Australia joins the UK and USA with withdrawal of income verification

[HappyAndRich]

2 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

That would be dependant on Thai immigration not changing the size of the rock pile.

I said a good plan. That is the one that is solid and not depend on small changes.

[prism]

1 hour ago, Naam said:

only in your dreams because you'd still have to do the 90 days reporting.

With the O-X visa you still have to report to immigration in person once a year to have your qualifications and documents examined. 

[Thaidream]

11 minutes ago, HappyAndRich said:

Partly true, but with a good plan for the future, without climbing rocks unprepared, you will stand a better chance to control all that can be controlled.

The best placed plans of mice and men often go awry.  A quote by Robert Burns that is fitting.

 

Now a quote by me-  Shit happens.

 

Many people plan out their lives and bad, unfortunate things happen and while they had the means at the time to address those emergencies- it is difficult to start over again.

 

I was here in Thailand during the economic meltdown in 1997 when I saw millionaires become paupers  In 2008 when I was in America-  hundreds of thousands of people lost their homes and cars due to an economic  catastrophe.

 

Some of your comments have been rude. Taking any delight in the potential misery of another person is arrogance . A very wealthy colleague once told me- "Be nice to people on your way up, because you may meet them on your way down.'

 

 The majority of people just want to live their life and take care of their family.  

 

[mfd101]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Maybe mathematics isn't some peoples strong point, "its the same amount of money" using the income method or the lump sum method, 800k !!!! whether you bring it in monthly or yearly, keep it in a Thai account or keep it at home, you show and prove 800k. the income method doesn't mean you dont have the 800k, make 800k, have access to 800k. YOU STILL PROVE FUNDS OF 800K A YEAR.

 

I can have 800k in a Thai bank and be living on Mama noodles in a cold water, fan only room in Nakon nowhere, and going to a Thai hospital every second day OR I can have a liquid income of 65k a month and be supporting a buffalo and half a village in issan, and donating the rest to a Thai orphanage. 

 

I will say this very slowly for those that dont appear to understand.

 

ITS  THE  SAME  AMOUNT  OF MONEY !!!

 

On the day you walk out of the immigration office with a fresh extension stamp in your passport, you just showed proof of 800k over 12 months. 

 

 

 

You have half a point, but only half. There is a big practical difference between someone who has 800K in the bank now, and someone who will earn 800K gradually through the next 12 months!

 

I should have thought that was obvious. Money Management 101.

[Peterw42]

9 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

You have half a point, but only half. There is a big practical difference between someone who has 800K in the bank now, and someone who will earn 800K gradually through the next 12 months!

 

I should have thought that was obvious. Money Management 101.

A quick survey last night amongst 8 Australian friends, all using the 800k deposit and living on the old age pension. 8/8 said they would switch to the income method in a heartbeat but they cannot because the OAP is under 65k a month. 

They are not using the lump sum method because of their substantial wealth, they are using the 800k lump sum method because its the "only" option they can use.

 

Lots of guys using the 800k method, the money isnt in the bank "now", its in the bank for 90 days a year, the rest of the year they draw on it to live. (or in some cases, they put it in their mates account so he can show 800k for 90 days)

Edited November 4, 2018 by Peterw42

[mfd101]

7 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

A quick survey last night amongst 8 Australian friends, all using the 800k deposit and living on the old age pension. 8/8 said they would switch to the income method in a heartbeat but they cannot because the OAP is under 65k a month. 

They are not using the income method because of their substantial wealth, they are using the 800k lump sum method because its the "only" option they can use.

Yes, I think that was rather the point I was making - the difference between having it now and getting it (or not getting it) gradually over the next 12 months.

[CharlieH]

9 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

A quick survey last night amongst 8 Australian friends, all using the 800k deposit and living on the old age pension. 8/8 said they would switch to the income method in a heartbeat but they cannot because the OAP is under 65k a month. 

They are not using the income method because of their substantial wealth, they are using the 800k lump sum method because its the "only" option they can use.

Not suggesting anyone is lying, but you honestly think in that setting that one or two would say I cant make it, I'm worried ? No, they would go along with the rest.

(Just a thought ????)

 

I suggest there are a few proud people out there quite anxious at the moment.

[soalbundy]

33 minutes ago, HappyAndRich said:

Partly true, but with a good plan for the future, without climbing rocks unprepared, you will stand a better chance to control all that can be controlled.

I saved almost 3 million baht for my son and his higher education, my estranged wife who lives 1000 km away caused an accident, 3 million baht damages, guess who had to pay, it wasn't to be, my favourat lines :-

There paths that guide our way

rough hew them how we may

[HappyAndRich]

16 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The best placed plans of mice and men often go awry.  A quote by Robert Burns that is fitting.

 

Now a quote by me-  Shit happens.

 

Many people plan out their lives and bad, unfortunate things happen and while they had the means at the time to address those emergencies- it is difficult to start over again.

 

I was here in Thailand during the economic meltdown in 1997 when I saw millionaires become paupers  In 2008 when I was in America-  hundreds of thousands of people lost their homes and cars due to an economic  catastrophe.

 

Some of your comments have been rude. Taking any delight in the potential misery of another person is arrogance . A very wealthy colleague once told me- "Be nice to people on your way up, because you may meet them on your way down.'

 

 The majority of people just want to live their life and take care of their family.  

 

My comments are not made to be rude, as I later saw that one of them stepped over the line. I apologize for that.

However, what you are addressing is economic crisis. That have very little to do with a change of proof of income, and to have a safe buffer for dealing with a change that might lead to 100% increase in proof of income. If you today need 800K, then be safe and see to that you have the possibility to show 1600K to be on the safe side before you make life changing decisions without a way back or possibility to protect yourself. Same goes for monthly proof of income. If that possibility suddenly should disappear, then you must be prepared to meet the option to show the full amount. That is planning your own life and future, and have nothing to do with economic crisis and millionaires investing in the economic sector or their own companies.

Edited November 4, 2018 by HappyAndRich

[JackThompson]

16 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

You cannot count 100% on insurance. Many cases, reasons and excuses to not pay.

 

I know one guy who crashed his bike in a wall and severally hurt himself. Happened he just had a happy meal with friends and he had drink a little wine. Hospital found his blood was a bit over the authorised limit. The insurance refused any payment... It's just one example among many.

That would be the bike-insurance, I would guess, which has a health-component with restrictions.

 

10 hours ago, The Truth said:

Guys with a decent income can afford insurance or at least they can put away a bit of money aside for emergencies. Guys living on a subsistence income can't. 

9 hours ago, fforest1 said:

Please stop repeating this poor farangs are a burden to Thai health care rubbish...

I addressed a "stabilize and send-home" insurance scheme up-thread, which would eliminate this potential liability for Thailand for all foreigners here. 

 

Short-term tourists (no "money in the bank" required) can get seriously injured drunk-driving, too - and are in "party" mode, so probably a much higher % - and more likely the sort of injury requiring expensive ICU-care.

 

If this were a major issue concerning the authorities, they would need to solve the whole-thing - not just target retired/married expats.

[JackThompson]

15 hours ago, giddyup said:

15 hours ago, Sir Dude said:

They are trying to get rid of as many expats as they can.

It's been said many times, but no one has given any reasons as to why they would do that.

Agree there is no logical / practical reason to "crack down" on any self-funded expats  spending foreign-sourced capital into the economy.   I can come up with possible reasons related only to foreign-policy (China) and corruption (Agents), to explain this.

 

As to those saying they could just stop extensions or shorten them - yes, but this is being done incrementally - likely so that a smaller number of Thais will have their livelihoods destroyed with each change.  If a larger group had their businesses/jobs wiped-out all at once, it could create more of a backlash.

[Ron19]

A troll post and answers to it have been removed.

 

[HappyAndRich]

3 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I saved almost 3 million baht for my son and his higher education, my estranged wife who lives 1000 km away caused an accident, 3 million baht damages, guess who had to pay, it wasn't to be, my favourat lines :-

There paths that guide our way

rough hew them how we may

I am truly sad to hear that. Here you are talking about a situation that you could not prepare for and at all control. You did all you could do for giving your son the best in life, and that awful tragedy landed in your life. Vey unlucky and I hope you could be able to do something for your son anyway. All looks very good on you, and you seem to be standing on the solid ground all of us should do.

 

However, it is not same as the proof of income. That because having 800K as a minimum buffer when you move to a foreign country should be a minimum requirement according to me.

[onera1961]

58 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Old folks have health problems during long flights.  Have you ever flown to Thailand? 

Good point. I apologize for my insensitive comments.

[Peterw42]

17 minutes ago, HappyAndRich said:

However, it is not same as the proof of income. That because having 800K as a minimum buffer when you move to a foreign country should be a minimum requirement according to me.

The 800k buffer, as you call it, actually has the opposite effect. You end up with a bunch of people living here with little to no income, the only thing they have in the world is the 800k. They will never spend the 800k as they then cannot live here. 

What makes more sense, a guy with 800k in the bank and 10k a month income, or a guy without the 800k but a 100k a month income.

The 800k ends up being what you do when you cant actually afford to live here.

 

The 800k is often someone spending the last of their saving to buy an admission ticket to thailand, with no ongoing funds to stay here.

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Peterw42

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, HappyAndRich said:

sorry

OK, it's not a big deal, it is as it is, say yes to what is, it is the only sensible way. At least my son and my partner now have the deeds to the house that my estranged wife lives in as recompense and he has the house that we live in, that's where all my money went, but my income is sufficient for the IO and as of yet the German embassy still issues the income letter, I trust in life, through all the ups and downs it has sustained me.

[HappyAndRich]

1 minute ago, Peterw42 said:

The 800k buffer, as you call it, actually has the opposite effect. You end up with a bunch of people living here with little to no income, the only thing they have in the world is the 800k. They will never spend the 800k as they then cannot live here. 

What makes more sense, a guy with 800k in the bank and 10k a month income, or a guy without the 800k but a 100k a month income.

The 800k ends up being what you do when you cant actually afford to live here.

 

I don´t really believe that you are aware of what is the meaning with a buffer or at all what that is. I am talking about that you must have the possibility to put aside 800K that you do not need to touch, because you have a monthly income besides the sum, that you can live good on.

Also you discussion technique doesn´t work well with reality. If a person have a 10K income per month that they must live on. How can that person have a buffer on 800K. The person that have the income of 100K a month, is the one that has the possibility to have 800K put away for security. That one you take as an example that not have any savings. That is purely ridiculous. As I said before. The relocate and retire in a foreign country, you need the security of a pile of savings and a good monthly pay check. Anybody else that goes on to retire in a foreign country is playing with fire and taking a risk, that one day will bite them in their arse.

I am not stating this to be annoying or seen as arrogant. I am stating this because it´s substantial facts that many people seems to forget about and complain later. I feel truly sad for all people out there that are going to have a problem if the opportunity of showing monthly income disappear. As of now that is not a fact, though, and I for one still believe it will be left as an option in the future.

End of this. Let´s just agree to disagree.

[giddyup]

10 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

The 800k buffer, as you call it, actually has the opposite effect. You end up with a bunch of people living here with little to no income, the only thing they have in the world is the 800k. They will never spend the 800k as they then cannot live here. 

What makes more sense, a guy with 800k in the bank and 10k a month income, or a guy without the 800k but a 100k a month income.

The 800k ends up being what you do when you cant actually afford to live here.

 

The 800k is often someone spending the last of their saving to buy an admission ticket to thailand, with no ongoing funds to stay here.

 

If all they have in the world is the 800K then I suggest they shouldn't have come in the first place, but at least they have money for emergency medical treatment. If they spend the 800K what do they have then? There are still plenty of people who can afford to lock that 800K away and not miss it, or use it to live on 9 months of the year and just top it up 3 months prior to extension renewal.

[rhodie]

Some pretty insensitive remarks. Things change. The exchange rate changes. In the case of the Aussie dollar 33 to 23 in 5 years. UK, even worse over a longer time. Not always easy to predict 20 years ahead which is how long many expats have lived here. All I can say is good luck to those facing problems with these new rules. I hope there is a way out.

[HappyAndRich]

2 minutes ago, rhodie said:

Some pretty insensitive remarks. Things change. The exchange rate changes. In the case of the Aussie dollar 33 to 23 in 5 years. UK, even worse over a longer time. Not always easy to predict 20 years ahead which is how long many expats have lived here. All I can say is good luck to those facing problems with these new rules. I hope there is a way out.

Then the choice of 800K in a Thai bank account 10-15 years ago would have been even better. That would still be 800K, and would not have been affected by any exchange rates. That would have been the medicine that took away the need of a prediction factor.

If you see that as insensitive, I apologize. However, it´s in reality only pure facts and planning that eliminates the unsecure prediction factor.

As of the good luck, I am all for that. Hope everything will be possible to overcome for everybody that made a choice to move to Thailand.

[onera1961]

I wonder why other embassies are not announcing that they would stop issuing income affidavit. I sincerely believe TI would accept monthly income coming to Thai bank, at least for the married folks who may be more vulnerable than single person on a retirement extension using monthly income. How can they break up families? 

[luckyluke]

I settled here, 18 years ago, with a monthly income of 100.000 ThB, a local accident insurance, and a health insurance in my home country.

 

Due to the exchange vagary I get something like 75.000 ThB now for my 2.000 Euro.

 

I always spent the gross of my monthly income.

 

At 70 now I just hope T.I. will continue to let me live here on base of my monthly income.

 

I will certainly not advice anybody to do the way I did (do), unless completely conscious of what it represent.

 

The approach of HappyandRich is certainly not a drippy one, at least in my opinion.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by luckyluke

[HappyAndRich]

5 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

The approach of HappyandRich is certainly not a drippy one, at least in my opinion.

I sincerely hope they will solve the problem to satisfaction for all, and of course hope you and everybody else can continue stay as before.

[Peterw42]

13 minutes ago, giddyup said:

If all they have in the world is the 800K then I suggest they shouldn't have come in the first place, but at least they have money for emergency medical treatment. If they spend the 800K what do they have then? There are still plenty of people who can afford to lock that 800K away and not miss it, or use it to live on 9 months of the year and just top it up 3 months prior to extension renewal.

Yes, I would advise the same, if they only have 800k in the world dont come here. However, I do know of a couple of guys that live here and do not have the funds or income to support themselves, but have spent the last of there savings to put the 800k in the bank to qualify. 

The 800k deposit doesnt always equate to having enough to live here. On the contrary, lots of Australians on OAP get 40k a month, no where near the 65k but they have managed to scrap together the 800k to qualify. The 800k deposit is allowing guys with not enough income to live here.

[mercman24]

i bet most of ex pat retirees, under the 65,000 baht limit spend more into the Thai economy than 20 Thais put together, and yes i am under,the 65,000 but have big savings, as i keep saying all my money is in the UK thank you

[giddyup]

9 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Yes, I would advise the same, if they only have 800k in the world dont come here. However, I do know of a couple of guys that live here and do not have the funds or income to support themselves, but have spent the last of there savings to put the 800k in the bank to qualify. 

The 800k deposit doesnt always equate to having enough to live here. On the contrary, lots of Australians on OAP get 40k a month, no where near the 65k but they have managed to scrap together the 800k to qualify. The 800k deposit is allowing guys with not enough income to live here.

That 800K doesn't have to be locked away and left untouched, it can be used for living expenses 9 months of the year and just topped back 3 months prior to renewal of extension.

[giddyup]

10 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

i bet most of ex pat retirees, under the 65,000 baht limit spend more into the Thai economy than 20 Thais put together, and yes i am under,the 65,000 but have big savings, as i keep saying all my money is in the UK thank you

Well you better bring 800K over and deposit it into a Thai bank if you want to stay.

[Moonlover]

34 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

I wonder why other embassies are not announcing that they would stop issuing income affidavit. I sincerely believe TI would accept monthly income coming to Thai bank, at least for the married folks who may be more vulnerable than single person on a retirement extension using monthly income. How can they break up families? 

Yes, I've been thinking about that myself. If I were in the shoes of the 'other embassies' I think I too would wait a while until the backlash died down. A clearer picture will have emerged and they would be less likely to suffer their own backlash. Let the Brits and the Yanks 'take it on the chin' first, so to speak.

 

I completely agree with you that TI would not hinder the renewal of an extension from a married individual, providing they can prove they have sufficient income. And, of course a rule for one group should be a rule for all.

 

What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. Those who can meet the 65k/40k income per month rule have nothing to worry about.

[HappyAndRich]

15 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

The 800k deposit is allowing guys with not enough income to live here.

That will easily get solved quick. If they scraped together 800K as the last of their saving, and as you say do not have enough income to support their monthly living.
That will only be a problem the first year, and solve itself when there is not 800K left to apply for the second extension. 

They must take the money for living from somewhere, right?

[giddyup]

2 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

 

I completely agree with you that TI would not hinder the renewal of an extension from a married individual, providing they can prove they have sufficient income. And, of course a rule for one group should be a rule for all.

 

What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. Those who can meet the 65k/40k income per month rule have nothing to worry about.

But that's what these changes are aimed at, ensuring that falang retirees can meet the financial criteria and remain in Thailand. No reason for them to give anyone a hard time who can comply.