Build a house on an island, but protect myself against rip-off - playing with situations and laws/rules

[Toosetinmyways]

4 hours ago, Badb0y said:

National park means cannot build on it?

There are still many construction works there. They have a gate where you have to pay the entry fee for the national park but have a huge amount of properties which are built I'm sure later then that time.

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From a property developers web site 4 years ago. Ignore the 99 year bit that is salesman talk

 

"The lease is 3+3 years up to 99 years. (32 renewals), the lease has to be like this to co-inside with Koh Samet's "Gom Tanarak title". This is the only way you can have a property on Koh Samet. There are no other charges incurred on the renewal signing of the lease and it is on the same terms and conditions. The entire island of Koh Samet is on the same lease title, the reason it is like this is because Koh Samet is government owned and it's their way of being able to control what is built on Koh Samet, i.e. they don't want the island to be spoiled by high rise hotels"

 

 

[ronaldo0]

Rent for 2-3 years and see if you still feel the same !

Things can change very quickly here in relationships , cost of living , rules by government etc . Due to mass building in certain places and exchange rate being poor a lot of places are for sale at low prices . Save until you see a bargain you like then check out how legit it all is etc then buy if you like it otherwise build your own with the hassle of doing so . 

[NCC1701A]

7 hours ago, Badb0y said:

So at the moment I'm in my thirties, I don't even have enough money to build a house but in the next 2-3 years based on my calculation I'm going to have.

you are too young to be gambling with real estate in Thailand. Invest in something else and build up your life savings.

 

it is easy to get caught up with wanting a house when you see all the nice houses here at a fraction of the cost of back home.

 

There is no rule of law, no code of ethics, no legal recourse. 

 

Every time a incredibly beautiful Thai woman walks up to me I think "If something is too good to be true, then it probably is." This thought has saved me from dozens of lady boys and a few real estate agents.   

[KittenKong]

7 hours ago, Badb0y said:

2. So like a dusit thani, holiday inn ... hotel chains owned by Thai companies? You mean they bought the franchise?

Generally Thai companies own the land and build the building. The big international hotel names then provide the management and marketing.

 

Sometimes the international chain will get involved with the property ownership also, as a joint venture, or will lease the building for 30 years. Thai hotel companies like Minor Corp and Dusit do this more often.

 

[Stevemercer]

Look at a larger island such as Kho Samui or Kho Chang (past Rayong). Kho Chang, in particular, is a large island serviced by a regular vehicular ferry only about 40 minutes from the mainland. There are many options for building a dream home, more services and fewer restrictions than smaller islands.

[Grusa]

7 hours ago, Toosetinmyways said:

Answered my own question from the National Parks website.

 

The Thai government restricted overnight stay on the island until 1981 (even though Bangkokians had known of the beauty of Ko Samet for decades). In that year, on 1 October, the Forestry Department of Thailand declared Ko Samet and environs to be a national park.[

If you can't afford to  build your house now, you are going to have to go some to be able to afford to build it soon. Because, to build on Koh Samet you are going to have to be able to pay off some very very rich and corrupt people!

[PerkinsCuthbert]

Not quite ripe for the picking yet, but when the time comes, they'll be queueing up.

[kannot]

Wasting your time with any laws I reckon, long drawn out procedures, inevitable corruption etc, find a  good  Thai you trust.

There are some about contrary to popular belief although illegal as  well I believe, I married mine 12  years ago and the selfish corrupt  cow is  still with me.

Dont invest all you have here for sure, I planned  to build a  whopping house and scaled that right back as even with a  good  partner  Thailand can  chuck you out at any time...........dont ever think it "wont happen"

[CharlieH]

Off topic posts removed.

[khunPer]

14 hours ago, Badb0y said:

2. How the big hotels can buy the complete lands even if the not Thai? The same rule true here as well, if you have money you can get exceptions .... ? Just an example in Phuket Amanpuri and The Surin super expensive hotels bought a complete mountain and even if nobody can be the owner of a beach anywhere, the mountain completely cover the beach so nobody can go there.

To my knowledge:

Big hotels can either partner up with Thais – or juristic Thais, i.e. a company – or operate via a franchise deal, or a combination of partnership and franchise; or the foreign hotel chain is a contract operator only for a Thai owned hotel construction.

Read more in this example: "Hotel franchise | Owning a Best Western"

However from 2009, a foreigner (read, mainly foreign hotel chain) might also own a hotel 100% if certain criteria are full filled; being an investment of 500 million baht, excluding costs of land and working capital; and the hotel shall be of minimum 100 rooms. 

Read more: "Thailand's New 100% Hotel Foreign Ownership Incentives"

 

Just like the 40 million baht personal invest might qualify for ownership of a limited size of land (i.e. 1600 m²), money also talks when investing in a hotel...????

 

And by the way, you can have fine quality building construction made in Thailand – I talk from experience – it's just a question of what you wish to spend per square meter; i.e. you can build a house for 10,000 baht or little less a square meter, or you can have a house made for 50,000+ baht a square meter; of course there should be a difference.

 

In general, there are several ways to "own" property if Thailand and protect your "ownership"; however rules might change over time, so what is Okay today, might change in the future. An experienced real estate lawyer will normally be able to advise you about your best options, and the risks.

 

Others have given good answers to your your many questions, so I will only add:

Based on my experience after staying almost 15-years here, you shall rent before you decide to buy anything, and you shall test various areas of interest, and in different seasons; and you shall never "invest" more than you can survive, without getting your investment back...????

[Badb0y]

8 hours ago, khunPer said:

However from 2009, a foreigner (read, mainly foreign hotel chain) might also own a hotel 100% if certain criteria are full filled; being an investment of 500 million baht, excluding costs of land and working capital; and the hotel shall be of minimum 100 rooms. 

Read more: "Thailand's New 100% Hotel Foreign Ownership Incentives"

 

Just like the 40 million baht personal invest might qualify for ownership of a limited size of land (i.e. 1600 m²), money also talks when investing in a hotel...????

This is far from me ???? omg

[Badb0y]

16 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

you are too young to be gambling with real estate in Thailand. Invest in something else and build up your life savings.

You know I don't want to gamble to be honest. I just want to leave BKK on the weekend and go somewhere which is mine ????

[DJ54]

Just thinking out loud wherever your from in EU has very good

high quality whacky tobacki..... just sayin

[Badb0y]

8 hours ago, khunPer said:

And by the way, you can have fine quality building construction made in Thailand – I talk from experience – it's just a question of what you wish to spend per square meter; i.e. you can build a house for 10,000 baht or little less a square meter, or you can have a house made for 50,000+ baht a square meter; of course there should be a difference.

Can you suggest some in private message? 50k I can't afford but would be curious to see some

[Badb0y]

15 hours ago, Stevemercer said:

Look at a larger island such as Kho Samui or Kho Chang (past Rayong). Kho Chang, in particular, is a large island serviced by a regular vehicular ferry only about 40 minutes from the mainland. There are many options for building a dream home, more services and fewer restrictions than smaller islands.

You live somewhere there?

[NCC1701A]

19 minutes ago, Badb0y said:

You know I don't want to gamble to be honest. I just want to leave BKK on the weekend and go somewhere which is mine ????

ok follow your dream. i wanted a sailboat when I was 35. let us know how things work out.

 

 

[xylophone]

22 hours ago, Badb0y said:

Yes I do, I work for a company here.

Good luck with getting Thai citizenship, because although it seems difficult and convoluted to do, from what I've read, it is doable, so in that case you should be able to own your own property, including the land (as I read it).

 

However as for the suggestion from KhunPer that, apart from citizenship, "in general, there are several ways to "own" property if Thailand and protect your "ownership"..............please be aware that you cannot own land legally in Thailand, although some people find ways around it which are not legal, so you can still stand to lose everything if the law is upheld as it should be.

 

Something to remember in your long-term plans.

 

[manchega]

if you can truly build yourself you will get what you want,

imagine a house where you build everything you will get mildew free, sensible building

but, there are real laws concerning buildings

while they are usually ignored 

for a foreigner the do not build within 1 km of a mountain

or in national parks

etc

will be remembered in a hurry

[Badb0y]

if you can truly build yourself you will get what you want,
imagine a house where you build everything you will get mildew free, sensible building
but, there are real laws concerning buildings
while they are usually ignored 
for a foreigner the do not build within 1 km of a mountain
or in national parks
etc
will be remembered in a hurry

Where these rules can be seen?

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, Badb0y said:

11 hours ago, khunPer said:

And by the way, you can have fine quality building construction made in Thailand – I talk from experience – it's just a question of what you wish to spend per square meter; i.e. you can build a house for 10,000 baht or little less a square meter, or you can have a house made for 50,000+ baht a square meter; of course there should be a difference.

Can you suggest some in private message? 50k I can't afford but would be curious to see some

I cannot suggest building construction companies, as they need to be found locally – there are several threads about bilding a house in Thailand in various areas, as well as in general terms – price per square meter mainly depend of chosen materials, including the specialist labor cost, for example expert labor for fine marble floors would be higher priced, than the costs of laying some cheap floor tiles.

 

I live at an island, Samui that is the second biggest Thai island. This island has multiple high end villas, as well as typical Thai low-budget constructions, and everything in between, so I've seen a variety of possibilities; also when when searching for a building constructor to my own house, as the constructors I was looking for used to build high-end luxury – in the 100k baht a sq.m. range – so I was shown numerous projects in various stages.

 

The basic cement work – i.e. foundation, posts and beams – are the same, if it's not some very fancy construction (like my neighbor's house), or a house sitting on posts hanging out over a steep cliff or hill-side. The bricks however makes a difference, where you can choose the usual cheap 10-baht or less a piece bricks, or you can decide to use burned clay bricks, or Q-con aerated concrete blocks, or a combination of burned bricks and Q-con. Choosing the right material and double walls – with or without heat insulation – will solve some of the problems you mentioned in your opening post, but also add to your square meter cost.

 

Roof is another major issue, especially due to the heavy rain in Thailand, and if you have any leaks in the roof, your house will rapidly be spoiled. You can easily spent double as much for a quality roof – like galvanized steel construction; and roof tiles with an excellent water protection without use of any cement; and under tile rainwater protection; and heat insulation – compared to a solution with just some cheap plates on a basic steel construction, and cement, with risk of cracks, on the roof ridge, if any.

 

50 percent and way up of a building construction budget is finishing, i.e. what materials you choose for tiles, decoration, floors, windows, doors, kitchen, fittings (especially in wet rooms), etc. You can for example find 180 baht a square meter floor tiles; or you can choose 3,000+ baht a square meter sand stone floor; or a marble floor in artistic patterns. You can decide for 150 baht a square meter wet-room wall tiles up to 1,5 meter in height; or you can decide for three-four times that price high-end floor-to-ceiling wall tiles, and mixed with costly decoration tiles of 1,000 baht or more a piece; or a complete marble wet-rooms. Do you wish Thai-style kitchen, or European-style kitchen? Do you wish to sit on a 1,490 baht loo, or a piece of 20k baht brand name porcelain?

 

I had, what I consider compared to European standard, a nice house made for just over 25k baht a square meter. My neighbor build his at same time for around 50k baht a square meter. Some of the differences was for example my affordable 400-600 baht a square meter floor tiles, compared to sand stone floors; and a fancy architect designed, and difficult to construct, roof compared to my more Thai-like roof; and teak-wood slide doors compared to my uPVC slide doors; and probably lots of other higher priced items in my neighbor's house – included a foreign project manager, compared to me be looked after everything myself – oh yes, not to forget Australian high-quality pool pump instead my cheap Chinese make for a third of the price; however the Australien pump lasted hardly two years, my cheap-Charlie pump survived six years, six times as long time as the Australian pump salesman predicted as being lifetime for a cheap Chinese pump...????

 

The best you can do, if you wish to build a house in Thailand, and has the time to oversee the construction yourself, is to contract only the basic construction with specified materials – like water proof cement to avoid cracks in posts and beams, and aerated concrete wall bricks – and buy all decoration materials and fittings yourself, and only contract the labor, which is often calculated per square meter, and per running meter decoration tile, floor nose, etc. Up Isaan it's often a custom to contract the labor only, and buy all materials yourself, whilst on the island where I live – and probably other turist destination islands also – you often contract complete projects; including turn key solutions.

 

My neighbor and I build our houses in 2009-2010, so the same would probably cost a bit more today – the minimum wage has increased by 40 percent since then, so expect the labor cost to be increased about same level – today I would count 15,000 baht a square meter as minimum for an, after Western standard, acceptable building construction; double it, if you want proper Western-like quality...????

[sawadeeken]

On 11/1/2018 at 10:16 AM, geriatrickid said:

1. You are not allowed to own land. Even the promoted lease concept gives you nothing because there are no guaranteed rights for foreigners in Thailand. The one exception are US nationals because their country has a treaty with Thailand on land ownership rights.

 

2. You may think you will have a Thai wife who will own the land on your behalf, but unless you  have magical powers and can predict the future, there is a strong likelihood that after 5 or 10 years, all that you will have is an ex-Thai wife  who will own the land and you will have nothing. Wait until you are settled and a few years have passed in the relationship before buying anything.

 

3. Now let's say you do buy the land and you build a home. Remember that there are no zoning codes, no protection for your  rights. If Somchai wants to open an abattoir next to your home, or a karaoke bar, or a garbage  dump, or a cement factory, Somchai  can.  If a wat wants to erect a big loudspeaker next to you and have chants at 05:00 hrs, they can. 

 

4. In Thailand, quality costs, And if you are in  a tourist destination, it will cost more, just because you are a foreigner. There are no building standards and few qualified tradespeople. Unless you have building trades experience or are prepared to hire an experienced supervisor, whatever you build will be of poor quality and will have defects. For example, you have to know something about electrical work or have someone who will watch the wiring go in and be able to inspect work done, to be sure that you are not electrocuted in the shower.  I know very little about electrical things, but I can follow instructions about grounding and cut offs.  The water heater in my shower was not installed properly and I could have been electrocuted had the European landlord not believed me and  checked the installation after the  alleged electrician was done. 

 

5. Anything can happen in Thailand. You have no civil rights and few if any legal rights. Unless you are wealthy and connected, you can easily lose everything that you have. Do not invest in property here unless you have a  family to house and are prepared to lose it in a worse case scenario.

Remember that Thailand is subject to catastrophic loss and that insurance  costs. Foreigners cannot collect under the Thai relief programs which are  restricted to Thais.

 

6. Rent until you have roots in Thailand, and/or are fluent in the language and/or have a family. Buying for the sake of buying is a bad choice. 

 

Thai is a most informative reply with much accuracy and a experienced 'opinion' of the 'pitfalls' for some Farangs in Thailand. The OP who obviously knows little about Thailand (since he just learned about Farangs not 'owning' land - but in some cases own the house on the land) needs to listen to this reply.......

I might add that I also LOVE Thailand, but not the rich now it's government.......

Thai ladies can be some of the most fabulous 'partners'....... considering the percentages though (from so many happy Farangs.... and a few disgruntled Farangs) I would make a 'stab-in-the-dark estimate that 85% of the women will make fabulous 'partners' to Farangs who don't abuse them......... Whereas the other 15% Thai women are only out for financial gain, but live off the reputation of 'the good ones'........ and you 'won't know' till after a few years when the bank is 'EMPTY' and it is crying time......... CYA or KYAC (Cover Your A__s or Keep Your A__s Covered) till late in the game is my best advise........ At 30+ years old you need to 'study hard'........ Lots of Luck, OP......

[khunPer]

3 hours ago, xylophone said:

please be aware that you cannot own land legally in Thailand, although some people find ways around it which are not legal, so you can still stand to lose everything if the law is upheld as it should be.

40 million baht invested in listed projects, and you can "legally" own up to 1.600 m² land – it's only us cheap Charlies, who don't have equivalent to 40 million baht available for a presumably non-refundable deposit, that need to find other solutions...????

[Toosetinmyways]

5 hours ago, Badb0y said:

Can you suggest some in private message? 50k I can't afford but would be curious to see some

You do realise building costs quoted to you here are exclusive of land costs.

Did a quick google. Beachfront land for sale on Koh Samui 2 rai 7.9 million baht.

[Toosetinmyways]

6 minutes ago, Toosetinmyways said:

You do realise building costs quoted to you here are exclusive of land costs.

Did a quick google. Beachfront land for sale on Koh Samui 2 rai 7.9 million baht.

Sorry got the land sales mixed up. The land above is inland.

[Badb0y]

I cannot suggest building construction companies, as they need to be found locally – there are several threads about bilding a house in Thailand in various areas, as well as in general terms – price per square meter mainly depend of chosen materials, including the specialist labor cost, for example expert labor for fine marble floors would be higher priced, than the costs of laying some cheap floor tiles.

Thank you very much, very useful post

Just one thing that needs to be avoid found someone expensive but will make shit :D

[khunPer]

3 hours ago, Toosetinmyways said:

You do realise building costs quoted to you here are exclusive of land costs.

Did a quick google. Beachfront land for sale on Koh Samui 2 rai 7.9 million baht.

Wow...????

That was cheap, hardly 4 million baht a rai, can you share the link, or exact location on the island?

Beachfront land normally sells for more than that – in my area the last price (end of 2017), converted to a rai, was 54 million baht, asking price was 65 million baht converted to rai price, the actual plot size was smaller than a rai – 4 million baht a rai is usually inland price level.

????

[rickudon]

There are plenty of people willing to sell you land, or a house, in Thailand. They do not care if you can legally own it or not, as long as you pay ........ There are different types of land title, some severely restrict WHO can 'own' the land or what can be built on it. Corruption ensures these limitations can usually be overlooked, but every now and then the government has a blitz on illegal ownership and you can end up with nothing. Many foreigners set up small companies to own the land they built houses on, and some companies will still set it up for you - but the government considers this to be of dubious legality. Again, you could end up with nothing in the future.

 

If you just want a weekend retreat, rent. Far less risk. Possibly in the future Thailand will become a modern country with laws of international standard, and allow foreign ownership with few if any strings attached. But that is not going to happen any time soon.

[Toosetinmyways]

19 hours ago, khunPer said:

Wow...????

That was cheap, hardly 4 million baht a rai, can you share the link, or exact location on the island?

Beachfront land normally sells for more than that – in my area the last price (end of 2017), converted to a rai, was 54 million baht, asking price was 65 million baht converted to rai price, the actual plot size was smaller than a rai – 4 million baht a rai is usually inland price level.

????

I did correct it in a later post that it is inland. The beach front is 4 rai and 450 million. Out of OP range i think. C_lliers is the agent.

[xylophone]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 2:08 PM, khunPer said:

Roof is another major issue, especially due to the heavy rain in Thailand, and if you have any leaks in the roof, your house will rapidly be spoiled. You can easily spent double as much for a quality roof – like galvanized steel construction; and roof tiles with an excellent water protection without use of any cement; and under tile rainwater protection; and heat insulation – compared to a solution with just some cheap plates on a basic steel construction, and cement, with risk of cracks, on the roof ridge, if any.

Now that is excellent advice, because I lived in two houses where the roof was of substandard construction with tiles simply laid on a basic steel construction and it was not satisfactory at all.

 

This especially in the wet weather when the wind was blowing because it would blow rain under the tiles and the leaks would show in the ceilings of the rooms below. Furthermore they are apt to move because they are simply fixed by their own grooved pattern with the occasional piece of wire or suchlike.

 

A professional job with a galvanised steel roof won't have those problems provided the fixings are of the correct type and not just nails. Or as Khun Per has suggested, some form of waterproof/insulation below the tiles if you are going to use them, which can also help with keeping out the heat as well as waterproofing.

[Badb0y]

Now that is excellent advice, because I lived in two houses where the roof was of substandard construction with tiles simply laid on a basic steel construction and it was not satisfactory at all.
 
This especially in the wet weather when the wind was blowing because it would blow rain under the tiles and the leaks would show in the ceilings of the rooms below. Furthermore they are apt to move because they are simply fixed by their own grooved pattern with the occasional piece of wire or suchlike.
 
A professional job with a galvanised steel roof won't have those problems provided the fixings are of the correct type and not just nails. Or as Khun Per has suggested, some form of waterproof/insulation below the tiles if you are going to use them, which can also help with keeping out the heat as well as waterproofing.

So the 100% waterproof solution the galvanised with insulation? I think this is how they make in EU.