"Easy Ride" for pensioners in Thailand now over, says Pattaya Radio

[SheungWan]

11 minutes ago, Media1 said:

This has nothing to do with Thailand. This is the UK.

Well not quite. It is the UK responding to a Thai requirement and deciding that they could not do so in a satisfactory way. My main criticism is that more time should have been considered between the announcement and the implementation. An underestimation of the knock-on effect of the change on those involved. As for the Thai authorities, they are unlikely to review the requirement unless other Embassies respond in a similar manner and of course the UK might have tried co-ordinating with others, but in these days of sovereign independence, that might not have been top of the list. Don't know of course if there were any discussions behind the scenes.

[giddyup]

13 minutes ago, Media1 said:

I can still obtain a letter from my embassy. Nothing has changed. There is nothing to explain. You been screwed by your stupid embassy

What is it with you putting down the British and their country? "I called yesterday there is no issues. But these monkeys may give them ideas. What a terrible embassy and country"  Try and keep your prejudices out of it.

Edited October 10, 2018 by giddyup

[White Tiger]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

Well not quite. It is the UK responding to a Thai requirement and deciding that they could not do so in a satisfactory way. My main criticism is that more time should have been considered between the announcement and the implementation. An underestimation of the knock-on effect of the change on those involved. As for the Thai authorities, they are unlikely to review the requirement unless other Embassies respond in a similar manner and of course the UK might have tried co-ordinating with others, but in these days of sovereign independence, that might not have been top of the list. Don't know of course if there were any discussions behind the scenes.

It's not a new requirement. The British Embassy was apparently satisfied that it was dealing with it in the past. So why does the British Embassy now form the view that it's no longer dealing with it? 

[Kerryd]

11 minutes ago, Media1 said:

Should be petitioned

 

9 minutes ago, White Tiger said:

You start it & I'll sign it. ????

https://petition.parliament.uk/

But make sure if you start a petition that you help spread the word, and not just in Thailand. This may affect other UK citizens in other countries as well (key word "may" - I have no idea what is required in other countries for UK citizens).

 

[evadgib]

Does no one understand that an Embassy cannot act as guarantor for the authenticity of documents presented by Joe Public which has lead to this? PEOPLE TELL PORKIES regardless of nationality and Immigration are trying the ol' 'Bully Boy' chestnut hoping to levy blame in the Embassy's direction & have just discovered an alternate meaning for two of the three letters in F(C)O.

Edited October 10, 2018 by evadgib

[rott]

 Numerous laws that nobody has bothered about are suddenly being enforced, address notification for one. Where I live cafes etc have been told not to serve alcohol between 14.00 - 1700, always been the law but why now?

 

Possibly the Embassy have been pulled up about issuing unverified documents.

Edited October 10, 2018 by rott

[Media1]

4 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Does no one understand that an Embassy cannot act as guarantor for the authenticity of documents presented by Joe Public which has lead to this? PEOPLE TELL PORKIES regardless of nationality and Immigration are trying the ol' 'Bully Boy' chestnut hoping to levy blame in the Embassy's direction & have just discovered that it doesn't work.

Rubbish there is a criminal charge in your home coutry clearly stated on the document

[Media1]

30 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Well not quite. It is the UK responding to a Thai requirement and deciding that they could not do so in a satisfactory way. My main criticism is that more time should have been considered between the announcement and the implementation. An underestimation of the knock-on effect of the change on those involved. As for the Thai authorities, they are unlikely to review the requirement unless other Embassies respond in a similar manner and of course the UK might have tried co-ordinating with others, but in these days of sovereign independence, that might not have been top of the list. Don't know of course if there were any discussions behind the scenes.

Nobody is being told what to do by the UK and May

Edited October 10, 2018 by Media1

[NCC1701A]

good timing for this business:

 

 

[giddyup]

Just now, Media1 said:

Rubbish there is a criminal charge in your home coutry clearly stated on the document

There is for signing a false stat dec at the Aussie embassy as well, but never heard of anyone being charged for falsifying one yet, and it's probably seriously abused by those who haven't the necessary funds. Hopefully all embassies will follow in the Brit embassies footsteps.

[Media1]

14 minutes ago, giddyup said:

What is it with you putting down the British and their country? "I called yesterday there is no issues. But these monkeys may give them ideas. What a terrible embassy and country"  Try and keep your prejudices out of it.

They are a absolute disgrace many complaints. Been going on for months and months. Happy to be Australian. What a joke

[SheungWan]

5 minutes ago, White Tiger said:

It's not a new requirement. The British Embassy was apparently satisfied that it was dealing with it in the past. So why does the British Embassy now form the view that it's no longer dealing with it? 

Fair question. Because they would have likely reviewed the process and decided that they weren't dealing with it in a satisfactory way, whatever may have gone before. Probably falls into the general trend of financial processes being tightened up across the board.

[Media1]

21 minutes ago, White Tiger said:

It's not a new requirement. The British Embassy was apparently satisfied that it was dealing with it in the past. So why does the British Embassy now form the view that it's no longer dealing with it? 

Maybe they want you to loose your pension period

[Media1]

19 minutes ago, rott said:

 Numerous laws that nobody has bothered about are suddenly being enforced, address notification for one. Where I live cafes etc have been told not to serve alcohol between 14.00 - 1700, always been the law but why now?

 

Possibly the Embassy have been pulled up about issuing unverified documents.

All coincidence only

[White Tiger]

18 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Fair question. Because they would have likely reviewed the process and decided that they weren't dealing with it in a satisfactory way, whatever may have gone before. Probably falls into the general trend of financial processes being tightened up across the board.

As I said in an earlier post, this service probably comfortably paid for itself. So I don't accept any argument that suggests it was the result of the Embassy trying to be more financially efficient. (And as I also said before, we don't know if the policy change is being driven by the Embassy in Bangkok, or policy makers in the UK).

 

I could accept that the Embassy reviewed this process and decided they wanted to do things differently. Sometimes organisations and institutions make changes just for the sake of change. But I can't see how that would result in them ending the service, instead of continuing to provide it but maybe in a different way and perhaps at a greater cost to the user. The Embassy could, for example, have chosen to change the wording of their income letter so it more closely resembled that of other Embassies where it makes clear that the individual has sworn/attested to the amount of income. That would have freed Embassy staff from any checking of the evidence of the income and would also have continued to meet the requirements of Thai immigration regarding the income letter (which haven't changed). It would also have meant the Embassy continued to provide a useful and helpful service to British subjects living in Thailand.

Edited October 10, 2018 by White Tiger

[Kerryd]

The reason the British Embassy has decided that it will no longer issue those letters is because apparently they (and other nations) have been told, by Thai Immigration, that they could (or would) be held liable if it turned out that the information was false.

 

The Embassy has stated that they can not verify if what you are telling them is actually true or not.

There are probably very few people that are getting a government pension that alone meets the financial requirements for the "income" method. Thus they are probably also using income from investments or non-governmental pensions that, when combined, meet the requirement.

 

Of course we are talking about the people that actually do have the income to meet the requirement and aren't just "telling porkies". 

Meanwhile, the Embassy (and the Foreign Office) do not have the manpower to investigate the finances of every single Brit that is living overseas, whether you like that or not.

Not to mention that there are probably laws that prevent some branches of government from even trying to look at that information. Just because you have a government pension does not mean that each and every branch of the government has access to that information.

 

There are something like 51,000 or so Brits living in Thailand on long term Visas/Extensions of Stay it seems (according to the recent Immigration figures that claimed that 9,800 Canadians made up the largest group of foreigners).
How the **** do you expect the staff at your embassy to personally check the financial details of each and every one of those people ? (Those seem to be just the ones on Non-O and Non-B visas if I'm reading the spreadsheet right. Maybe just the Non-O visa types.)
 

Think about it. If just 10% of all those Brits (5,000ish) need income letters every year, that would mean the Embassy would have to physically investigate the financials for more than 14 people every - single - day - of the year (including holidays and days off). 
Let's say they work 6 days a week and have a total of 2 weeks of closures/holidays over the year leaving 298 "working days". That means they'd have to investigate about 17 people every - single - day.

Even if it was just 5% - that would still be 8-9 people every day. Not including the 270 who have Thailand Elite cards or the 1021 with Thailand Privilege cards.

 

And we're not even talking about how long it would take to investigate each and every person and yes, it would have to be done every year because they'd have no way of knowing if you suddenly weren't getting money from a source like you were claiming to be (or a myriad of other reasons).


 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Kerryd
math error

[bkk6060]

8 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

The reason the British Embassy has decided that it will no longer issue those letters is because apparently they (and other nations) have been told, by Thai Immigration, that they could (or would) be held liable if it turned out that the information was false.

 

 

 

Held liable for what?

That would make very agency in this country liable for???

[Rimmer]

An inflammatory post and a reply have been removed

[White Tiger]

4 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

The reason the British Embassy has decided that it will no longer issue those letters is because apparently they (and other nations) have been told, by Thai Immigration, that they could (or would) be held liable if it turned out that the information was false......

Asuming this information is in the public domain, where will I find it? There's nothing on the British Embassy website to suggest this. 

 

If it is in the public domain, just what liability do the authorities think the British Embassy could possibly have? A financial liability of some sort (no one has suffered a financial loss)? What is meant by the British Embassy will "be held liable" - are they going to declare war on us?  ????

[zydeco]

Sometimes, I think these type announcements are made for no other reason than to terrorize people.  I don't see how the UK embassy can maintain this position.  I'd expect to see some modification made to their announcement well before the 12 December deadline.

Edited October 10, 2018 by zydeco

[richiejom]

I started this below, is it worth petitioning parliament? https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230120/sponsors/new?token=DK30K4e4lQKtLa3JO0h8

 

It needs 5 people to sign to go live 'Reinstate Pension/Income Letters at Bangkok British Embassy'

 

Reinstate Pension/Income Letters at Bangkok British Embassy

 

As of the 12th of December 2018 British Citizens can no longer request a proof of income letter required to obtain a Retirement or Extension based on Marriage visa in Thailand

Other Countries Embassy's have an option to sign an affidavit that your income is true.   

 

The British Embassy has stated that this is because the Thai Immigration require proof that they cannot provide yet the current income letter already covers the embassy legally.  

 

The British Embassy has left us to resolve this with Thai immigration

The Thai immigration has not made any announcement and still requests the letter. Failing this retired or married Brits may be forced to transfer between £9-18,000 to a Thai bank as proof

 

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by richiejom

[SheungWan]

48 minutes ago, White Tiger said:

The Embassy could, for example, have chosen to change the wording of their income letter so it more closely resembled that of other Embassies where it makes clear that the individual has sworn/attested to the amount of income. That would have freed Embassy staff from any checking of the evidence of the income and would also have continued to meet the requirements of Thai immigration regarding the income letter (which haven't changed).

It would appear that a workaround Vs liability is something which the UK has decided cannot be justified. Whether other countries decide to follow the UK example remains to be seen. Swearing as to amount of income? Well that little number contributed somewhat to the sub-prime loan crisis 10 years or so ago. Its a knock-on.

Edited October 10, 2018 by SheungWan

[blackhorse]

I started this below, is it worth petitioning parliament? https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230120/sponsors/new?token=DK30K4e4lQKtLa3JO0h8
 
It needs 5 people to sign to go live 'Reinstate Pension/Income Letters at Bangkok British Embassy'
 
Reinstate Pension/Income Letters at Bangkok British Embassy
 
As of the 12th of December 2018 British Citizens can no longer request a proof of income letter required to obtain a Retirement or Extension based on Marriage visa in Thailand
Other Countries Embassy's have an option to sign an affidavit that your income is true.   
 
The British Embassy has stated that this is because the Thai Immigration require proof that they cannot provide yet the current income letter already covers the embassy legally.  
 
The British Embassy has left us to resolve this with Thai immigration
The Thai immigration has not made any announcement and still requests the letter. Failing this retired or married Brits may be forced to transfer between £9-18,000 to a Thai bank as proof
 
 

Good work. It wouldn't hurt to email the newspapers as well. It would make good headlines

" thousands of expats forced to leave families behind and booted from thailand etc etc"

[Media1]

48 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

The reason the British Embassy has decided that it will no longer issue those letters is because apparently they (and other nations) have been told, by Thai Immigration, that they could (or would) be held liable if it turned out that the information was false.

 

The Embassy has stated that they can not verify if what you are telling them is actually true or not.

There are probably very few people that are getting a government pension that alone meets the financial requirements for the "income" method. Thus they are probably also using income from investments or non-governmental pensions that, when combined, meet the requirement.

 

Of course we are talking about the people that actually do have the income to meet the requirement and aren't just "telling porkies". 

Meanwhile, the Embassy (and the Foreign Office) do not have the manpower to investigate the finances of every single Brit that is living overseas, whether you like that or not.

Not to mention that there are probably laws that prevent some branches of government from even trying to look at that information. Just because you have a government pension does not mean that each and every branch of the government has access to that information.

 

There are something like 51,000 or so Brits living in Thailand on long term Visas/Extensions of Stay it seems (according to the recent Immigration figures that claimed that 9,800 Canadians made up the largest group of foreigners).
How the **** do you expect the staff at your embassy to personally check the financial details of each and every one of those people ? (Those seem to be just the ones on Non-O and Non-B visas if I'm reading the spreadsheet right. Maybe just the Non-O visa types.)
 

Think about it. If just 10% of all those Brits (5,000ish) need income letters every year, that would mean the Embassy would have to physically investigate the financials for more than 14 people every - single - day - of the year (including holidays and days off). 
Let's say they work 6 days a week and have a total of 2 weeks of closures/holidays over the year leaving 298 "working days". That means they'd have to investigate about 17 people every - single - day.

Even if it was just 5% - that would still be 8-9 people every day. Not including the 270 who have Thailand Elite cards or the 1021 with Thailand Privilege cards.

 

And we're not even talking about how long it would take to investigate each and every person and yes, it would have to be done every year because they'd have no way of knowing if you suddenly weren't getting money from a source like you were claiming to be (or a myriad of other reasons).


 

Who's held liable lol. Listen when you make a decleration it states clearly it's a crime and punishable on the declaration. No government is being told by Thais what to do. It's a legal document period. Your statement is out of whack. THAI telling lol. 

As I said it's a UK problem period

Edited October 10, 2018 by Media1

[richiejom]

1 minute ago, blackhorse said:

Good work. It wouldn't hurt to email the newspapers as well. It would make good headlines

" thousands of expats forced to leave families behind and booted from thailand etc etc"

They only get away with this stuff when nobody stands up... It needs 5 people to sign to go live...think it needs a lot to get debated in parliament but worth a try

[Media1]

1 minute ago, richiejom said:

They only get away with this stuff when nobody stands up... It needs 5 people to sign to go live...think it needs a lot to get debated in parliament but worth a try

I not UK but l sign for you

[Kerryd]

41 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Held liable for what?

That would make very agency in this country liable for???

According to the news report in the OP, the decision was made to "avoid co-liability for the content" (of the Income Letters).

(It's mentioned at about the 1:05 mark of the video.)
 

You are free to contact the British Embassy and demand that they explain to you exactly what that means.

 

[Teee]

Why is everyone blaming the British Embassy for this.

This has come direct from the UK Govt.

Look on gov.uk website.

I dont think its a problem. The only people that should be concerned is the ones who live in Thailand with hardly any money.

I dont live in Thailand. I spent almost 1 year in Bkk and returned home in June.

Thailand is expensive.

Housing and transport is cheap and cost of hotels are cheap when i wanted to travel to the beach.

But honestly...street food from filthy road side sellers at 50bht does not appeal to me.

Cheaper to eat and drink in UK.

I never went to Thailand to go girlie bars or such (never appealed to me) as i was living with my gf (not thai).

Can all you ex pats tell me what the appeal is of living in Thailand on 15,000bht a month after taking off housing costs?

I was spending 25000bht after paying my half share of condo cost a month.

My idea of going to live somewhere other than at home in the UK watching where i spend my money and keeping tabs on how many times i go out in a month just does not do it for me.

Maybe with all that is happening in Thailand with immigration time you went back home instead of moaning.

Maybe its Thailand just had enough of people living there and not spending much money that is not helping the economy. 

Tourists are what they are wanting...not people living there and not really contributing apart from buying a 80bht Chang or Leo.

 

 

 

[Kerryd]

7 minutes ago, richiejom said:

They only get away with this stuff when nobody stands up... It needs 5 people to sign to go live...think it needs a lot to get debated in parliament but worth a try

I would suggest that if anyone happens to also be a member of any other forums (like Teachers forums or other sites) that you link the petition (not the Thai Visa post) in a post on those sites as well.

Also, contact friends/family back home and get them to sign the petition. It doesn't actually matter if they have ever been outside the country at all. All that matters (as far as the petition is concerned) is the number of people that sign it.
 

Contact your local news media sites and send them the petition link.
 

H311, sell the story to the Sun or Mirror ! They pay for all kinds of stuff. Make it look like the government is deliberately throwing it's citizens to the wolves and they'll eat it up ! (Be sure to include the link to the petition - not the Thai Visa post) and maybe it will even make national news ! 

(Make it sound like this is something that could affect all British expats, all over the world. Don't limit it to just Thailand. That way people who are in other countries or that have friends/relatives in other countries, may decide to sign the petition as well.)

[HAKAPALITA]

Can see any Embassy  wanting to confirm false statements, so thats perhaps why. There will be a way round for the genuine eventually, only the fraudsters need panic.