melvinmelvin Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, Grouse said: Retaining freedom of movement? not that one, but the several points AW made re the role of the nation state versus the EU organs and the points she made re the sovereignty of the nation state Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 2 hours ago, talahtnut said: But what are we going to talk and worry about when its over? Learn to make chips I suppose. Brexiters will be redundant in more ways than one. What can we do with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billd766 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 11 hours ago, tomacht8 said: And also for the British sandwich it does not look good. Four billion sandwiches are bought annually in British supermarkets. This could be over soon. But that's not bread, but customs. Because there the agricultural products are passed through. Another consequence is tougher controls in the ports. According to Jim Winship of the British Sandwich Association, says, "I do not think consumers know how complex and global our industry is, and if we leave Europe with a bang, we would have problems. This would be enough border controls, because our industry works with fresh products that do not last long. The ingredients could rot in the docks before they come to us. "Most of the sandwiches are sourced from overseas, with 82 percent of Cheddar imported from the EU, as well as tomatoes at 80 percent and salad at 93 percent. quote "Most of the sandwiches are sourced from overseas, with 82 percent of Cheddar imported from the EU, as well as tomatoes at 80 percent and salad at 93 percent." If the "Cheddar cheese" is imported then it cannot be proper Cheddar cheese. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheddar_cheese The term "Cheddar cheese" is widely used, but has no protected designation of origin within the European Union. However, in 2007 a Protected Designation of Origin, "West Country Farmhouse Cheddar", was created and only Cheddar produced from local milk within Somerset, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall and manufactured using traditional methods may use the name.[6][7] Outside of Europe, the style and quality of cheeses labelled as cheddar may vary greatly, with some processed cheeses being packaged as "cheddar" while bearing little resemblance. Furthermore, certain cheeses that are more similar in taste and appearance to Red Leicester are sometimes popularly marketed as "Red Cheddar". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said: not that one, but the several points AW made re the role of the nation state versus the EU organs and the points she made re the sovereignty of the nation state Many Remainers, including me, do not wish to see closer federalisation. There is a continuum between isolated states and a single Eurostate. I want very close cooperation while maximising subsidiarity. So some kind of EEC2 suits me. The benefits of that FAR outweigh the disadvantages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talahtnut Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 16 minutes ago, Grouse said: Brexiters will be redundant in more ways than one. What can we do with them? We'll be revolting like you.. against EU poverty, and debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, talahtnut said: We'll be revolting like you.. against EU poverty, and debt. One doesn't see poverty in the EU countries I am familiar with. You will revolt when you finally understand you've been sold a pup. I'm looking for a Brexiter fridge sucker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vogie Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 53 minutes ago, Grouse said: One doesn't see poverty in the EU countries I am familiar with. You will revolt when you finally understand you've been sold a pup. I'm looking for a Brexiter fridge sucker. "I'm looking for a Brexiter fridge sucker." Curdle your own milk, buy a Vince Cable fridge magnet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomacht8 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said: IIRC, prices rose after we joined the EEC - thanks to EEC and CAP policy? It's not that easy. All purchasing power analyzes that make a longitudinal chronology come to different conclusions. Normal food become significantly cheaper. For a pound of butter, the average wage earner only had to work four minutes in 2009 - five decades ago he had to invest 39 minutes of his labor. Food prices have fallen significantly in the past 40 years if you consider how long you have to work for a commodity. Therefore, the development is particularly extreme with them. But even for clothes whose price has actually increased significantly, the employee has to work less. High-heeled ladies pumps cost according to the IW study in 1960 about 18.50 euros and 2009 about 77.50 euros. Nevertheless, you can afford it today after 5.5 hours of work - at that time it was 14.5 hours. The extreme case is the TV: In 1960, the average earner had to work for more than two weeks for a black and white device. Today he gets a simple color TV worth just under 190 euros after just one and a half days. The general trend that purchasing power is growing despite rising prices is also evident in products that have barely changed. Question how about an unregulated Brexit. Will prices rise faster than wages? I think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Grouse said: Many Remainers, including me, do not wish to see closer federalisation. There is a continuum between isolated states and a single Eurostate. I want very close cooperation while maximising subsidiarity. So some kind of EEC2 suits me. The benefits of that FAR outweigh the disadvantages But that is the problem and shows such shortsightedness. The EU wants closer federalisation. Luckily there are those with the vision to see this clearly. They voted leave in the 2016 referendum.???? You will be thanking those in the future. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/13/jean-claude-junckers-federalist-vision-for-the-eu-is-far-from-reality https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/07/the-eu-has-revealed-its-true-nature-a-federalist-monster-that-wi/ https://www.politico.eu/article/united-states-of-europe-germans-french-most-in-favor-poll/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 39 minutes ago, vogie said: "I'm looking for a Brexiter fridge sucker." Curdle your own milk, buy a Vince Cable fridge magnet. Fridge magnets can't be stuck to bus windows so wouldn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 22 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said: But that is the problem and shows such shortsightedness. The EU wants closer federalisation. Luckily there are those with the vision to see this clearly. They voted leave in the 2016 referendum.???? You will be thanking those in the future. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/13/jean-claude-junckers-federalist-vision-for-the-eu-is-far-from-reality https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/07/the-eu-has-revealed-its-true-nature-a-federalist-monster-that-wi/ https://www.politico.eu/article/united-states-of-europe-germans-french-most-in-favor-poll/ We have an opt out negotiated by Cameron. I favour the concentric structure with UK in an outer "orbit" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 23 minutes ago, Grouse said: We have an opt out negotiated by Cameron. I favour the concentric structure with UK in an outer "orbit" Have you been on the laughing gas.???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loiner Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 We have an opt out negotiated by Cameron. I favour the concentric structure with UK in an outer "orbit"Another one who’s wire to the moon. Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nauseus Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Grouse said: Fridge magnets can't be stuck to bus windows so wouldn't work. Sir Vince didn't have his own bus. But he has a fridge, I'm sure! ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 54 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said: Have you been on the laughing gas.???? Which bit would you like me to explain Camerons 2016 opt out from further integration? Or multiple levels of EU membership? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nontabury Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 9 hours ago, tebee said: You might have problems if you use frozen chips - we import half of them. https://projectblue.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/Market Insight/Potatoes_bitesize.pdf You have to ask yourself,why do we not produce enough for our own requirements. It can easily be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aright Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 3 hours ago, Grouse said: Many Remainers, including me, do not wish to see closer federalisation. There is a continuum between isolated states and a single Eurostate. I want very close cooperation while maximising subsidiarity. So some kind of EEC2 suits me. The benefits of that FAR outweigh the disadvantages Dear boy you have repeated this mantra many times and were it possible to change this ambition Brexit would never have happened. The fact is after forty odd years we are still moving in that direction and we Leavers don't know how to stop it so we did the next best thing...voted to leave. I have spoken to my MP (Remainer) about it and he is clueless when it comes to change in the EU; the organization is internally progressive without influence from the people they claim to represent. If we had stayed in what steps do you feel we could have taken to change outcomes? The danger is many member states are not alone in their dissatisfaction as evidenced by recent voting patterns and I fear no change means greater street violence in the EU. Most importantly the EU are not addressing this dissatisfaction instead calling for more EU. I would much prefer the old Common Market concept so that you and I could have spent the rest of our days discussing more intellectual subjects like the disappearance of Shergar or did Elvis Presley fake his own death? I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aright Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 4 hours ago, Grouse said: One doesn't see poverty in the EU countries I am familiar with. You will revolt when you finally understand you've been sold a pup. I'm looking for a Brexiter fridge sucker. Don't you go to France? You need to read the Borgen Project 14.1% of the population (almost 9 million) live below the poverty line. The EU definition of poverty is 60% of the populations median income. This means that 9 million people live on less than 954 euros a month. In France the bottom 20% of the population earn 5 times less than the top 20%. In Paris the overall poverty rate is 14% but when you look at the underprivileged neighbourhoods it's nearly 40%. The Restos du Coeur is a very large French organization involved in poverty alleviation. in 2015 they distributed 128.5 million meals. Lets not pretend poverty isn't a problem in most member states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talahtnut Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 50 minutes ago, nontabury said: You have to ask yourself,why do we not produce enough for our own requirements. It can easily be done. Unfortunately, cant be done, not enough agricultural land and too many mouths to feed. The UK gov. does not know the word sustainability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evadgib Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 If these boards allowed video links I think it would look like this....???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billd766 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 5 hours ago, talahtnut said: We'll be revolting like you.. against EU poverty, and debt. Grouse thinks that we are revolting anyway. A bit like Baldrick in the Blackadder series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 2 hours ago, aright said: Dear boy you have repeated this mantra many times and were it possible to change this ambition Brexit would never have happened. The fact is after forty odd years we are still moving in that direction and we Leavers don't know how to stop it so we did the next best thing...voted to leave. I have spoken to my MP (Remainer) about it and he is clueless when it comes to change in the EU; the organization is internally progressive without influence from the people they claim to represent. If we had stayed in what steps do you feel we could have taken to change outcomes? The danger is many member states are not alone in their dissatisfaction as evidenced by recent voting patterns and I fear no change means greater street violence in the EU. Most importantly the EU are not addressing this dissatisfaction instead calling for more EU. I would much prefer the old Common Market concept so that you and I could have spent the rest of our days discussing more intellectual subjects like the disappearance of Shergar or did Elvis Presley fake his own death? I Cameron won a concession on this so don't tell me it's impossible https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 2 hours ago, nontabury said: You have to ask yourself,why do we not produce enough for our own requirements. It can easily be done. It is the ignorance of the realities of Brexit illustrated by statements as this shows which led to the mistake of Brexit! The UK stopped being self sufficient in food in the 18th century. During the war, despite large amounts of urban parks and similar being dug up and turned over to agriculture plus large scale food rationing, we still couldn't grow enough to feed ourselves and relied on imports; hence the Battle of the Atlantic. It cannot be 'easily done.' But don't believe me, see what the experts have to say: Can Britain ever be food self-sufficient? Quote UK will run out of food in a year under no deal Brexit, says farmers union Remember, this is not Remainer propaganda; most farmers voted Leave. As that article says, changes in the UK's farming practices may increase yield; but we will never be totally self sufficient. Plus, of course, the UK population has become used to more exotic vegetables and fruit which cannot be grown here. "Import them under WTO terms' you may say. WTO tariffs for agricultural produce are very high; up to 30% for dairy products. So trading on purely WTO terms would drastically increase the cost of food in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nauseus Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 1 hour ago, talahtnut said: Unfortunately, cant be done, not enough agricultural land and too many mouths to feed. The UK gov. does not know the word sustainability. That the UK relies on so much imported food is ridiculous. This situation could be improved significantly but the government has dithered on moving on this too. There would not be the large choice in the markets that there has been but on the bright side The Guardian said we have plenty of Scotch and salmon, which would be a healthy option for everyone! We just need to convince Scotland to say in the Union. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 2 hours ago, aright said: Don't you go to France? You need to read the Borgen Project 14.1% of the population (almost 9 million) live below the poverty line. The EU definition of poverty is 60% of the populations median income. This means that 9 million people live on less than 954 euros a month. In France the bottom 20% of the population earn 5 times less than the top 20%. In Paris the overall poverty rate is 14% but when you look at the underprivileged neighbourhoods it's nearly 40%. The Restos du Coeur is a very large French organization involved in poverty alleviation. in 2015 they distributed 128.5 million meals. Lets not pretend poverty isn't a problem in most member states. https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN07096 Compare to U.K.? (BTW, absolute poverty in Denmark is 0.2%. Scotland could achieve that!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bomber Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 34 minutes ago, nauseus said: That the UK relies on so much imported food is ridiculous. This situation could be improved significantly but the government has dithered on moving on this too. There would not be the large choice in the markets that there has been but on the bright side The Guardian said we have plenty of Scotch and salmon, which would be a healthy option for everyone! We just need to convince Scotland to say in the Union. Scotland will leave the Uk just a case of when...then we have chaos part 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evadgib Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, bomber said: Scotland will leave the Uk just a case of when...then we have chaos part 2 Not in my lifetime (& i have quite a few miles left on the clock!) ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aright Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 16 minutes ago, Grouse said: https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN07096 Compare to U.K.? (BTW, absolute poverty in Denmark is 0.2%. Scotland could achieve that!) My contribution was just a reaction to your comment "One doesn't see poverty in the EU countries I am familiar with." I am pleased to see you now agree with my comment "Lets not pretend poverty isn't a problem in most member states." As for comparison I will let you do the sums but what ever the outcome I can assure you the state of affairs anywhere is not acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nauseus Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, bomber said: Scotland will leave the Uk just a case of when...then we have chaos part 2 I hope they don't and expect they won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 1 minute ago, nauseus said: I hope they don't and expect they won't. They could be like Denmark with Scotch. Mega powerful neighbour just the South. Similar population. Oil and gas. Tech. Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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