Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[jmd8800]

37 minutes ago, garyk said:

Hey Dave, I lived in Merida, for a few months. San Miguel de Allende. Safe as Thailand for sure. 

If you like arty people San Miguel de Allende. Depends on what you like I guess. Mexico is a big place.

Lived in Colombia for 3 months last year, Botota(not that safe IMO) but so clean, wow. Cali( not my cup of tea). Loved the coffee region.

 

Yea I like the US also,  I like adventure travel. I am a birder, and like chasing critters. 

Personally I will never break my ties with America. If money ever becomes an issue, it is America for me 100%.

 

Regards

I have run into several people who for lack of a better term do a circuit. They don't stay in one place too long and seem to enjoy that lifestyle. They have their contacts in several places around the world and they just go visit. While there are + and  - to this.... it is not for everyone.

 

I can qualify for the yearly extensions but honestly this idea of seeing more of the world excites me. I can do both. Or I can swing by LA where I am from and get METV or new non imm- O-A. It is not either/ or and so many people on TFV want to frame it.

 

I'm just waiting to see how this unfolds and that will tell me what my approach will be.

 

How did you get from Mexico City airport to San Miguel? I've been thinking of visiting there. PM is acceptable as this thread is for Income Affidavits.

[Jingthing]

 
Well they answered my emails and I got my non-o same day.
 
Went from LAX to the post office for a money order and on to the consulate to drop off the application. Dropped it off at 10:00, picked it up at 3:00.
 
 
EDIT: DC answers emails as well, I was going to try to use Atlanta (I was in TN) but Atlanta off was temporarily closed.

Atlanta has never done O-A visas anyway to my knowledge.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

15 hours ago, Pib said:

The US Embassy has no capability to check with the govt agencies that pay pensions such as the SSA, DFAS, etc....or financial companies that pay pensions/make payments....nor to check with the IRS to see what a person's tax return says.  I don't know why people want to think such....it's not like in the movies/TV shows where they pull up info even showing your underwear size in a few seconds.   And I'm sure the embassy has no one on staff which can tell whether an income doc is fake or real just by looking at it.

 

I think what you say above is true Pib. It's not like the Embassy has a magic computer that they can log into and check on one's Social Security payments or military pension payments (at least as far as I know!) 

 

However, for my government pension, I get a mailed monthly payment statement issued by my government pension provider, and I'm assuming there are similar official benefit statements for things like Social Security and military pensions.  At least for government-provided pensions/benefit type things, I don't think the Embassy staff would have too hard a time dealing with ORIGINAL documents from those kinds of sources. IMHO, they ought to at least be able to verify those kinds of docs as being legit, especially if provided originals as opposed to photocopies or online printouts.

 

But, at this point, that issue/subject is probably water under the bridge...

 

[OJAS]

16 hours ago, 4myr said:

I will explain how the Dutch embassy works related to this topic. The embassy provides a so-called "visa support letter", they changed their fraught-prone system in 2017.

 

For a fee of 50 euro (57 USD) they check your income related documents as provided by authorised sources like banks, employer or pension provider and tax department in NL.

 

From the embassy's website:

 

"In the new situation (2017), the signature will no longer be legalized under a declaration of income drawn up by you, but the Dutch embassy will issue a so called "visa support letter" for the purpose of applying for a residence permit from the Thai authorities. In this letter, the embassy confirms that you declare to receive a monthly income from the Netherlands and that the amount stated in the letter has been demonstrated by submission of supporting documents."

 

You supply the embassy with copies of documents like bank statements, pension or salary statements, tax return statements stating your gross and net annual income. Then they provide you with the following letter:

 

"To: Immigration Office

The Ambassador of the Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in Bangkok herewith confirms: <Name: ..., Date of birth:..., etc>

 

has declared to have residence <residence Thailand> and to receive a monthly income of <amount in euro> as has been documented by him/her through (electronic) banking statements/official pension statements from the Netherlands/statement Tax Department from the Netherlands.

 

The Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands would be grateful for any assistance you can provide to Mr <XXX> in order to obtain his/her visa/residence permit.

 

For the Ambassador,

<signature>

Deputy Head of Consular and Internal Affairs"

 

Sofar no news of change of plans by the embassy published on their website. It is maybe fortunate that they changed their fraught-prone system in 2017 already. Hope it stays like this. 

 

But does checking "your income related documents as provided by authorised sources like banks, employer or pension provider and tax department in NL" actually mean that the Dutch Embassy are themselves verifying the amounts stated in submitted income-related documents with the relevant authorised sources?

 

If "yes" it could mean that one embassy at least is able to comply with the IB's verification requirements - in which case any attempts on the part of the American, Australian and British embassies to agree with the IB any alternative method of verifying monthly income for their nationals based on transfers into Thai bank accounts could be undermined.

 

But if "no", though, it would appear that we are, in the case of the the Dutch Embassy, talking about an income confirmation method which is basically akin to the one adopted by their British counterparts which they have claimed does not satisfy IB verification requirements.

[fforest1]

3 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

I have run into several people who for lack of a better term do a circuit. They don't stay in one place too long and seem to enjoy that lifestyle. They have their contacts in several places around the world and they just go visit. While there are + and  - to this.... it is not for everyone.

 

I can qualify for the yearly extensions but honestly this idea of seeing more of the world excites me. I can do both. Or I can swing by LA where I am from and get METV or new non imm- O-A. It is not either/ or and so many people on TFV want to frame it.

 

I'm just waiting to see how this unfolds and that will tell me what my approach will be.

 

How did you get from Mexico City airport to San Miguel? I've been thinking of visiting there.

Thats great but the METV is useless for expat retirees (plus its intentionally a real pain in the ass....)

And the O-A is also a seriously inconvenient visa for 

expat retirees .....

[mogandave]

Hey Dave, I lived in Merida, for a few months. San Miguel de Allende. Safe as Thailand for sure. 
If you like arty people San Miguel de Allende. Depends on what you like I guess. Mexico is a big place.
Lived in Colombia for 3 months last year, Botota(not that safe IMO) but so clean, wow. Cali( not my cup of tea). Loved the coffee region.
 
Yea I like the US also,  I like adventure travel. I am a birder, and like chasing critters. 
Personally I will never break my ties with America. If money ever becomes an issue, it is America for me 100%.
 
Regards

Spent a couple months in Chattanooga TN this year, great place, great people, good food, booming economy and plenty of work...

[mogandave]

Atlanta has never done O-A visas anyway to my knowledge.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

I only wanted an O.

Just started the visa thing, up until now I’ve been on a work permit and the staff always handled it. I’ll do the 400k thing next September.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

17 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Yes, driving or walking down to the bank to use my no-fees ATM, drawing out cash and then going inside (between 10:00 & 6:00, M-F) to fill out a form and redeposit the cash into your Thai account sounds much more convenient then spending less than a minute on my phone any time, anywhere in the world.

 

 

There's also the difference of FEES.

 

With a no fee/fee reimbursing ATM card from your home country bank (for those folks who have one), you can withdraw money from a Thai bank ATM and get the full exchange rate and have no fees either on the sending or receiving end.

 

But when it comes to a international wire transfer, for most folks, they're going to be paying fees to send the wire and then additional fees by the receiving Thai bank. And if done monthly, you can multiply those times 12 every year.

 

By using Thai ATMs and my home country debit card instead of international fund transfers, I'm probably saving a couple hundred dollars per year.  In all my years here, I've NEVER used international fund transfers to fund my monthly living expenses.

 

I'm bringing income/money into Thailand every month just the same as someone doing an international bank transfer. But unfortunately, it would appear, perhaps, that Immigration may well end up deciding to accept one form of that funds transfer and not accept the other equally valid and documentable form.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

Good luck getting LA to even open up your emails, no less respond.  They appear to have only one person handling Visa's there since he complains he is too busy with walk ins to process mail applications

 

Several years ago I did get DC to accept a medical certificate from BNH  since it was only two weeks old, but was told in the future it must be from a doctor in your home country, as it states in the instructions and on the form

 

There is, of course, an American MD with both Thai and U.S. medical licenses at Mission Hospital in BKK, a very good doc and nice guy, by the way.

 

But whether a med certif from him would be acceptable to the Thai Embassy and Consulates in the U.S., that I don't know. He's FROM our home country, but not IN our home country! 

 

I guess I should ask him next time I'm out to Mission whether he's ever done medical certifs for Thai Embassy/Consulate visa applications by American expats. Unless anyone here already has knowledge on that point?

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

33 minutes ago, OJAS said:

But if "no", though, it would appear that we are, in the case of the the Dutch Embassy, talking about an income confirmation method which is basically akin to the one adopted by their British counterparts which they have claimed does not satisfy IB verification requirements.

 

That's the way I read the prior poster's description. The Dutch method sounds very similar if not identical to what the British Embassy was doing -- requiring submission of supporting documents and then reviewing the documents submitted, period.

 

It's not like either the British Embassy nor the Dutch one is calling up the bank company for each and every applicant and trying to check their transaction history -- which they wouldn't be told even if they tried making such a call, of course.

 

It's going to be very interesting to see whether Thai Immigration basically just stops accepting Embassy income letters, period, as there's been some suggestion they will. Or if we end up with a double standard situation where TI has basically forced certain Embassies out of the letters business, but then allows other Embassies doing basically the same exact thing to continue issuing accepted income letters.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

Good luck getting LA to even open up your emails, no less respond.  They appear to have only one person handling Visa's there since he complains he is too busy with walk ins to process mail applications

 

 

I was chatting with member SpokaneAl the other day, and he indicated he's been doing mailed visa submissions to the L.A. Consulate for a long time, and said they've been handled efficiently. I believe he indicated he was getting about a two week turnaround time from mailing the application in the U.S. to getting his package back by mail from the Los Angeles Consulate.  Of course, it's much faster if you do a walk-in application, but not so easy if you don't live/aren't staying in the L.A. area.

 

[JLCrab]

But Spokane is within the official geographic designation for the LA consulate. For Florida it is Washington DC Embassy.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, Pib said:

I'm sure some will say, "Well, I go back to the States every year anyway" trying to rationalize use of the half way around the world border run method, but for folks who infrequently return to the States or don't plan to ever return such a method probably rates a minus 1 on a scale from 1 to 10.

 

True, but as you said, if you're someone who goes back to the U.S. anyway for other reasons once or twice a year, then it becomes a whole lot less onerous. In my case, I have the option of a marriage extension bank deposit for 400K.

 

But, given what I think of Thai banks, if it came down to the 800K deposit for a retirement extension vs. an O-A from the U.S. and taking some time out of my trip there to handle those details, I'd definitely be going the O-A route, and really, it would only end up being about once every two years if handled properly.

 

It also helps, of course, if one is going to be hanging out anyway in reasonable proximity to one of the Thai Embassy/Consulate locations, as opposed to having to wait for the mailed app turnaround or make flight/hotel reservations for a distant city trip.

 

 

[Pib]

And talking about some confused guidance (IMO) just take a look at below post where the  Phuket IO gave some feedback on the current situation for "UK/US/AU" folks using the income letter method which will be accepted for 6 months but only if the person has supporting document showing he has a "Government" pension but a military pension is not acceptable although a military, social security, civil service, VA, etc., are all "government" pensions....all paid by Uncle Sam.

 

But beyond what they consider a government pension they are also basically saying a "civilian" pension like from company XYZ/distributions from your 401K would not qualify because they will only accept a certain kind of "government" pension.   

 

Keep in mind below response was from "Phuket" IO which is well known for implementing extension requirements differently...being a pain.

 

 

[mogandave]

 

There's also the difference of FEES.

 

With a no fee/fee reimbursing ATM card from your home country bank (for those folks who have one), you can withdraw money from a Thai bank ATM and get the full exchange rate and have no fees either on the sending or receiving end.

 

But when it comes to a international wire transfer, for most folks, they're going to be paying fees to send the wire and then additional fees by the receiving Thai bank. And if done monthly, you can multiply those times 12 every year.

 

By using Thai ATMs and my home country debit card instead of international fund transfers, I'm probably saving a couple hundred dollars per year.  In all my years here, I've NEVER used international fund transfers to fund my monthly living expenses.

 

I'm bringing income/money into Thailand every month just the same as someone doing an international bank transfer. But unfortunately, it would appear, perhaps, that Immigration may well end up deciding to accept one form of that funds transfer and not accept the other equally valid and documentable form.

 

Up until recently I’ve never needed to import funds as I always worked. For the little cash I need I use the TransferWise app.

 

The issue is that in the event (and we have no way of knowing yet) you need to show your Thai account passbook and corresponding certification letter showing that the the money is coming in from outside Thailand, the ATM route will not work. (nor will TransferWise)

 

If the money can come from anywhere than either will work.

 

Get a cash-back credit card and you can save a couple hundred a year more than you do with the just the ATM card.

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

nyway, will be interesting to see if the Swiss system stands. And if so, will the embassies of the world's finest English speaking nations backtrack, and adopt the Swiss system....... Hmmmm.

If the goal is proof of income- all any Embassy really needs- is the source document-pension letter etc; then backed up with a bank statement showing the same amount going into an account around the same dates each month.  In the US/UK because of Data Protection and Privacy Acts there is no 100% way to verify anything from the source. It is almost impossible to verify one is employed.  That is why loan companies/mortgage companies ask for  several sources- Employment letter; pay slips; bank statements; Credit cards/etc. At the end of the day- if you don't pay- you lose your house or car.

Thai Imm if asking for 100% verification must know that it is impossible and any system they can come up with proves little to nothing except  you either have a certain amount of money or don't-  it doesn't prove you have an income stream that will support  the requirements.  The Embassy letters is the best thing they had going because  many embassies did look at statements of proof while others made their citizens take an Oath which carries a criminal penalty. Thai Imm at any point could easily ask the 65K person or the 800K person to prove income- not every person- but a random sample. If they found a discrepancy they could not issue the visa and report the person to their Embassy.

Whatever they decide =they decide  but it won't have a thing to do with being able to prove one has the income- only the money

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

34 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Anyway, will be interesting to see if the Swiss system stands. And if so, will the embassies of the world's finest English speaking nations backtrack, and adopt the Swiss system....... Hmmmm.

 

My monthly government pension benefit statement has no stamp or seal on it, but it would be pretty hard to forge. Likewise, the Social Security benefit letters / statements I've seen (originals, not photocopies) likewise would seem similar.

 

Finding some 100%/absolute method of PROOF is a pretty difficult thing. Even with Thai bank deposits showing international transfers, if someone was determined, there are ways to recycle those funds.

 

For me, requiring the submission of original (not photocopy or home printed) pension and other income documents to be reviewed by Embassy staff would have been reasonable proof. But obviously, the U.S. Embassy folks apparently had no desire to get into the business of looking at/reviewing such things.

 

 

[sqwakvfr]

Just got this.  Maybe related to current events?:

The Consular Section of the U.S. Consulate General in Chiang Mai invites U.S. citizens to attend a town hall meeting with Consul General Jennifer Harhigh and Country Consular Coordinator Timothy Scherer.  To participate, please be seated at 2:30 p.m. for introductory remarks and an update on consular services available to U.S. citizens.  Topics will include the previously announced change in policy regarding the income affidavit, which the U.S. Embassy Bangkok and U.S. Consulate General Chiang Mai will no longer provide beginning January 1, 2019. The Consul General will also conduct a question-and-answer session.  100 seats will be available on a first-come first-served basis.

 

Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018

Time: 2:30 p.m. to 3:30 p.m.

Venue: Faikham Room, Uniserv Chiang Mai University

Address: 239 Nimmanahaeminda Road, Tambon Su Thep, Amphoe Mueang Chiang Mai, Chang Wat Chiang Mai 50200, Thailand

Venue Phone: (66) 53 942 883

[wwest5829]

 

The Consular Section of the U.S. Consulate General in Chiang Mai invites U.S. citizens to attend a town hall meeting with Consul General Jennifer Harhigh and Country Consular Coordinator Timothy Scherer.  To participate, please be seated at 2:30 p.m. for introductory remarks and an update on consular services available to U.S. citizens.  Topics will include the previously announced change in policy regarding the income affidavit, which the U.S. Embassy Bangkok and U.S. Consulate General Chiang Mai will no longer provide beginning January 1, 2019.  The Consul General will also conduct a question-and-answer session.  100 seats will be available on a first-come first-served basis.

 

Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018

Time: 2:30 p.m. to 3:30 p.m.

Venue: Faikham Room, Uniserv Chiang Mai University

Address: 239 Nimmanahaeminda Road, Tambon Su Thep, Amphoe Mueang Chiang Mai, Chang Wat Chiang Mai 50200, Thailand

Venue Phone: (66) 53 942 883

 

If you have any questions about this event please send your inquiry to [email protected]. 

 

For general information on U.S. Citizen Services please see http://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

21 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

Just got this.  Maybe related to current events?:

The Consular Section of the U.S. Consulate General in Chiang Mai invites U.S. citizens to attend a town hall meeting with Consul General Jennifer Harhigh and Country Consular Coordinator Timothy Scherer.  To participate, please be seated at 2:30 p.m. for introductory remarks and an update on consular services available to U.S. citizens.  Topics will include the previously announced change in policy regarding the income affidavit, which the U.S. Embassy Bangkok and U.S. Consulate General Chiang Mai will no longer provide beginning January 1, 2019. The Consul General will also conduct a question-and-answer session.  100 seats will be available on a first-come first-served basis.

 

Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018

Time: 2:30 p.m. to 3:30 p.m.

Venue: Faikham Room, Uniserv Chiang Mai University

Address: 239 Nimmanahaeminda Road, Tambon Su Thep, Amphoe Mueang Chiang Mai, Chang Wat Chiang Mai 50200, Thailand

Venue Phone: (66) 53 942 883

 

For anyone going to that, here's one question that I think deserves to be asked of them:

 

Since the Embassy announced the change and said Thai bank transfers would be allowed as a way of documenting monthly income, Thai Immigration has not made any public statement to confirm that notion, nor have they posted anything to any of their websites to confirm that notion.

 

Can the Embassy staff please liaise with Thai Immigration and encourage them to come out publicly and spell out the details publicly of just what kind of alternate methods of showing monthly income are going to be accepted for the future?  Because right now, there's NOTHING!

 

The U.S. Embassy giving that guidance to its citizens here means nothing if all the MANY Thai Immigration offices around the country don't have clear directions from Immigration headquarters on what the rules will be.

 

 

[jmd8800]

Only 100 seats?? Line sitters anyone?

 

Just kidding

[thonglorjimmy]

4 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

The Consular Section of the U.S. Consulate General in Chiang Mai invites U.S. citizens to attend a town hall meeting with Consul General Jennifer Harhigh and Country Consular Coordinator Timothy Scherer.  

The Consul General will also conduct a question-and-answer session.  

Topics will include the previously announced change in policy regarding the income affidavit, which the U.S. Embassy Bangkok and U.S. Consulate General Chiang Mai will no longer provide

I look forward to a similar initiative from the British and Australian Consular Teams ????

[JLCrab]

22 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Quote

Will they accept as proof of income my monthly royalty statement from my share of interest in a sapphire mine on Madagascar?

Huh?

Well why not? It will have the wax seal of the Ministry of the Interior and Madagascar now has the world's largest proven sapphire mines should be good longer than the income from some looted corporate pensions or someone's Thai guest house income.

[mogandave]

 
My monthly government pension benefit statement has no stamp or seal on it, but it would be pretty hard to forge. Likewise, the Social Security benefit letters / statements I've seen (originals, not photocopies) likewise would seem similar.
 
Finding some 100%/absolute method of PROOF is a pretty difficult thing. Even with Thai bank deposits showing international transfers, if someone was determined, there are ways to recycle those funds.
 
For me, requiring the submission of original (not photocopy or home printed) pension and other income documents to be reviewed by Embassy staff would have been reasonable proof. But obviously, the U.S. Embassy folks apparently had no desire to get into the business of looking at/reviewing such things.
 
 

And I think most people would be much more hesitant to provide falsified income documentation and swear to the accuracy than they would be filling in a blank and swearing to it.

In any event, as the Consulate cannot actually substantiate the documents, they cannot certify the accuracy.

[Pib]

4 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

Only 100 seats?? Line sitters anyone?

 

Just kidding

They figure security will only be able to hold back 100 angry attendees max.

[fforest1]

8 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Why are you so hung up on proving income vs. proving money sent to Thailand? The Thais are saying "show me the money," not "show me your income statements that show how much money comes monthly/annually into your offshore bank account." If you were a Thai, wouldn't you rather see money with a track record (e.g., transferred in for a certain period) vs. seeing some official (looking) paperwork?

Rhetorical question, for most.

The way I see it if you can pay your rent support yourself and are not living in the street....You just passed income verification with flying colors...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, Pib said:

They figure security will only be able to hold back 100 angry attendees max.

FIGHT THE POWER!!!! 

[thonglorjimmy]

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Can the Embassy staff please liaise with Thai Immigration and encourage them to come out publicly and spell out the details publicly of just what kind of alternate methods of showing monthly income are going to be accepted for the future?  Because right now, there's NOTHING!

And maybe go a stage further and ask to team to push for some continuity so that all offices/officers use the same, maybe even correct, rules

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

No similar Town Hall meeting by the U.S. BKK Embassy for BKK area expat????  Hmmm......

 

 

[jmd8800]

9 minutes ago, Pib said:

They figure security will only be able to hold back 100 angry attendees max.

Right ...... The over 50 crowd can be a pretty determined bunch!! ????