Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[bkk6060]

9 hours ago, zydeco said:

I brought this up on the earlier UK/American letter topic.  Yes, imagine the problem of wading through all the documents and statements.  Some people are planning to take ATM receipts!!!  And meanwhile, while you could get the letter say a week or so before you go in, now, if I understand things correctly, you will need the certified bank statement on the same day you apply for your extension (I hope this isn't true).  That means the mornings will be spent at the Bank in line and then everyone needing the extension and bank statement will probably go in during the afternoon. Long, Long, Long lines. Nobody going home until 10 pm.  Ought to make the Thai immigration staff really friendly and happy.

Which is why I believe all this will eventually be an agency representation transaction only.

Immigration loves agents not only for the money, but for the fact they are more efficient snd can process their documents much much faster.  I bet it is coming.

Edited October 27, 2018 by bkk6060

[JLCrab]

5 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Which is why I believe all this will eventually be an agency representation transaction.

... or just get the 5 year Elite Visa and screw the agents and the IMM office.

[Larryst]

Here's the plan I think I will do. This might work or not. In December I will get a income affidavit from the U.S. Embassy. In February I'll go to the Thai immigration office for renewing my retirement visa. I will have Benefit Verification Letter from SSA and deposits every month, a letter from my 401K showing I get a monthly check for life and a copy from OPM showing my direct deposit & monthly deposits. Along with prior 1099-R's. If they accept it. I will know it will work for the following years. If not then I'll submit the letter from the embassy so I get it next year. Then I will have to come up with a plan after that.

[Thaidream]

9 hours ago, pontious said:

nd what proof will you show? Everyone will have a zillion bits of  paper. It a'int gonna happen. Bits of paper that immigration do not understand is not verification

The proof that I have provided Thai imm in the past and was accepted is as follows=

 

1. Letter from Social Security showing amount monthly

2.  Letter from the Veterans Administration showing disability pension

3.  An American Bank statement showing  direct deposit of the above in the same amount and showing debits from a Thai ATM

4. Debit Cards used to get the money out

 

I had some ATM slips also- which showed the last 4 digits of my ATM cards- but they did not need them

 

There are also reports of citizens  mostly in CM showing the exact same thing.

 

Imm had no trouble reading the docs (about 4 in total-easy to understand.

 

If they accepted this from me and others- they can accept this from everyone.

[Thaidream]

32 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

And just to help understand all the proof of monthly income scenarios being proffered on this topic, here's a handy flow chart:

Exactly the same type of chart that several Thai Imm offices use.!!!

[JLCrab]

16 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

49 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

And just to help understand all the proof of monthly income scenarios being proffered on this topic, here's a handy flow chart:

Exactly the same type of chart that several Thai Imm offices use.!!!

Maybe so but it's their show.

[Scott]

Troll post reported and removed.  

[pontious]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

The proof that I have provided Thai imm in the past and was accepted is as follows=

 

1. Letter from Social Security showing amount monthly

2.  Letter from the Veterans Administration showing disability pension

3.  An American Bank statement showing  direct deposit of the above in the same amount and showing debits from a Thai ATM

4. Debit Cards used to get the money out

 

I had some ATM slips also- which showed the last 4 digits of my ATM cards- but they did not need them

 

There are also reports of citizens  mostly in CM showing the exact same thing.

 

Imm had no trouble reading the docs (about 4 in total-easy to understand.

 

If they accepted this from me and others- they can accept this from everyone.

But did you have a Embassy letter - I expect you did. Next time you will probably not. The reports I have seen from CM have been back up documents to an Embassy letter.

Edited October 28, 2018 by pontious
add

[Thaidream]

17 minutes ago, pontious said:

But did you have a Embassy letter - I expect you did. Next time you will probably not. The reports I have seen from CM have been back up documents to an Embassy letter.

If they accept it with an Embassy Letter- they can accept it without the letter.  The Embassy letter verified nothing- they know it and always knew it.  However, the Us Embassy Letter was sworn under penalty of perjury- you lie- you are subject to a criminal/civil penalty.

 

The Us Embassy and UK Embassy could have easily continued doing the letter and I believe Thai Imm would have accepted it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pontious]

5 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

If they accept it with an Embassy Letter- they can accept it without the letter.  The Embassy letter verified nothing- they know it and always knew it.  However, the Us Embassy Letter was sworn under penalty of perjury- you lie- you are subject to a criminal/civil penalty.

 

The Us Embassy and UK Embassy could have easily continued doing the letter and I believe Thai Imm would have accepted it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I take that as yes you did have a letter.

The UK and US Embassies were told by IO they had to verify the income. No Embassy will / can do that.

[rainwater]

3 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

No, they'll want to see 800k in a Thai bank, properly seasoned, or 65k transferred into a Thai bank every month (I feel like an echo).

That's NOT how I read the instructions on the Thai Immigration website, if you notice the use of the word 'or' indicating the combination method of using a pension (inferring less than 65k a month) in combination with a deposit = to 800k. That's how I interpret the language in the instructions. But I'm bias because I want to use the combo method and don't want to transfer 800k into Thailand, but it may not be so bad given the interest rate in a fixed deposit should be close to the same rate as parking cash in a USA money market account. We shall see, unless anyone has some inside information other than what's posted here:

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

The alien: (1) Must have been granted a non-immigrant visa (NON-IM). (2) Must be 50 years of age or over. (3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month; or (4) On the filing date, the applicant must have account  deposited  (saving / fixed account) in a bank in Thailand of no less than Baht 800,000 for the past three months. For the first year only, the applicant must have proof of a deposit account in which said amount of funds has been maintained for no less than 60 days prior to the filing date; or (5) Must have an annual earning and funds deposited with a bank totaling no less than Baht 800,000 as of the filing date. (6) An alien who entered the Kingdom before October 21, 1998 and has been consecutively permitted to stay in the Kingdom for retirement shall be subject to the following criteria: (a) Must be 60 years of age or over and have an annual fixed income with funds maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht 200,000 or have a monthly income of no less than Baht 20,000. (b) If less than 60 years of age but not less than 55 years of age, must have an annual fixed income with funds maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht 500,000 or have a monthly income of no less than Baht 50,000.

Documents to be submitted

1. Application form 2. Copy of applicant’s passport 3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends; and/or 4. Account  deposited  (saving / fixed account) certificate issued by a bank in Thailand and a copy of a bankbook 5. Only in the case of Criterion (6), the applicant must submit documents equivalent to Clauses 1-4 stated above.

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by rainwater

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, pontious said:

take that as yes you did have a letter.

The UK and US Embassies were told by IO they had to verify the income. No Embassy will / can do that.

That may have been what  Thnai Imm may have requested but a full explanation by the Embassy indicating that  the Us Privacy Act prohibits anyone from going direct to the source except the individual.  The Embassy could have talked about the Oath and what it represents.

 

the Embassy could have continued the letters as stated under Oath with the disclaimer on the document and let Thai Imm make the decision as to whether they would accept the letter.  Instead  both the UK and US took the easy way out.  That's how I read it.

 

At this point it doesn't matter- the decision has been made so now it is Thai Imm to  make clear in the future what they will accept as proof of income. Luckily, the current Embassy Letter will be accepted from 6 months to new extension application- giving many some breathing room to adjust their finances and proofs. At least the Embassies were able to extract that from Thai Imm.

 

Yes- I did have the letter when they asked for added proof and they accepted it. The added proof is not complicated at all- single page letters from pension provider and a one page bank summary  showing same amounts on letters coming into the account.

When I showed the US Debit Cards that sealed the deal- If they accept this in the future- I plan on presenting a letter which summarizes my proof and have that letter notarized.  Time will tell.

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, rainwater said:

No, they'll want to see 800k in a Thai bank, properly seasoned, or 65k transferred into a Thai bank every month (I feel like an echo)

You do not know for sure what they will accept as proof of income-  the current police order mentions nothing about having to transfer money monthly- it does say 'evidence' of 65K per month. Evidence can be many things-  it could be a transfer- it could be a cash deposit into a Thai bank. It could be pension documents direct deposited into a US Bank- it could  be  statement from a brokerage account-  lot's of ways to prove income.

For many of us who can still get a Embassy Letter good for 6 months- we can buy some time and get the next extension and hopefully  Thjai Imm will decide what they want as proof.

 

In addition- many other embassies  are continuing to issue letters as usual-  

[Joe Mcseismic]

10 minutes ago, rainwater said:

That's NOT how I read the instructions on the Thai Immigration website, if you notice the use of the word 'or' indicating the combination method of using a pension (inferring less than 65k a month) in combination with a deposit = to 800k. That's how I interpret the language in the instructions. But I'm bias because I want to use the combo method and don't want to transfer 800k into Thailand, but it may not be so bad given the interest rate in a fixed deposit should be close to the same rate as parking cash in a USA money market account. We shall see, unless anyone has some inside information other than what's posted here:

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

The alien: (1) Must have been granted a non-immigrant visa (NON-IM). (2) Must be 50 years of age or over. (3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month; or (4) On the filing date, the applicant must have account  deposited  (saving / fixed account) in a bank in Thailand of no less than Baht 800,000 for the past three months. For the first year only, the applicant must have proof of a deposit account in which said amount of funds has been maintained for no less than 60 days prior to the filing date; or (5) Must have an annual earning and funds deposited with a bank totaling no less than Baht 800,000 as of the filing date. (6) An alien who entered the Kingdom before October 21, 1998 and has been consecutively permitted to stay in the Kingdom for retirement shall be subject to the following criteria: (a) Must be 60 years of age or over and have an annual fixed income with funds maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht 200,000 or have a monthly income of no less than Baht 20,000. (b) If less than 60 years of age but not less than 55 years of age, must have an annual fixed income with funds maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht 500,000 or have a monthly income of no less than Baht 50,000.

Documents to be submitted

1. Application form 2. Copy of applicant’s passport 3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends; and/or 4. Account  deposited  (saving / fixed account) certificate issued by a bank in Thailand and a copy of a bankbook 5. Only in the case of Criterion (6), the applicant must submit documents equivalent to Clauses 1-4 stated above.

 

You're talking about the past and present. I'm talking about the future.

[Pib]

12 hours ago, zydeco said:

How can you tell if you are receiving your deposit to Bangkok Bank in IAT?  

Ask your bank branch....or call the POC given on the Bangkok Bank letter.   The POC on the letter told me face to face when she handed me the letter (I met with her in the HQ Bangkok Bank building on a related issue since I live in Bangkok) that HQ has sent internal instructions to all their branches on what retrieval/printout to provide which shows whether your payment is in IAT format or not.   She showed me some example/redacted printouts.  The printout will show down in the lower right hand corner  a "SEC code of IAT or PPD."   It will say along he lines: "SEC: IAT" or "SEC: PPD."   But other differences also exist on the printout like more detailed sender and recipient info....but just look for SEC IAT or PPD code as that is the simplest.   

 

But when your branch gives you the Deer-in-the-Headlights look just call the POC on the letter to ask the question....she can look up the info...plus already has a printout a mile long of folks not receiving their payments in IAT format....I saw that indexed summary list too (not individual details just many pages stapled together).  I joked with her that list  must have "hundreds" of names on it; she replied with "thousands" considering all the U.S. social security, military retirement, OPM, VA, etc., payments they receive.

 

[rainwater]

3 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

You're talking about the past and present. I'm talking about the future.

I'm talking about what's on the current site, where's the updated information and documentation/link you're talking about, what else do we have to go by???

Edited October 28, 2018 by rainwater

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

ou're talking about the past and present. I'm talking about the future.

Your opinion is welcome but so is mine and everyone else-  I shall await  the opinion of others who actually go into Thai imm and do their extensions and see what they report. There are many  Imm offices and we know they  have their own ways of handling things.  Time will tell. No one can predict the future.

[marcusarelus]

5 minutes ago, Pib said:

Ask your bank branch....or call the POC given on the Bangkok Bank letter.   The POC on the letter told me face to face when she handed me the letter (I met with her in the HQ Bangkok Bank building on a related issue since I live in Bangkok) that HQ has sent internal instructions to all their branches on what retrieval/printout to provide which shows whether your payment is in IAT format or not.   She showed me some example/redacted printouts.  The printout will show down in the lower right hand corner  a "SEC code of IAT or PPD."   It will say along he lines: "SEC: IAT" or "SEC: PPD."   But other differences also exist on the printout like more detailed sender and recipient info....but just look for SEC IAT or PPD code as that is the simplest.   

 

But when your branch gives you the Deer-in-the-Headlights look just call the POC on the letter to ask the question....she can look up the info...plus already has a printout a mile long of folks not receiving their payments in IAT format....I saw that indexed summary list too (not individual details just many pages stapled together).  I joked with her that list  must have "hundreds" of names on it; she replied with "thousands" considering all the U.S. social security, military retirement, OPM, VA, etc., payments they receive.

 

What letter from the Bangkok Bank?  What is POC?

[Thaidream]

On 10/26/2018 at 12:45 PM, Jeffrey346 said:

In the Brit Post.. They said Income Statements issued prior to Jan 1, 2019 will be honored for 6 months.

Probably safer to apply in Dec but Jan should be OK as well. 

I have used them as late as 5 months old and they didn't blink an eye. One can apply earl -up to 45 days in many Imm offices and at least 30 days early in the rest.

[ubonjoe]

12 hours ago, HAL9000 said:

Note that the US Embassy notice links to Thai immigration to see the specifics of the "timing and conditions" of the proof of income documentation. Under Required Documents for a marriage extension, the immigration website links to a file called "wife.pdf". The link is currently broken and redirects to this page:

I don't see that on this page for extensions based upon marriage to Thai. https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_18

Perhaps you could post a link for the page you were looking at.

[Pib]

2 hours ago, Larryst said:

Here's the plan I think I will do. This might work or not. In December I will get a income affidavit from the U.S. Embassy. In February I'll go to the Thai immigration office for renewing my retirement visa. I will have Benefit Verification Letter from SSA and deposits every month, a letter from my 401K showing I get a monthly check for life and a copy from OPM showing my direct deposit & monthly deposits. Along with prior 1099-R's. If they accept it. I will know it will work for the following years. If not then I'll submit the letter from the embassy so I get it next year. Then I will have to come up with a plan after that.

 

Good plan...go for it....it's what I would do if my retirement extension of stay was coming due (I do mine in Aug/Sep of each year).  I would do the press-to-test to see what happens.  A person can't really know until he does an actual test.

 

That's exactly what some folks should try "right now" as everyday there are "many" renewing they retirement/marriage extension of stays at immigration offices across Thailand.  Heck, each year when I go to Bangkok Immigration for my renewal there are always dozens of folks ahead and behind me in the long-term extension of stay queue.

 

Have the embassy letter in hand but do not initially include it in the application package you hand the immigration officer.  Just provide income supporting docs like you mentioned to see if the immigration officer will accept/approve the renewal application.  Of course whip-out the embassy income letter if the the immigration officer still requires the letter; otherwise, the application will be disapproved.  

 

Hopefully we will soon hear some feedback from people who have done the press-to-test....and I do expect to see those test results vary because "This Is Thailand" where implementation of immigration policies across immigration offices varies....many, many posts documenting such.

 

 

 

 

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, Pib said:

Hopefully we will soon hear some feedback from people who have done the press-to-test....and I do expect to see those test results vary because "This Is Thailand" where implementation of immigration policies across immigration offices varies....many, many posts documenting suc

Exactly what I'll be doing in May 2019- but  by then we will probably have many posts  regarding what was accepted and not and where it happened -location of Imm office.

[Pib]

27 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

What letter from the Bangkok Bank?  What is POC?

 

Posted in this thread and related threads....for example an earlier post in this thread.

 

[Bangkok Basha]

The thing is, the U.S. embassy has never offered a letter verifying your income. They simply notarize an affidavit that you have stated, in their presence, that your monthly income is so-and-so. When I first arrived here, I tried to have them notarize a form from Bangkok Bank and/or a letter my U.S. bank, but they declined, saying that they had no way of verifying the accuracy (or truth) of the letter. They would only use their own affidavit form notarizing only my own statement. So the embassy has not been abusing anything. The burden is on the applicant for stating the truth. The Thai authorities have simply overlooked this technicality for decades, and apparently only recently decided that actual proof would be required. Since the embassy has neither the manpower or the resources to verify income statements, they will no longer be notarizing affidavits. Either you transfer THB 65,000 into Thailand, or deposit THB 800,000 in a fixed account. Pretty simple, really.

 

[marcusarelus]

5 minutes ago, Bangkok Basha said:

The thing is, the U.S. embassy has never offered a letter verifying your income. They simply notarize an affidavit that you have stated, in their presence, that your monthly income is so-and-so. When I first arrived here, I tried to have them notarize a form from Bangkok Bank and/or a letter my U.S. bank, but they declined, saying that they had no way of verifying the accuracy (or truth) of the letter. They would only use their own affidavit form notarizing only my own statement. So the embassy has not been abusing anything. The burden is on the applicant for stating the truth. The Thai authorities have simply overlooked this technicality for decades, and apparently only recently decided that actual proof would be required. Since the embassy has neither the manpower or the resources to verify income statements, they will no longer be notarizing affidavits. Either you transfer THB 65,000 into Thailand, or deposit THB 800,000 in a fixed account. Pretty simple, really.

 

Since Thai Immigration still wants a letter the transfer method won't work so I guess you mean deposit 800,000 baht.

[JLCrab]

12 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Since Thai Immigration still wants a letter the transfer method won't work so I guess you mean deposit 800,000 baht.

Well presuming all goes well with my next retirement extension due before the end of the 2018 year, the only thing I know for certain for the following year is that it will be easier for me to get my hands on roughly US$15,000 for a 5-year Elite Visa than to get my hands on roughly US$25,000 for an 800K baht in-the-bank retirement extension.

 

If the Elite route, then I'll have 5 years to decide what to do next.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Well presuming all goes well with my next retirement extension due before the end of the 2018 year, the only thing I know for certain for the following year is that it will be easier for me to get my hands on roughly US$15,000 for a 5-year Elite Visa than to get my hands on roughly US$25,000 for an 800K baht in-the-bank retirement extension.

 

If the Elite route, then I'll have 5 years to decide what to do next.

Does anyone know how much lead time you need to get that 5 year "Elite" thing? For example if a retirogrant is heading towards their next extension and doesn't think she can swing it, how fast can you get that baby in your hands to avoid being booted out?

[Wake Up]

17 hours ago, ukrules said:

I have a 5 year Thai license in my wallet which is sitting in front of me as I type this.

 

I also have a Thai Elite visa. I got the license while using the TE visa.

Thank you. I was given the wrong information.  My apologies. 

[JLCrab]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Does anyone know how much lead time you need to get that 5 year "Elite" thing?

From the website FAQ it says the application process could take from 20 working days to 3 months.

https://www.thailandelite.com/faqs

[marcusarelus]

28 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Well presuming all goes well with my next retirement extension due before the end of the 2018 year, the only thing I know for certain for the following year is that it will be easier for me to get my hands on roughly US$15,000 for a 5-year Elite Visa than to get my hands on roughly US$25,000 for an 800K baht in-the-bank retirement extension.

 

If the Elite route, then I'll have 5 years to decide what to do next.

Do you get the $15,000 back like you can get the $25,000 at any time?  Seems obvious which is the rational choice.