the German Embassy staffed by German Nationals in the main or is it,  like the British Embassy, staffed mainly by locals ?

[mfd101]

Don't worry you guys! On the model of the annual monsoon-preparation announcements (usually about 2 months after the actual monsoon starts) I confidently predict an official announcement from Thai Immigration some time before the end of 2019.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, mfd101 said:

Don't worry you guys! On the model of the annual monsoon-preparation announcements (usually about 2 months after the actual monsoon starts) I confidently predict an official announcement from Thai Immigration some time before the end of 2019.

Based on what? 

[wayned]

56 minutes ago, 5633572526 said:

Please report back when you find out.

I did mine yesterday in  Bangkok and asked the same question.  The Vice Consul said that they are currently evaluating the situation and went further on to explain, which I knew , that the document only certifies what the applicant had but on it and swore under oath that it was true.   They also added additional wordage to the document to explain this.  She went on to say that Immigration wants to see proof and should accept backup information rather than the document.  Yopu should have seen her face when I accused her of talking to the "Twit" at the UK Embassy.  I told her that I always had backup but Immigration, in Nakhon Sawan, did not ever want to see it and  only wanted the document.  I confirmed this with the NS IO yesterday afternoon when I did my 1 year extension.  She said that the law would have to change before they could accept only the backup info without the Affidavit!

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Esso49 said:

Seems like another very efficient process.  To difficult  for the British Embassy I guess to adopt a similar system. Tell me, from your experience, is the German Embassy staffed by German Nationals in the main or is it,  like the British Embassy, staffed mainly by locals ?

I've only ever dealt with Germans, when you go in there is a small office with a window, like in a bank, and a German speaking Thai asks you what your business is, I just say 'Einkommensbestaetigung' and I get a ticket with a number on it and am told which room to go to, I am usually one of the first so it's all done inside 15 minuets. I always deal with the same official since years. It was funny the time I wrote a comprehensive Email to the embassy before I started using them stating what and why I wanted to use them and asked 3 questions, the answer I got back (translated) :-

 

Regarding your questions :-

(a) yes

(b) no

(c) yes

 

always to the point, no waffle.

[Expattaff1308]

A reply to my mail to the Embassy....

 

I am sorry to learn that you are unhappy with the announcement that we intend to withdraw from providing a Pension letter in Thailand from 1 January 2019.  I appreciate the difficulties that can accompany such a change in services.

 

Our British Embassy in Bangkok currently issues a pension letter as a supporting document for British nationals applying for a Thai retirement or marriage visa application.  The Thai authorities have confirmed that they want the British Embassy to verify the income of British nationals which they are unable to do.  They/We would refer such requests to the issuing authority.   Therefore, the current letter does not fulfil the Thai authorities requirements so we need to stop issuing it so it is not misinterpreted as verification.

 

We are unable to provide a Statutory Declaration  to fulfil these requirements as this is not a service which we provide. The services which are provided by the British Embassy can be found here; https://www.gov.uk/guidance/notarial-and-documentary-services-guide-for-thailand#services-we-provide-in-thailand

 

When withdrawing a service we do look at what other options are available to the customer to assist them in meeting the requirements of the receiving authority.  There is an alternative for customers to demonstrate that they meet the financial requirement for their retirement or marriage visa by holding a Thai bank account showing the minimum funds needed.   

 

To assist customers, our Embassy in Bangkok has published details on their website of the change in service and what option is available to customers and what those requirements are.  Further details can be found at:  

at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-embassy-bangkok-to-stop-certification-of-income-letters

 

Regards

 

Sarah Peth  Deputy Consul & Head of Operations

[JusticeGB]

I have just received this from the British Embassy

"Our British Embassy in Bangkok currently issues a pension letter as a supporting document for British nationals applying for a Thai retirement or marriage visa application.  The Thai authorities have confirmed that they want the British Embassy to verify the income of British nationals which they are unable to do.  They/We would refer such requests to the issuing authority.   Therefore, the current letter does not fulfil the Thai authorities requirements so we need to stop issuing it so it is not misinterpreted as verification."

 

Obviously Thai Immigration is behind this move so for once the British Embassy is not to blame. It would seem that in due course all other Embassies will be affected. I have never understood why a copy of UK bank statement and a Thai Bank statement hasn't been sufficient evidence for Immigration. I know of people who do falsify the information that they give the Embassy to verify. Those people have caused the problem.

[dick dasterdly]

18 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

A reply to my mail to the Embassy....

 

I am sorry to learn that you are unhappy with the announcement that we intend to withdraw from providing a Pension letter in Thailand from 1 January 2019.  I appreciate the difficulties that can accompany such a change in services.

 

Our British Embassy in Bangkok currently issues a pension letter as a supporting document for British nationals applying for a Thai retirement or marriage visa application.  The Thai authorities have confirmed that they want the British Embassy to verify the income of British nationals which they are unable to do.  They/We would refer such requests to the issuing authority.   Therefore, the current letter does not fulfil the Thai authorities requirements so we need to stop issuing it so it is not misinterpreted as verification.

 

We are unable to provide a Statutory Declaration  to fulfil these requirements as this is not a service which we provide. The services which are provided by the British Embassy can be found here; https://www.gov.uk/guidance/notarial-and-documentary-services-guide-for-thailand#services-we-provide-in-thailand

 

When withdrawing a service we do look at what other options are available to the customer to assist them in meeting the requirements of the receiving authority.  There is an alternative for customers to demonstrate that they meet the financial requirement for their retirement or marriage visa by holding a Thai bank account showing the minimum funds needed.   

 

To assist customers, our Embassy in Bangkok has published details on their website of the change in service and what option is available to customers and what those requirements are.  Further details can be found at:  

at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-embassy-bangkok-to-stop-certification-of-income-letters

 

Regards

 

Sarah Peth  Deputy Consul & Head of Operations

It appears they are finally admitting that in future Brit. citizens will only have the 800k bht in Thai bank route ☹️.

 

I received a similar, although less detailed, response a few days ago.

 

"Thank you for your email.

 

Following a meeting with Thai Immigration where they confirmed they believed we were verifying the income of British Nationals living in Thailand, and expected us to do so, a decision was made to cease providing income/pension letters as we are unable to fulfil Immigration’s requirement, as we cannot verify income of British Nationals."