Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[mogandave]

Bring SS letters and bank book to the American Embassy.  My bank today, BANGKOKBANK: SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTR has transferred THB xxxxxxxxx (usdxxxxxxxxxxx) FROM ABROAD INTO account number XXXXXXXX

How is that checking them?

They have experts on hand to confirm the authenticity of documents?

I thought not.

[JackThompson]

13 hours ago, elviajero said:

Never one to miss a conspiracy theory, Jack!

 

Or in the real world the number of applicants are increasing; therefore the number of fraudulent applicants is increasing - meaning the TIB want confirmed verification of income rather than a worthless pieces of paper that proves nothing. It's just another loophole that some people have taken advantage of that is possibly being closed.

A piece of paper is not worthless if a person is putting their future on the line by signing it.  This has been standard practice in many parts of the world since the Roman Republic.  To the extent that lying on StatDecs was not a risk in this context is entirely the fault of immigration, if they failed to report cases of perjury to passport-country authorities.  Just a few publicized cases would have fixed this problem, to the extent it was a widespread problem to begin with (debatable).

 

Your "Loophole Theory" assumes those writing rules and setting policies are unable to fathom the easily-predictable results.  I think it is far more likely that those who wrote the rules liked the aspects of the rules you are calling "loopholes," but some current faction does not.  My theory relies on what has historically occurred when immigration carries out "crackdowns" - which is to use these as leverage to drive up agent-money streams. 

 

The effect of this change will undoubtedly drive up demand for agent-services, and I think it naive to assume this was lost on those pushing for the change.  I am always very skeptical of "public relations" politician-speak, when resulting financial-incentives are almost always the actual driver of policy (world-wide). 

 

If there were a mass-uprising of Thais to foreigners spending money here, then that might be an exception - an actual "populist" policy change.  But, in this case, immigration is implementing policies that buck popular opinion and undermine the common-good of (economic benefit to) the citizenry - though attempts to tilt public opinion against us via media-propaganda highlighting every "bad farang" behavior/action, etc do continue and are worrisome.

Edited January 3, 2019 by JackThompson

[dick dasterdly]

11 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

My understanding was that the Thai government wanted the letter to serve as the US government’s verification of income. As that was clearly not what it was, they decided to discontinue providing the letters.

You think it was because they are lazy. While I don’t doubt their laziness, I would be very surprised if it had anything to do with this.

 

A few Western embassies have decided to stop issuing 'proof of income letters' - mostly the largest Western embassies, or those with the largest number of 'expats' here in Thailand?

 

It's possible of course, that they're just using their citizens here to make a point about some of the OTT demands occasionally demanded by Thailand - but it doesn't really matter, as they've made it very clear that they don't care about their citizens here, and are quite happy to throw them 'under the bus' for one reason or another ☹️.

 

 

[marcusarelus]

12 minutes ago, mogandave said:

How is that checking them?

They have experts on hand to confirm the authenticity of documents?

I thought not.

The bank can verify date, amount and where it came from.  Easy for the bank to confirm details in writing to the embassy.  The banks are verifying amount now, easy to add a date and sender.  Since immigration is accepting bank letter as verification why not embassy?

[marcusarelus]

39 minutes ago, mogandave said:

My understanding was that the Thai government wanted the letter to serve as the US government’s verification of income. As that was clearly not what it was, they decided to discontinue providing the letters.

You think it was because they are lazy. While I don’t doubt their laziness, I would be very surprised if it had anything to do with this.

If you have any proof or statement from the Thai government as to what they wanted - feel free to link it. 

 

I thought not. 

[JLCrab]

18 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

My theory relies on

Agents 'Я' Us -- so what else is new?

[farangx]

2 hours ago, zydeco said:

What legal implications? Thailand is going to sue the US government because a few odd Americans living in Thailand under Thai law lied on a US embassy notarized document saying the person claimed to have the money?

That the embassy lied.

[mogandave]

The bank can verify date, amount and where it came from.  Easy for the bank to confirm details in writing to the embassy.  The banks are verifying amount now, easy to add a date and sender.  Since immigration is accepting bank letter as verification why not embassy?

Immigration already accepts bank letters, so the embassy would not have to.

How will the bank verify the US social security letter?

[mogandave]

If you have any proof or statement from the Thai government as to what they wanted - feel free to link it. 
 
I thought not. 

I’ll take that as you conceding the embassy current has no easy way of ascertaining the authenticity of social security letters.

[zydeco]

17 minutes ago, farangx said:

That the embassy lied.

You apparently have never done one of the income letters. No where on it does the embassy lie. What is says is . . . oh, why bother. Completely clueless.

[jmd8800]

2 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Social security sends out letters every year as to how much social security a person receives (easy to check) Social security direct deposits in Thai banks monthly with notes as to where it came from, when and how the exchange rate - easy to check.  It is too easy to do.  Social security sends out a proof of life form every year - easy to check. 

IF the Thai government accepts deposits into a Thai bank account from abroad as proof .. at present there is nothing saying that they do. We'll have to wait and see what unfolds.

 

As for SS letters and proof of life ... easy to forge. Try buying a house in the USA without following legal procedures such as title searches etc. There are laws in place that determine how things are to be verified. This is not a simple matter. Personal income information is highly protected in the USA and you cannot just say yes I will let you have it. Even lawyers representing clients in IRS tax cases must follow legal procedures to gain access to their clients income / tax accounts.

 

As Paul Simon wrote in The Boxer: Still, a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.

[marcusarelus]

48 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Immigration already accepts bank letters, so the embassy would not have to.

How will the bank verify the US social security letter?

Bank gets deposits from Social Security.  Embassy can verify US Social Security letter by looking at it.  Have you never gotten one? 

[marcusarelus]

20 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

IF the Thai government accepts deposits into a Thai bank account from abroad as proof .. at present there is nothing saying that they do. We'll have to wait and see what unfolds.

 

As for SS letters and proof of life ... easy to forge. Try buying a house in the USA without following legal procedures such as title searches etc. There are laws in place that determine how things are to be verified. This is not a simple matter. Personal income information is highly protected in the USA and you cannot just say yes I will let you have it. Even lawyers representing clients in IRS tax cases must follow legal procedures to gain access to their clients income / tax accounts.

 

As Paul Simon wrote in The Boxer: Still, a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.

Thai government accepts bank letter as proof of deposit now.  I can get a credit check in a minute on line which checks my income .  Why do you think that is difficult? 

[mogandave]

Bank gets deposits from Social Security.  Embassy can verify US Social Security letter by looking at it.  Have you never gotten one? 

No, I’m not on SS, but I get letters from them every year and know the letters can be easily falsified.

In any event, it still does not address the primary issue for a large percentage of people previously using the affidavit method.

A lot of people do not get enough from SS to qualify, and even a wealthy guy like you, may not receive enough in SS alone to satisfy the ฿65,000 a month requirement.

You could suggest using a tax return as a way of showing additional income, but that would still have to be verified by the embassy.

[mogandave]

Thai government accepts bank letter as proof of deposit now.  I can get a credit check in a minute on line which checks my income .  Why do you think that is difficult? 

Obtaining the information is easy, having the government verify it is the hard part.

Why is that so confusing?

[jmd8800]

21 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Thai government accepts bank letter as proof of deposit now.  I can get a credit check in a minute on line which checks my income .  Why do you think that is difficult? 

Yes proof of deposit. 800,000 THB in a Thai bank account seasoned. Nothing has been said about Thai Imm accepting monthly bank deposits (foreign or domestic) as proof of income.

 

Why do you always end your posts with a snide remark personal remark? I know why I do when I reply to your posts.

 

Thought for the day: Some people will be very surprised when scientists discover the center of the universe and it is not them.

[marcusarelus]

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Obtaining the information is easy, having the government verify it is the hard part.

Why is that so confusing?

Thai bank can verify deposits.  A credit check is verified.  Banks loan you money as a result of a credit check - can't get much more accurate than that.

 

Why is that so confusing?

[marcusarelus]

9 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

Yes proof of deposit. 800,000 THB in a Thai bank account seasoned. Nothing has been said about Thai Imm accepting monthly bank deposits (foreign or domestic) as proof of income.

 

Why do you always end your posts with a snide remark personal remark? I know why I do when I reply to your posts.

 

Thought for the day: Some people will be very surprised when scientists discover the center of the universe and it is not them.

You wrote, "This is not a simple matter. Personal income information is highly protected in the USA and you cannot just say yes I will let you have it."  That is not correct.  What leads you to believe that it is difficult for a bank to get your financial information?

 

One of the ways you can get a copy of your free credit report is by visiting www.annualcreditreport.com . By law, you are allowed to get one free copy of your credit report every 12 months from each of the three major credit bureaus -- Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion

Edited January 3, 2019 by marcusarelus

[JLCrab]

So now after almost 200 pages this topic has morphed into a discussion among the ThaiVisa hoi polloi as to what Thai IMM should be willing to do. Great. I'm sure Thai IMM would be delighted in knowing what they should be willing to do.

Edited January 3, 2019 by JLCrab

[mogandave]

Thai bank can verify deposits.  A credit check is verified.  Banks loan you money as a result of a credit check - can't get much more accurate than that.
 
Why is that so confusing?

I’m confused about what you see the embassy’s part would be.

But you know that and are just being intellectually dishonest.

Typical

[jmd8800]

9 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

You wrote, "This is not a simple matter. Personal income information is highly protected in the USA and you cannot just say yes I will let you have it."  That is not correct.  What leads you to believe that it is difficult for a bank to get your financial information?

 

One of the ways you can get a copy of your free credit report is by visiting www.annualcreditreport.com . By law, you are allowed to get one free copy of your credit report every 12 months from each of the three major credit bureaus -- Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion

This is not about banks and credit reports.

 

There isn't much sense in continuing a conversation with you. You are all over the place with conjecture.

 

 

[jmd8800]

Since some people feel it should be OK to take a printout of a SS letter or any document really to the Embassy / Consulate and have them verify it, I decided I would see how long it takes me to forge a pdf document that I saved from my online SS account. I have not done this before. I do not have any special office skills but I am pretty knowledgeable about computers in general. I did this in Linux.

 

Total time it took including searching Duckduckgo to find the tools:  10 minutes.

 

I did it with already installed software that comes with most Linux distributions but is also available for Windows and Apple.

[marcusarelus]

16 minutes ago, mogandave said:

I’m confused about what you see the embassy’s part would be.

But you know that and are just being intellectually dishonest.

Typical

The embassy can write the income letters the same as it has for years.  If it wants to really check the income that would not be difficult either and they could fund it by charging the person who wanted the income letter.  The reason the embassy stopped doing it is because they are lazy.  

 

Typical.   

[mogandave]

The embassy can write the income letters the same as it has for years.  If it wants to really check the income that would not be difficult either and they could fund it by charging the person who wanted the income letter.  The reason the embassy stopped doing it is because they are lazy.  
 
Typical.   

Wanna Cracker?

[JLCrab]

18 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

The embassy can write the income letters

Per what the US Embassy - Bangkok do on income affidavits for extension of stay in Thailand:

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by JLCrab

[garyk]

29 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

The embassy can write the income letters the same as it has for years.  If it wants to really check the income that would not be difficult either and they could fund it by charging the person who wanted the income letter.  The reason the embassy stopped doing it is because they are lazy.  

 

Typical.   

I am looking into getting a visa for Colombia, and the process is almost identical to Thailand.

Visa agents, are everywhere by the way. Same as Thailand

 

Interesting is this:

The SSA Benefit Verification Letter is a federal document so the only place you could can get it authenticated was by the U.S. Department of State in Washington, D.C. But several expats have reported recently that the U.S. Department of State no longer will apostille a SSA Benefit Verification letter, since there is no signature and the SSA won’t sign it.

 

And Thailand is not a member of Hague Apostille. But interesting the Government has stopped the SS benefit verification. Personally I am not sure what to make of it?

 

Very interested to see what the changes will actually be.

Edited January 3, 2019 by garyk

[cleverman]

7 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

My friend at Immigration told me it should be this month.

 

My opinion is that it will be simplified.  Show 65,000 b ( or whatever amount they decide) going into a Thai Bank account every month, or the 800,000 b route.  I do not think they will make you verify where the 65,000 b is coming from as long as it is in going your Thai account.

 

No way can they have a verification of income table at immigration.

 

The people who cannot show the 65,000 have the option of nothing or going to an agent who I am sure will be able to manipulate an account to show the 65,000 as the do now for the 800,000.  With this, Immigration does not care and actually encourages this as it is big money for them.  They like agents for the money, 99% of the time their paperwork is in order,  and they do not have to hassle with farang verbal BS at the desks.

 

We will se soon should be interesting..

Your post is more guess work that has ever been posted before. Absolutely useless .

[cleverman]

33 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Wanna Cracker?

 

There are a lot of very bored people around with nothing else to do. 

[garyk]

7 minutes ago, cleverman said:

There are a lot of very bored people around with nothing else to do. 

Including me at the present time... Bored in Thailand is a killer.

I've spend a very active 10 years in Thailand with my hobby. Now I have sold off and given away everything to pursue my hobby elsewhere. I have never known boredom like this.  

Got one more letter from the embassy I will submit on around the 15th. Then I am out of here. 

Edited January 3, 2019 by garyk

[mogandave]

Including me at the present time... Bored in Thailand is a killer.
I've spend a very active 10 years in Thailand with my hobby. Now I have sold off and given away everything to pursue my hobby elsewhere. I have never known boredom like this.  
Got one more letter from the embassy I will submit on around the 15th. Then I am out of here. 

Go with God