Denied Entry at DMK with 60 day visa from Penang

[Horace Lamb]

19 minutes ago, MRToMRT said:

600 days out of 2 years on tourist visas would make US immigration hit the red button big time.

Bingo.  Thai immigration want their happy tourists to enjoy the Land of Smiles, just arrive with the correct visa.

[cleopatra2]

3 hours ago, jackdd said:

This is not 100% correct, in Thailand the immigration officer has a list of reasons for which he can deny you, but he can not legally deny you entry just because he wants to

This is wrong, it's up to the discretion of the immigration officer

Yes, they will be fined, but i couldn't find anything in the law which says they are responsible for the departure, so i think they are not and it's most likely again up to the discretion of the IO how the person who was denied entry has to leave the country.

Being refused entry is not the same as being deported. They have a stamp for denied entry and another stamp for deportation, so there is a difference, but i don't know what this means in detail.

Thai Immigration law states the persons who are excluded from entry. However section 34 states the purpose for which the alien can be given permission to enter or stay.

If somebody presents themselves as a tourist , and upon subsequent investigation by the IO it is deemed that the alien is not a tourist, then the IO cannot give entry.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by cleopatra2

[anon537687643]

according to the op, seems you are seasoned travelers, yet you don't understand the rules (which are pretty much the same all over the world):
1. Having a valid visa in your passport gives you the right to arrive at the country's port of entrance but does not guarantee your entry which is 100% at the discretion of the immigration officer
2. If you were refused entry you must go back to the place you came from or to the place of your citizenship/residency
3. In case you were refused entry the airline that brought you here is responsible for your departure and is also being fined
4. Being refused entry means you are being deported. In this case your passport is confiscated, held by the authorities until the flight and then given to the flight crew who must hand it over to the authorities on the other end of the fight

Wrong! Not rules all over the world ! And your 4 points are just made up !


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[ParadiseLost]

On 11/24/2018 at 12:07 PM, Just Weird said:

Yes, there sure is comprehension and it's pretty obvious to anyone who can process the content that she was referring to the US as her own country, why else would she mention it?

In other words, you assume she is from the US...

 

So even though you are only making an assumption, you feel entitled to tell me I am wrong whereas all I stated was she may not be from the US.

 

<removed>

 

If the OP is still out there, please advise what passport you hold.

[jackdd]

30 minutes ago, ParadiseLost said:

In other words, you assume she is from the US...

 

So even though you are only making an assumption, you feel entitled to tell me I am wrong whereas all I stated was she may not be from the US.

  

<removed>

 

If the OP is still out there, please advise what passport you hold.

Imho it's quite clear that OP is a US citizen

What would the US say about its citizens (who broke no laws or did anything wrong) being treated that way and their passports confiscated?

[DrJack54]

31 minutes ago, ParadiseLost said:

In other words, you assume she is from the US...

 

So even though you are only making an assumption, you feel entitled to tell me I am wrong whereas all I stated was she may not be from the US.

 

<removed>

 

If the OP is still out there, please advise what passport you hold.

I agree that she may not be from USA. As for asking op for input, that won't occur. She has not posted since starting thread. A very detailed story at that. Sometimes when people give way too much information, its due to fanciful story. My reference detective school 101. 

[Briggsy]

11 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

I agree that she may not be from USA.

She states she is a US citizen.

 

11 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

As for asking op for input, that won't occur. She has not posted since starting thread. A very detailed story at that.

True.

 

12 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Sometimes when people give way too much information, its due to fanciful story. My reference detective school 101. 

I think the opposite. She was not vague on any points. Liars tend to be vague on the details. Detective School 101.

[ParadiseLost]

13 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Imho it's quite clear that OP is a US citizen

It is still your opinion, or assumption - you cannot state it conclusively as fact, can you?

 

Read that sentence again, nowhere does she state she is a US national; she asks what the US would do if it knew that its citizens were being treated this way, but that does not equate to her being from USA.

 

I hope you guys aren't English teachers ????

[BritTim]

37 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Imho it's quite clear that OP is a US citizen

 

Quote

What would the US say about its citizens (who broke no laws or did anything wrong) being treated that way and their passports confiscated?

 

I do not see it as definite. A perfectly reasonable interpretation of what the OP wrote is that the OP comes from a country that lacks the diplomatic clout of the US, and that was the reason for the disrespectful treatment. If a US citizen then, rather than talking about what the US "would" do, why not complain to the US authorities and find out? That said, I consider it very possible that the OP is a US citizen, and just venting without wanting to take any action, or (very likely) not at all sure the US authorities would, in reality, object to the OP's treatment.

[DrJack54]

Agree about us citizen thing. I often use USD in post about this and that. Its more universally understood. I'm au but often state info related to USA. As for the paradiselost ...dective 101. Yes agree when no time to pre think a "story", people often give most elaborate detail. That's why the first interview so important. However with time to plan....write a story, read over, etc then its an indication. The op has added nothing...ZIP.

IF genuine there would (possibly been follow up details) how did it pan out....what current stamps in pp...you coming back to los?...if so what strategy. Thaivisa is about helping members (yes with good about of bickering thrown in) but mostly we come to learn etc and perhaps advise someone in a certain situation. I'm in the camp that's not sure about this story given op departure on flight 555 to bali

[ParadiseLost]

12 minutes ago, BritTim said:

A perfectly reasonable interpretation of what the OP wrote is that the OP comes from a country that lacks the diplomatic clout of the US

This is my personal situation so perhaps I think accordingly.

 

The question may be rhetorical, but the sentence is definitely ambiguous... ????

 

[dcnx]

Tourism is down in Thailand and these imbeciles continue to turn away legit tourists who want to come and holiday here.

 

Thailand honestly deserves the cheap tour bus Chinese, budget Indians, budget Arabs, illegal Africans, and all the sex addicts that pour in BKK and Pattaya. It’s fitting. 

[Horace Lamb]

5 minutes ago, dcnx said:

Tourism is down in Thailand and these imbeciles continue to turn away legit tourists who want to come and holiday here.

 

Thailand honestly deserves the cheap tour bus Chinese, budget Indians, budget Arabs, illegal Africans, and all the sex addicts that pour in BKK and Pattaya. It’s fitting. 

You've just contradicted yourself. 

[Huayrat]

On 11/23/2018 at 8:53 AM, pmarlin said:

The OP is a good warning to those who abuse the system.

No limit on Tourist Visas so how are they abusing the system when they are entering legally?

[BobbyL]

We were talking about this in the pub on Friday. Some people I know work here online etc and get regular tourist visas. They spend all their money in Thailand and are not taking a job from a Thai. 

 

I don't understand why the fuss around these people continues to happen. If they aren't doing anything illegal whilst here I wonder if Thailand can continue to push them away. 

[overherebc]

16 hours ago, markaoffy said:

Wrong! Not rules all over the world ! And your 4 points are just made up !


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Especially 4.

You are not being deported, only refused entry.

Deportation would require a court case possible fine and a spell in IDC and I believe your embassy being informed although not 100% sure on that point.

[Misty]

24 minutes ago, BobbyL said:

We were talking about this in the pub on Friday. Some people I know work here online etc and get regular tourist visas. They spend all their money in Thailand and are not taking a job from a Thai. 

 

I don't understand why the fuss around these people continues to happen. If they aren't doing anything illegal whilst here I wonder if Thailand can continue to push them away. 

They are working without work permits or correct visas and permission to stay. This seems to have been okay with the authorities if the people are here for a short period of time while on holiday.  It looks like the problem occurs when people who may have once been tourists, are really no longer tourists.  For example, if they stay here more than 180 days in a given year they become tax residents, not tourists.  The income they earn is taxable, and the law requires work permits and visas with the correct type of extension.

[jackdd]

40 minutes ago, Misty said:

They are working without work permits or correct visas and permission to stay.

According to the department of employment people who work online (clients and money comes from abroad) are not considered to be working in Thailand, so using a tourist visa is ok.

 

40 minutes ago, Misty said:

they become tax residents, not tourists

"tax resident" is a missleading term, so maybe it confused you: People who stay in Thailand more than 180 days per year are considered as residents for tax purposes, nothing else. This has nothing to do with the purpose of stay.

 

40 minutes ago, Misty said:

the law requires work permits and visas with the correct type of extension. 

Which law is it exactly that defines working online as working in Thailand and would subsequently require a work permit?

Edited November 26, 2018 by jackdd

[gk10002000]

sorry but it sounds a bit dodgy.  You seemed to be missing some documentation, claimed to have left things on the plane.  Now just because one spent a lot of time in Thailand should not mean they are not a valid tourist.  But you had so many ins and outs and methods of ins and outs, it is suspicious, especially in light of the last few years where the Thai officials have been openly stating they are scrutinizing visas and stays in country.  If you and the hubby are fortunate enough and financially able to travel and go all these places, well good for you.  If turning 50 next year, what's wrong with sitting out for a few months until that time? 

[BobbyL]

50 minutes ago, Misty said:

They are working without work permits or correct visas and permission to stay. This seems to have been okay with the authorities if the people are here for a short period of time while on holiday.  It looks like the problem occurs when people who may have once been tourists, are really no longer tourists.  For example, if they stay here more than 180 days in a given year they become tax residents, not tourists.  The income they earn is taxable, and the law requires work permits and visas with the correct type of extension.

I agree.

 

However, what I don't understand is that Thailand is still very much developing so can they really afford to turn people away like this, because like it or not, those people are contributing to the economy far more than your average Thai. Both people I know earn around 100,000 per month and spend the majority of that in Thailand. That is a fair amount of money to the economy each year to turn away, and I guess there are 1000s like them. 

[balo]

2 hours ago, BobbyL said:

However, what I don't understand is that Thailand is still very much developing so can they really afford to turn people away like this, because like it or not, those people are contributing to the economy far more than your average Thai. Both people I know earn around 100,000 per month and spend the majority of that in Thailand. That is a fair amount of money to the economy each year to turn away, and I guess there are 1000s like them. 

True , I know at least 20 people working as digital nomads and they are not stealing jobs from anyone. 

There must be 10 000 people or more staying in Thailand right now on Tourist visas , they all contribute to the economy and support their extended Thai family. 

But the Thai immigration do not care, or they are too stupid to understand.

 

[Misty]

3 hours ago, jackdd said:

According to the department of employment people who work online (clients and money comes from abroad) are not considered to be working in Thailand, so using a tourist visa is ok.

 

"tax resident" is a missleading term, so maybe it confused you: People who stay in Thailand more than 180 days per year are considered as residents for tax purposes, nothing else. This has nothing to do with the purpose of stay.

 

Which law is it exactly that defines working online as working in Thailand and would subsequently require a work permit?

Thanks Jack it sounds like you may be a bit confused.  Please ask your questions to the Ministry of Labour and the Thai Revenue Department, I think they can help you.

[Misty]

49 minutes ago, balo said:

True , I know at least 20 people working as digital nomads and they are not stealing jobs from anyone. 

There must be 10 000 people or more staying in Thailand right now on Tourist visas , they all contribute to the economy and support their extended Thai family. 

But the Thai immigration do not care, or they are too stupid to understand.

 

It does sound like there are a large number of people who are working in Thailand on tourist visas. Foreigners working illegally here may be quite common (and not limited to Thailand). 

 

But rule of law is important for any economy to flourish. Ideally, the law should be fair, transparent, enforceable and fairly enforced.  Right now the Thais seem to be trying to enforce the laws they have.  You can't really blame them for that. Thailand could also consider whether the current laws makes sense in today's world and changing it to something more reasonable.  But until that is sorted, the fact remains that people who are not tourists and are working long-term on tourist visas are breaking Thai law.

 

People may feel justified in breaking Thai law for a number of reasons that many are stating (so many people are doing it, they don't personally agree that working online qualifies as work, they feel they are  contributing enough to the economy and shouldn't have to pay tax, etc).  Regardless of their own view, it now it seems they may be taking some risk in doing so.

 

 

[Sp4wnY]

Let's all pay taxes then shall we? Oh wait, we can't actually pay taxes because we can not get a work permit. Since we neither have a business in Thailand nor money coming from Thailand.

 

Else why would one pay taxes, when still having to deal with tourist visas? What do you pay taxes for? For staying 60 days and then being denied entry? I don't think so ????

Let's face it, it is not us who need to stop working from a laptop, there is nothing illegal with that.  It is the government who has to regulate such things. 

 

I am happy to pay taxes if I am allowed to stay here. 

 

[Misty]

48 minutes ago, Sp4wnY said:

Let's all pay taxes then shall we? Oh wait, we can't actually pay taxes because we can not get a work permit. Since we neither have a business in Thailand nor money coming from Thailand.

 

Else why would one pay taxes, when still having to deal with tourist visas? What do you pay taxes for? For staying 60 days and then being denied entry? I don't think so ????

Let's face it, it is not us who need to stop working from a laptop, there is nothing illegal with that.  It is the government who has to regulate such things. 

 

I am happy to pay taxes if I am allowed to stay here. 

 

Your options seem to be: 1) Continue to try to stay long-term here on a tourist visa, realizing the authorities may at some point suspect you are working illegally and put an end to doing so, 2) Set up a company and work legally with the allowed visa and visa extension, 3) Move somewhere else and try either of these options.  Your choice. 

[jackdd]

3 hours ago, Misty said:

Thanks Jack it sounds like you may be a bit confused.  Please ask your questions to the Ministry of Labour and the Thai Revenue Department, I think they can help you.

Which questions? You still seem confused. I just corrected your post because you gave wrong information.

I called the Ministry of Labour who referred me to the Department of Employment who told me that working online is not considered working in Thailand and you can do it while on a tourist visa because no work permit required.

Which is the same as you can see for example here, where people were working online with tourist visas, the Labor Department was there, but they said that the people who worked there did nothing wrong:

 

1 hour ago, Sp4wnY said:

Let's all pay taxes then shall we? Oh wait, we can't actually pay taxes because we can not get a work permit.

Why would you need a work permit to pay taxes? Doesn't make sense, i'm quite sure you can pay taxes without having a work permit.

Edited November 26, 2018 by jackdd

[Sp4wnY]

Actually one would need a good tax lawyer when wanting to stay over 180 days. I know in europe you would have to pay income tax regardless.  https://transferwise.com/us/blog/income-tax-in-thailand double taxation agreements come into play as well.

It does not make my other points less valid though.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Sp4wnY

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, BobbyL said:

However, what I don't understand is that Thailand is still very much developing so can they really afford to turn people away like this, because like it or not, those people are contributing to the economy far more than your average Thai. Both people I know earn around 100,000 per month and spend the majority of that in Thailand. That is a fair amount of money to the economy each year to turn away, and I guess there are 1000s like them. 

And thousands more who stayed here before, but have left.  And many thousands who never came, because of hearing the stories of those who have left and/or the many other reports which are very similar to the OP's report.  Billions of baht are being thrown away - especially when you consider how many of all those folks would likely spend foreign-sourced money here for decades - well into their old-age.

 

13 minutes ago, Sp4wnY said:

Actually one would need a good tax lawyer when wanting to stay over 180 days. I know in europe you would have to pay income tax regardless.  It does not make my other points less valid though.

There are dual-tax treaties with many countries to avoid double-taxation - so you can deduct what is paid in one from what is due in the other.  It is not so complex as to require a tax-lawyer, if you can read and understand the forms and documentation.  As someone who has prepared their own taxes for decades (personal and business), I would not be intimidated.

 

But, there is no "permission of stay" granted for paying taxes here - which is unfortunate.  Thailand could be raking in a lot of money from foreign-sourced incomes, and tax on those incomes, if they changed that policy.

Edited November 26, 2018 by JackThompson

[Sp4wnY]

Although I think compared to europe, thailand still has the problem to only tax income " from employment or business in Thailand, or assets located in Thailand, whether such income is paid in or outside of Thailand"[1]

 

And that might be the reason we can not get a work permit. It is all connected; or limited by the law in this case.

One an always open a company here but everyone knows it is not that easy here either.

 

So there you go, our western thinking does not apply here once again and without a lawyer I would have paid tax now for no reason nor benefit ???? 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Sp4wnY

[Maestro]

7 hours ago, jackdd said:

According to the department of employment people who work online (clients and money comes from abroad) are not considered to be working in Thailand, so using a tourist visa is ok.

 

"tax resident" is a missleading term, so maybe it confused you: People who stay in Thailand more than 180 days per year are considered as residents for tax purposes, nothing else. This has nothing to do with the purpose of stay.

 

Which law is it exactly that defines working online as working in Thailand and would subsequently require a work permit?

The following is the law but it makes no distinction between working online or offline. It is in Thai and so far I have seen no English translation of it.

Royal Decree on Managing the Work of Foreigners B.E. 2560 (2017) - th

amended by

Royal Decree on Managing the Work of Foreigners (No. 2) B.E. 2561 (2018) - th