BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, luckyluke said:

"No way would I get my German letter if I couldn't produce original documents" 

Same at Austrian Consulate, the secretary (Now Vice-Consul) of the Honorary Consul is, I think, something as 10 years at the job. 

She knows better the documents than the Austrians, Belgians, Dutch, Germans, Luxembourgers who use the services of the consulate. 

Don't think one can foolish her. 

And the "Income Letter" they issue is not an Affidavit but a document issued and signed by the Honorary Consul or the Vice Consul stating the amount in Euro and in ThB the expat has, not what he claim he has. 

Usually people go there the same day or eventually the day before they go to Immigration. 

same as the German letter,...positive tones.

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, wayned said:

What should happen is that representatives of the Embassies and Thai Immigration should form a team to evaluate the problem and come up with a way to solve it that is agreeable to all.  I know that it will never happen and the clod medicine that I am taking must be affecting my reasoning!

How about automatic PR for everyone after a set probationary period of say 3-5 unblemished years in the Kingdom & 'Grandfathered' for those that already qualify? They could even include a reset button for drunk drivers ????

Edited October 29, 2018 by evadgib

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, evadgib said:

How about automatic PR for everyone after a set probationary period of say 3-5 unblemished years in the Kingdom & 'Grandfathered' for those that already qualify?

good idea, so it won't happen

[Mike Teavee]

46 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

If Brits aren't able to show supporting docs despite having the embassy letter then BE hasn't shown due diligence. No way would I get my German letter if I couldn't produce original documents, so no I don't think other embassies will follow the BE.

Brits are able to show supporting documents but It's not difficult to forge a Bank/Income statement so the British Embassy is not able to verify these are 100% true (especially as applications are done via email which obviously involves scanning supporting documents making them even easier to forge.

 

US Embassy is merely certifying that it was you that signed the piece of paper, what that paper states/claims isn't verified, just the identity of the individual who signed it. 

 

 

How long you think Thai Immigration will continue to accept Embassy Income certificates without further proof from other countries after they stop accepting them from British/US Embassies & get used to asking people for supporting evidence (assuming this is an option going forward) & if you can get an extension by just showing the underlying documents why would anybody bother getting an Embassy letter?

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Mike Teavee

[wgdanson]

2 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

and if you can get an extension on just showing the underlying documents why would anybody bother getting an Embassy letter?

You cannot...I do not think the Thai IO would be able to decipher/understand English, or German, or French bank or Pension Company statements or share trading /spread betting documents. They,IO, leave it up to the relevant Embassy to do that work and simply present a final condensed version. But as the Embassies cannot or will not do the deciphering as asked for by IO, NO LETTER.

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

ow long you think Thai Immigration will continue to accept Embassy Income certificates without further proof from other countries after they stop accepting them from British/US Embassies & get used to asking people for supporting evidence (assuming this is an option going forward) & if you can get an extension by just showing the underlying documents why would anybody bother getting an Embassy letter?

There is no 100% way to pve what Tha Imm allegedly is asking- The Us Social Security office has a privacy act- but as a recipient- you can log in and get a letter that gives income. The Same for Military Retirement; the same for  Company pensions-  Loan Companies cannot even call your place of employment to  verify employment.

 

To me- the system used by the US Embassy was as good as it gets- you swear under Oath that what you said is true subject to penalty of perjury.  You go to Thai Imm- they can and have asked for backup proof. If you don't have the proof- no extension or if they believe you have lied they can notify the FBI  who has an office in the US Embassy Bangkok- The penalty for perjury is 5 years in Prison and/or a large fine.  The US and UK are not like Thailand- Thailand has no Data Protection Laws but UK and US do-

Thailand is in no position to tell the UK or USA to change their laws but Thai imm can either accept the proof without the letter or change the Immigration act.  It is hoped they will understand  the dilemma and  allow pension letters etc plus foreign bank statements.  If they also  had applicants swear the info was true and accurate and have them sign a statement to that- it would make people think twice about lying. It is a crime in Thailand to lie to the police. That's what the Embassy Letter was all about- 

[wayned]

12 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Brits are able to show supporting documents but It's not difficult to forge a Bank/Income statement so the British Embassy is not able to verify these are 100% true (especially as applications are done via email which obviously involves scanning supporting documents making them even easier to forge.

 

US Embassy is merely certifying that it was you that signed the piece of paper, what that paper states/claims isn't verified, just the identity of the individual who signed it. 

The US Embassy says that they can't certify any documents presented to them so they don't require any and they won't certify that the number that you put on the form is correct.  However, they do make you swear under oath that the number is correct and they are basically certifying your signature on the sworn document.

 

The Brits can't certify it either so why do they require it.  They issue the letter with the number on it but they do not make the individual swear under oath that it is correct, so the document means absolutely nothing!

[luckyluke]

^

My documents are in Flemish, except in the North part of Belgium, no one speaks Flemish in the world. 

The Vice-Consul of the Austrian Consulate is familiar with those documents written in Flemish. The Immigration at Jomtien trust her when she write and undersigned a document stating I have enough income. 

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Brits are able to show supporting documents but It's not difficult to forge a Bank/Income statement so the British Embassy is not able to verify these are 100% true (especially as applications are done via email which obviously involves scanning supporting documents making them even easier to forge.

 

US Embassy is merely certifying that it was you that signed the piece of paper, what that paper states/claims isn't verified, just the identity of the individual who signed it. 

 

 

How long you think Thai Immigration will continue to accept Embassy Income certificates from other countries after they stop accepting them from British/US Embassies get used to asking people for the underlying proof (assuming this is an option going forward) and if you can get an extension on just showing the underlying documents why would anybody bother getting an Embassy letter?

 

There is a logical reasons for using embassies, the letter is an easy method for IO, a Frenchmans documents would be in French, his own embassy can read them, a Germans documents would be in German his own....but you get my meaning, it makes it easier when the different embassies can examine the documents and say with a high degree of certainty, the expat has such and such an income and say so in English. They see hundreds of these documents each week, it isn't easy to fool them and there are not that many people, especially the older generation, who can or would bring up enough criminal energy and skill to start forging. The US system is totally out of order, it is easy to lie and the chance of being caught is negligible, should never have been accepted.

[soalbundy]

14 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

You cannot...I do not think the Thai IO would be able to decipher/understand English, or German, or French bank or Pension Company statements or share trading /spread betting documents. They,IO, leave it up to the relevant Embassy to do that work and simply present a final condensed version. But as the Embassies cannot or will not do the deciphering as asked for by IO, NO LETTER.

you just beat me to it but I've posted already.

[soalbundy]

10 minutes ago, wayned said:

The US Embassy says that they can't certify any documents presented to them so they don't require any and they won't certify that the number that you put on the form is correct.  However, they do make you swear under oath that the number is correct and they are basically certifying your signature on the sworn document.

 

The Brits can't certify it either so why do they require it.  They issue the letter with the number on it but they do not make the individual swear under oath that it is correct, so the document means absolutely nothing!

The fact that you are offering up the documents to the embassy as proof of income is swearing. Holding up your right hand and swearing an oath is just theatrics.

[Sheryl]

23 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

There is a logical reasons for using embassies, the letter is an easy method for IO, a Frenchmans documents would be in French, his own embassy can read them, a Germans documents would be in German his own....but you get my meaning, it makes it easier when the different embassies can examine the documents and say with a high degree of certainty, the expat has such and such an income and say so in English. They see hundreds of these documents each week, it isn't easy to fool them and there are not that many people, especially the older generation, who can or would bring up enough criminal energy and skill to start forging. The US system is totally out of order, it is easy to lie and the chance of being caught is negligible, should never have been accepted.

It appears the Australian system is the same as the US, so that it is 2 Embassies that have been issuing letters that simply attest that the person has sworn that they have X income, not that the Embassy has seen documentation to that effect.

 

That the Thai authorities have figured this out and it is not acceptable to them, I can understand.  That those 2 Embassies are unwilling to undertake a review of documentation, I do not condone, but I understand. It would certainly add to their workload.

 

What I can't understand is what the BE problem is since by all accounts they have always required supporting documentation and reviewed it prior to issuing letters, the same as what is being described as the procedure followed by Canada, Germany etc.

 

There seems to be some obsession with the meaning of "verification" and apparently someone in the Brit government has taken it to have a strict legal meaning that would entail verifying income at source. That is crazy. Nobody can reasonably do that and whatever system Thai Immigration can put in place for those who lack Embassy letters won't do it either. The most anyone in Thailand, whether Embassy staff or TI, can do is require supporting documentation and review it to insure it supports the amount claimed to be income.  And that is far easier for an Embassy to do than TI given language barrier and familiarity with document formats etc.

 

 

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It appears the Australian system is the same as the US, so that itis 2 Embassies that have been issuing letters that simply attest that the person has sworn that they have X income, not that the Embassy has seen documentation to that effect.

 

That the Thai authorities have figured this out and it is not acceptable to them, I can understand.  That those 2 Embassies are unwilling to undertake a review of documentation, I do not condone, but I understand. It would certainly add to their workload.

 

What I can't understand is what the BE problem is since by all accounts they have always required supporting documentation and reviewed it prior to issuing letters, the same as what is being described as the procedure followed by Canada, Germany etc.

 

There seems to be some obsession with the meaning of "verification" and apparently someone in the Brit government has taken it to have a strict legal meaning that would entail verifying income at source. That is crazy. Nobody can reasonably do that and whatever system Thai Immigration can put in place for those who lack Embassy letters won't do it either. The most anyone in Thailand, whether Embassy staff or TI, can do is require supporting documentation and review it to insure it supports the amount claimed to be income.  And that is far easier for an Embassy to do than TI given language barrier and familiarity with document formats etc.

 

understand

I thoroughly agree with you, some officious Brit official with PC branded on his forehead became afraid of his own shadow and whispered to TI, ''Is this system, excuse my use of the word, legal''? As for the Australians,I am aware that they use the affidavit system as well but perhaps with a twist, perhaps an Australian can answer that but it has already been said here that they will continue issuing.

[blackhorse]

It appears the Australian system is the same as the US, so that it is 2 Embassies that have been issuing letters that simply attest that the person has sworn that they have X income, not that the Embassy has seen documentation to that effect.
 
That the Thai authorities have figured this out and it is not acceptable to them, I can understand.  That those 2 Embassies are unwilling to undertake a review of documentation, I do not condone, but I understand. It would certainly add to their workload.
 
What I can't understand is what the BE problem is since by all accounts they have always required supporting documentation and reviewed it prior to issuing letters, the same as what is being described as the procedure followed by Canada, Germany etc.
 
There seems to be some obsession with the meaning of "verification" and apparently someone in the Brit government has taken it to have a strict legal meaning that would entail verifying income at source. That is crazy. Nobody can reasonably do that and whatever system Thai Immigration can put in place for those who lack Embassy letters won't do it either. The most anyone in Thailand, whether Embassy staff or TI, can do is require supporting documentation and review it to insure it supports the amount claimed to be income.  And that is far easier for an Embassy to do than TI given language barrier and familiarity with document formats etc.
 
 

Shhhh.. Us Australians prefer to [emoji574] fly under the radar [emoji16]

[KiChakayan]

22 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

shockingly surprised, no due diligence

I insert the link, for those who read French, 

It is right at the top in the grey boxes.

https://th.ambafrance.org/Attestations-certificats-declarations

[soalbundy]

9 minutes ago, KiChakayan said:

I insert the link, for those who read French, but it is unlikely to stay. 

It is right at the top in the grey boxes.

https://th.ambafrance.org/Attestations-certificats-declarations

I'm starting to have some understanding for the TI attitude, could it not be that all they are saying is, 'take us seriously and make an effort, play the game properly and stop taking the p1ss.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

57 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

What I can't understand is what the BE problem is since by all accounts they have always required supporting documentation and reviewed it prior to issuing letters, the same as what is being described as the procedure followed by Canada, Germany etc.

 

Ditto on that point. AFAIK, the British Embassy up till now has probably gone as far as is humanely possible for an Embassy in a foreign country to certify/verify/confirm the income of its expat citizens -- certainly much farther than the American Embassy ever went.

 

So we're now left with a situation where, at least for the time being, many other less certifying embassies than the Brits are continuing to issue income letters. So the question becomes, what's Thai Immigration going to do with the start of 2019 --  stop accepting any income letters, or only from those Embassies that have ceased to issue them.

 

Until that part shakes out, it still seems to remain kind of murky just who's chiefly responsible for this mess -- Thai Immigration, or the two Embassies for failing to manage the Thai bureaucracy.

 

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

What I can't understand is what the BE problem is since by all accounts they have always required supporting documentation and reviewed it prior to issuing letters,

My suspicion is that Thai authorities expressed a (laughable and somewhat naive) threat to attempt holding Foreign Govts feet-to-a-fire as per a domestic guarantor.

Edited October 29, 2018 by evadgib

[OJAS]

3 hours ago, logres212 said:

Just found this statement on the Australian Embassy website. Looks as though everything remains the same, for now anyway.

We understand that the British Embassy in Bangkok will no longer be providing British nationals with letters confirming their income from 1 January 2019.

The Australian Embassy does not issue income letters. Our notarial services include the witnessing of Australian statutory declarations for Australian citizens, or for use in Australia. This process remains unchanged.

.

But will not Immigration be expecting the Australian Embassy to provide verification of these statutory declarations? This appears to be the stumbling-block for not only British Embassy income letters but also American Embassy affidavits which, as I understand them, are modelled on identical lines to Australian statutory declarations. It might therefore be worthwhile specifically checking with the Australian Embassy how they are planning to comply with Immigration's verification requirements in the case of the statutory declarations which they witness, since those making such declarations might otherwise run the risk of finding them not worth the paper they are written on come extension of stay application time.

 

Ditto with all other embassies who are not planning to withdraw their income confirmation services, I think. 

[Mark1066]

On 10/27/2018 at 1:07 PM, soalbundy said:

Yes and everyone was happy but then they issued a caveat at the bottom of the letter, totally unnecessary, provocative one could say, TI had to react.

Unless you actually work at the consular division of the embassy, how do you know why they added this caveat? What you and others really seem to have a problem with is that the BE is not prepared to be ambiguous and fudge the issue just for our convenience. It's ironic really: so many posters on here spend an awful lot of time moaning about incompetent and dishonest local public officials but apparently it's OK to be dishonest, incompetent and ambiguous when it suits you?

[mfd101]

1 hour ago, KiChakayan said:

I insert the link, for those who read French, 

It is right at the top in the grey boxes.

https://th.ambafrance.org/Attestations-certificats-declarations

Ha ha. Well, no nonsense with the French, parbleu! Just get on with it, mes amis.

[mfd101]

4 hours ago, logres212 said:

Just found this statement on the Australian Embassy website. Looks as though everything remains the same, for now anyway.

We understand that the British Embassy in Bangkok will no longer be providing British nationals with letters confirming their income from 1 January 2019.

The Australian Embassy does not issue income letters. Our notarial services include the witnessing of Australian statutory declarations for Australian citizens, or for use in Australia. This process remains unchanged.

.

Soon to be OBE, I should think.

 

When I did my stat dec at Fortress Australia a month ago, the only thing that was different from a year ago was that they kept my Federal superannuation [CSS] statement COPY this year. Didn't study it though before completing business with me.

[soalbundy]

20 minutes ago, Mark1066 said:

Unless you actually work at the consular division of the embassy, how do you know why they added this caveat? What you and others really seem to have a problem with is that the BE is not prepared to be ambiguous and fudge the issue just for our convenience. It's ironic really: so many posters on here spend an awful lot of time moaning about incompetent and dishonest local public officials but apparently it's OK to be dishonest, incompetent and ambiguous when it suits you?

when it suits the system it was meant for

[mfd101]

4 hours ago, frodo77 said:

I have to provide documents to prove my income before my Canadian Embassy will issue the proof of income letter.

So how do the documents you provide 'PROVE' your income? If everyone could manage that magic proof, there wouldn't be a problem!  I assume you mean that the documents you provide SUPPORT YOUR claims about your income, but it's hard to see how they PROVE anything.

 

Which is the nub of the problem: the Thais say they want something which noone in Thailand can give them, short of a 1-month wait as assorted police forces and taxation agencies around the world leap into action with thousands of new employees whose sole job is to fix Thailand's immigration problems ... It could be of course that the Thais don't really want PROOF at all: it's just a mistranslation which the embassies could point out and it would all then just go away as a misunderstanding!

[khastan]

Today I have been to Nong Khai Immigration to do my 90 day report. I took the opportunity to ask how long a British Embassy income letter was good for and he told me six months. He asked why so I told him that from January 2019 that the UK Embassy would no longer issue statements of income for its citizens. I asked him if he was aware of this and he said no!

[OneeyedJohn]

My last retirement visa in January this year shocked me.

I expected a big problem getting original documents in the Thai postal system to the British Embassy, paying the fee, either in Thai baht or pounds sterling from my bank in UK, and getting the letter back in time before the 7 days that my local immigration said it was valid for.

I was sh1tting myself.

But lo and behold the pro consul told me I could scan and email all documents to her. 19 A4 sheets of bank statements, pension letters etc etc.

I couldn't believe it.

 

They took the £52 quid from my account, gave me the letter, and I got my visa. I thought my visa difficulties were over for the rest of my life.

 

TIT - a very big one !

[soalbundy]

8 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

So how do the documents you provide 'PROVE' your income? If everyone could manage that magic proof, there wouldn't be a problem!  I assume you mean that the documents you provide SUPPORT YOUR claims about your income, but it's hard to see how they PROVE anything.

 

Which is the nub of the problem: the Thais say they want something which noone in Thailand can give them, short of a 1-month wait as assorted police forces and taxation agencies around the world leap into action with thousands of new employees whose sole job is to fix Thailand's immigration problems ... It could be of course that the Thais don't really want PROOF at all: it's just a mistranslation which the embassies could point out and it would all then just go away as a misunderstanding!

They want something that looks as if it could be reasonable proof, more can't be expected anywhere of anything so asking for legal verification is pointless, why bother. They accept your passport as real. Reasonable proof as in the embassy saying we've seen his docs he has this income (as long as the embassy really is looking at the docs)

[gaviny]

Today I have been to Nong Khai Immigration to do my 90 day report. I took the opportunity to ask how long a British Embassy income letter was good for and he told me six months. He asked why so I told him that from January 2019 that the UK Embassy would no longer issue statements of income for its citizens. I asked him if he was aware of this and he said no!

And hereby lies the crux of the problem , will they accept it 6 months later after they know it is no longer available after this year, or will they say that since it ceased in December we will no longer accept it.

Sent from my Redmi Note 6 Pro using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[mfd101]

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

They want something that looks as if it could be reasonable proof, more can't be expected anywhere of anything so asking for legal verification is pointless, why bother. They accept your passport as real. Reasonable proof as in the embassy saying we've seen his docs he has this income (as long as the embassy really is looking at the docs)

I agree, but it seems [still to be clarified] that the Thais don't. That is, what seems like reasonable verification to you & me is not actually proof & therefore not sufficient - so it seems - for the Thais.

[giddyup]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

They want something that looks as if it could be reasonable proof, more can't be expected anywhere of anything so asking for legal verification is pointless, why bother. They accept your passport as real. Reasonable proof as in the embassy saying we've seen his docs he has this income (as long as the embassy really is looking at the docs)

 Nothing simpler than 800K in a Thai bank, or 65K being paid monthly into a Thai bank. That eliminates all doubt and confusion.