NZ tourist sexually assualted near Grand Palace, police say

[Bluespunk]

4 minutes ago, manarak said:

 

it doesn't justify it, however responsibility must always be understood as a continuum.

claiming the victim never bears any responsibility for what happened is simply wrong.

 

same as when I forgot my phone on my bike. the thief is fully responsible for being a thief, but I was also - to a much lesser degree - responsible for creating the opportunity.

 

we need a realistic and balanced view, not idealistic ideology denying reality.

I’m not claiming a victim of rape bears absolutely no responsibility for rape. 

 

I’m stating it. 

 

[richard_smith237]

5 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Read all my previous replies to you as you are asking the same thing. 

But you haven't answered...  or your answers and comments have been directed towards blaming the victim, and this is not my point.

 

My question is: Is it wrong to suggest a victim of a crime is partially responsible for their actions if they have placed themselves in harms way?

[Bluespunk]

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

But you haven't answered...  or your answers and comments have been directed towards blaming the victim, and this is not my point.

 

My question is: Is it wrong to suggest a victim of a crime is partially responsible for their actions if they have placed themselves in harms way?

Wrong. I did answer, you just didn’t like the answer.

 

However for the final time

 

They did not place themselves in harms way. 

 

The rapist chose to rape.

 

That is the only factor to consider. 

 

The victim of rape is never to blame and bears no responsibility for the filth who rape.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Bluespunk

[richard_smith237]

7 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Wrong. I did answer, you just didn’t like the answer.

 

However for the final time

 

They did not place themselves in harms way. 

 

The rapist chose to rape.

 

That is the only factor to consider. 

 

The victim of rape is never to blame and bears no responsibility for the filth who rape.

 

...... she most definitely found herself in harms way, she was extremely drunk, couldn't walk properly, in quiet alleyway and walked off with a guy she didn't know....   no one else placed her in that situation.... 

 

No one has suggested she is to blame, no one has suggested she bears responsibility for the filth who raped her.....  the suggestion is that she is responsible for herself, her own safety and she neglected this placing herself at risk. 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

If a drunk person falls into a lions enclosure and gets eaten, are they responsible?

 

If I wear a gold chain around my neck and wear it in a poor area and get robbed, am I responsible?

 

If I get drunk and go up to a bunch of Motorcycle taxi drivers and tell them all to “F*<k-@ff !!” and they kick seven bells out of me, am I responsible for my actions leading up to this point?

 

If I walk into a nigh-club, get drunk and fall into someone and get punched, am I responsible?

 

If I drink in a bar, get blind drunk, walk out on my own, then walk up a dark alley at 3am and get robbed, am I responsible for my actions leading up to this point?

 

I think you can see where this is going…. 

 

If I drink in a bar, get blind drunk, walk out on my own, then walk up a dark ally, meet a girl, go ‘somewhere’ with her and she rapes me, am I responsible?

 

 

Unless the victim can be absolved of all responsibilities for their actions leading up to an event / crime then they are responsible…. 

 

So why is it, that when a subject so sensitive as this can a lady not also be responsible for her actions leading up to an event?

[Bluespunk]

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

...... she most definitely found herself in harms way, she was extremely drunk, couldn't walk properly, in quiet alleyway and walked off with a guy she didn't know....   no one else placed her in that situation.... 

 

No one has suggested she is to blame, no one has suggested she bears responsibility for the filth who raped her.....  the suggestion is that she is responsible for herself, her own safety and she neglected this placing herself at risk. 

 

 

She didn’t PUT herself in harms way. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by Bluespunk

[marqus12]

Has anyone ever seen a man who got drunk...took the ladyboy

to the room and the next day shouted at the police station that

he was raped because he fell asleep and his a*s hurts in the morning.

Edited December 8, 2018 by marqus12

[richard_smith237]

22 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

She didn’t PUT herself in harms way. 

 

Someone else forced so much alcohol into her such that she was unable to look after herself?

 

 

You see... for most people if they drink so much and find themselves in an unfavorable situation they are likely to hold themselves responsible....  

 

.....say for example someone gets so drunk, decides to walk home alone (because while under the influence they lack the good judgement to ask their friends or to call a taxi).... while walking home someone robs their phone....   when this person wakes up in the morning would they not hold themselves responsible for getting so drunk and placing themselves in this situation?

 

Would you suggest this person is not responsible for losing their phone?

 

It's the 'thin end of the wedge'... the same 'wedge' we are discussing where at its extremity we have crimes of a heinous nature..... Where along this 'wedge' does someone stop becoming responsible for themselves?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

3 minutes ago, marqus12 said:

Has anyone ever seen a man who got drunk...took the ladyboy

to the room and the next day shouted at the police station that

he was raped because he fell asleep and his a*s hurts in the morning.

 

If he fell asleep - it's rape...   but I think most would agree (maybe not Bluespunk) that he is responsible for the situation he placed himself in... 

 

However, the blame for the rape does not lie with him, the blame belongs solely to the rapist (in this case the ladyboy). 

 

Blame and accountability are somewhat different from responsibility. 

[Bluespunk]

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Someone else forced so much alcohol into her such that she was unable to look after herself?

 

 

You see... for most people if they drink so much and find themselves in an unfavorable situation they are likely to hold themselves responsible....  

 

.....say for example someone gets so drunk, decides to walk home alone (because while under the influence they lack the good judgement to ask their friends or to call a taxi).... while walking home someone robs their phone....   when this person wakes up in the morning would they not hold themselves responsible for getting so drunk and placing themselves in this situation?

 

Would you suggest this person is not responsible for losing their phone?

 

It's the 'thin end of the wedge'... the same 'wedge' we are discussing where at its extremity we have crimes of a heinous nature..... Where along this 'wedge' does someone stop becoming responsible for themselves?

 

 

 

 

 

Drinking does not cause rape.

 

The rapists decision leads to rape. 

 

No one puts them self in harms way when it comes to rape. 

 

The rapist decides to rape. 

 

There is a very simple equation which can be used to decide responsibility in rape.

 

Rapist = 100%

 

Victim = 0%. 

[richard_smith237]

19 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Drinking does not cause rape.

 

The rapists decision leads to rape. 

 

No one puts them self in harms way when it comes to rape. 

 

The rapist decides to rape. 

 

There is a very simple equation which can be used to decide responsibility in rape.

 

Rapist = 100%

 

Victim = 0%. 

 

An answer which would be lapped up by the politically correct in a perfect world... 

 

It lacks the acceptance of reality that the world is not perfect and that there are very few absolute.... 

 

Drinking led to the girls poor decisions - this does not take any blame away from the rapist, but, outlines that the girls poor decisions placed her at risk.

 

The rapist decides to rape.... Agreed... and a girl who got herself highly inebriated presented a discussing rapist with an opportunity he would otherwise not have had if she had taken responsibility for herself and not drunk herself into oblivion, left the bar alone in the early hours and sat in an alley way.....  This doesn't blame the victim, 100% blame is with the rapist....   

 

This shouldn't have happened, but it did.. and it will again... And it could happen more if people are told they are not responsible for their actions, because people are responsible for their actions... they are responsible for ensuring they do not place themselves in harms way - this young lady most definitely placed herself in harms way... she allowed herself to get it a situation where a predator could easily take advantage of her.... what she did was not wrong... but it was irresponsible....

 

 

Anyway Bluespunk - I'm sure we're not going to agree and nothing I've written will influence your opinion. I was hoping to learn a little more when suspecting I myself may be somewhat insensitive and facing this from an overly 'logical and unemotional' viewpoint.....  but I can't escape from the my opinion that this young lady has paid a terrible price for her lack of responsibility.... 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by richard_smith237

[cyberfarang]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

If a drunk person falls into a lions enclosure and gets eaten, are they responsible?

 

If I wear a gold chain around my neck and wear it in a poor area and get robbed, am I responsible?

 

If I get drunk and go up to a bunch of Motorcycle taxi drivers and tell them all to “F*<k-@ff !!” and they kick seven bells out of me, am I responsible for my actions leading up to this point?

 

If I walk into a nigh-club, get drunk and fall into someone and get punched, am I responsible?

 

If I drink in a bar, get blind drunk, walk out on my own, then walk up a dark alley at 3am and get robbed, am I responsible for my actions leading up to this point?

 

I think you can see where this is going…. 

 

If I drink in a bar, get blind drunk, walk out on my own, then walk up a dark ally, meet a girl, go ‘somewhere’ with her and she rapes me, am I responsible?

 

 

Unless the victim can be absolved of all responsibilities for their actions leading up to an event / crime then they are responsible…. 

 

So why is it, that when a subject so sensitive as this can a lady not also be responsible for her actions leading up to an event?

I can answer all your questions with 2 words; tempting providence.

[BritManToo]

7 hours ago, mogandave said:

You ever get drunk and take a drunk woman (or man) home for sex?

 

 

Every time.

(unless they're so drunk they look like they will throw up or fall asleep)

Edited December 9, 2018 by BritManToo

[BritManToo]

10 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

I had my suspicions, but now I know for sure you are a troll.

 

If you are not then I pity you.

Better than being a fool.

[Bluespunk]

6 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

An answer which would be lapped up by the politically correct in a perfect world... 

 

It lacks the acceptance of reality that the world is not perfect and that there are very few absolute.... 

 

Drinking led to the girls poor decisions - this does not take any blame away from the rapist, but, outlines that the girls poor decisions placed her at risk.

 

The rapist decides to rape.... Agreed... and a girl who got herself highly inebriated presented a discussing rapist with an opportunity he would otherwise not have had if she had taken responsibility for herself and not drunk herself into oblivion, left the bar alone in the early hours and sat in an alley way.....  This doesn't blame the victim, 100% blame is with the rapist....   

 

This shouldn't have happened, but it did.. and it will again... And it could happen more if people are told they are not responsible for their actions, because people are responsible for their actions... they are responsible for ensuring they do not place themselves in harms way - this young lady most definitely placed herself in harms way... she allowed herself to get it a situation where a predator could easily take advantage of her.... what she did was not wrong... but it was irresponsible....

 

 

Anyway Bluespunk - I'm sure we're not going to agree and nothing I've written will influence your opinion. I was hoping to learn a little more when suspecting I myself may be somewhat insensitive and facing this from an overly 'logical and unemotional' viewpoint.....  but I can't escape from the my opinion that this young lady has paid a terrible price for her lack of responsibility.... 

 

 

 

 

No, victims suffer because of the actions of the filth who attack them. 

 

They are not responsible for what such scum chose to do. 

[mogandave]

I think the record is skipping...

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, Bluespunk said:

No, victims suffer because of the actions of the filth who attack them. 

 

They are not responsible for what such scum chose to do. 

You're getting a bit boring.

[vogie]

An intersesting article.

 

Myth: A person can avoid being raped as long as he or she follows certain guidelines, such as acting or dressing conservatively, not going out at night alone, and refraining from drinking alcohol or doing drugs.
Fact: Rape can happen to anyone at any time, no matter how cautious they are. Advising people to follow “guidelines” to avoid being sexually assaulted puts the responsibility of the assault on the victim. Instead, it is the responsibility of the assailant to avoid sexually assaulting others, and as a community, it is our responsibility to understand and promote the fact that sexual assault is never trivial, excusable or deserved, and

it is never the victim’s fault.

 

https://www.stsm.org/myths-and-facts-about-sexual-assault-and-consent

 

 

[mauGR1]

50 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

No, victims suffer because of the actions of the filth who attack them. 

 

They are not responsible for what such scum chose to do. 

Knowledge is awareness that the world can be a dangerous place.

Wisdom is trying the best to avoid dangerous situations.

Ignorance is an excuse for children, not for adults, and complaining has never fixed a done damage.

 

[mogandave]

Yes, in much the same way that anyone can get struck by lightning anywhere, anytime, regardless of what they’re doing or wearing.

If someone gets hit by lightning while wrapped in aluminum foil running around the roof of a skyscraper in the rain, they would bear none of the responsibility, and anyone claiming they had acted foolishly would be victim-blaming!

[AGareth2]

27 minutes ago, vogie said:

nstead, it is the responsibility of the assailant to avoid sexually assaulting others

what if they are mentally deficient

McNaughton rules

[Bluespunk]

25 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Knowledge is awareness that the world can be a dangerous place.

Wisdom is trying the best to avoid dangerous situations.

Ignorance is an excuse for children, not for adults, and complaining has never fixed a done damage.

 

None of which puts any responsibility for a rapists actions on the victim. Rape only occurs because the rapist decides to rape. The victim cannot be held responsible for the actions of such scum. 

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

None of which puts any responsibility for a rapists actions on the victim. Rape only occurs because the rapist decides to rape. The victim cannot be held responsible for the actions of such scum. 

Every decent person agree with that, but a potential rapist can be encouraged to act if the potential victim is alone and drunk.

That's not to say i don't have sympathy for the victim, of course, but pointing out a risky behaviour may be of some help for future potential victims.

[Bluespunk]

31 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Every decent person agree with that, but a potential rapist can be encouraged to act if the potential victim is alone and drunk.

That's not to say i don't have sympathy for the victim, of course, but pointing out a risky behaviour may be of some help for future potential victims.

What the victim does or did is not a cause to blame them for the actions of the rapist. 

 

The only one who bears any responsiblity is the rapist. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Bluespunk

[CharlieH]

Ok, lets dial back on personal remarks/comment please.

 

Rule 7.

You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[Rimmer]

Some coffee drinking troll posts and irate replies to them have been removed, they are provoking hostility and are not contributing to the discussion. 

[richard_smith237]

13 hours ago, vogie said:

An intersesting article.

 

Myth: A person can avoid being raped as long as he or she follows certain guidelines, such as acting or dressing conservatively, not going out at night alone, and refraining from drinking alcohol or doing drugs.
Fact: Rape can happen to anyone at any time, no matter how cautious they are. Advising people to follow “guidelines” to avoid being sexually assaulted puts the responsibility of the assault on the victim. Instead, it is the responsibility of the assailant to avoid sexually assaulting others, and as a community, it is our responsibility to understand and promote the fact that sexual assault is never trivial, excusable or deserved, and

it is never the victim’s fault.

 

https://www.stsm.org/myths-and-facts-about-sexual-assault-and-consent

 

 

 

Agreed, it is never the victims fault....  

 

However, I disagree that 'a person can avoid being raped as long as.....' part being a myth...  Because ones actions can lead up to an event... i.e. getting so drunk, doing drugs, being alone etc... not taking responsibility for your own safety....  its just common sense....

 

Much of the above seems way too overly protective of victims, the pendulum has swung so far beyond the realm of common sense....

 

And Rape Can't happen to anyone at any time... It can't happen to my Wife when she is with me and I don't leave her alone dribbling dunk in the alley at the side of a bar... because I never do that... It couldn't happen in a Taxi after we used to go out together (before we were married) because I would always escort her back home (if she'd chosen to drink and not to drive).... 

 

There are many situations where 'potential' is removed by acting responsibly.... 

 

Of course, its never the victims fault.... but never giving a potential would be rapist the opportunity or chance to find themselves in a situation to rape someone (or yourself) also works...  You can't stop all rapes... but exposure to situations where there is a higher potential risk can be controlled....

 

... these articles always miss this because they are so scared of common sense being interpreted as victim blaming... its not victim blaming... common sense is just common sense... 

 

 

[vogie]

23 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Agreed, it is never the victims fault....  

 

However, I disagree that 'a person can avoid being raped as long as.....' part being a myth...  Because ones actions can lead up to an event... i.e. getting so drunk, doing drugs, being alone etc... not taking responsibility for your own safety....  its just common sense....

 

Much of the above seems way too overly protective of victims, the pendulum has swung so far beyond the realm of common sense....

 

And Rape Can't happen to anyone at any time... It can't happen to my Wife when she is with me and I don't leave her alone dribbling dunk in the alley at the side of a bar... because I never do that... It couldn't happen in a Taxi after we used to go out together (before we were married) because I would always escort her back home (if she'd chosen to drink and not to drive).... 

 

There are many situations where 'potential' is removed by acting responsibly.... 

 

Of course, its never the victims fault.... but never giving a potential would be rapist the opportunity or chance to find themselves in a situation to rape someone (or yourself) also works...  You can't stop all rapes... but exposure to situations where there is a higher potential risk can be controlled....

 

... these articles always miss this because they are so scared of common sense being interpreted as victim blaming... its not victim blaming... common sense is just common sense... 

 

 

"However, I disagree that 'a person can avoid being raped as long as.....' part being a myth...  Because ones actions can lead up to an event... i.e. getting so drunk, doing drugs, being alone etc... not taking responsibility for your own safety....  its just common sense"

 

Disagree as much as you like, I don't care, not everybody has common sense, are you saying if you are lacking in the common sense dept you are asking to be raped. 

If I get falling down drunk and somebody shoots me in the head, is it my fault, have I asked for it, of course not. I could easily get shot in the head if I was sober, same as a lady who is drunk, a killer is a killer, a rapist is a rapist. Just because a lady is drunk do you honestly think that it turns him into a rapist, he is after a target, maybe he goes for the easy target.

With all due respects it would appear that common sense is lacking from some on this thread.

[richard_smith237]

18 minutes ago, vogie said:

are you saying if you are lacking in the common sense dept you are asking to be raped. 

No.. that's not what I'm saying... but I understand how someone without common sense may wish to imply this. 

 

19 minutes ago, vogie said:

If I get falling down drunk and somebody shoots me in the head, is it my fault, have I asked for it, of course not. I could easily get shot in the head if I was sober, same as a lady who is drunk...

A good analogy and better than many..... If I may elaborate on your above analogy... 

If you were to get falling down drunk, and went into the 'wrong area' of town (known for high crime), and got into a violent argument and got shot in the head, then the shooting wouldn't be your fault, but it would be understandable if some suggest you were responsible for the events leading up to your demise. 

 

To suggest you had no responsibility for the events leading up to your demise would be pulling the wool over your own eyes.

 

That said, if you were just randomly shot in the head then it would be fair to conclude you bore no responsibility.

 

Clearly, each event must be individually evaluated based on its own merit. 

 

 

32 minutes ago, vogie said:

I could easily get shot in the head if I was sober, same as a lady who is drunk, a killer is a killer, a rapist is a rapist.



 

Agreed... A Killer is a Killer, a Rapist is a Rapist...  and someone else actions do not change this... However, someone's else's lack of responsibility for their own safety could give these despicable characters opportunity where none would otherwise exist....

 

36 minutes ago, vogie said:

Just because a lady is drunk do you honestly think that it turns him into a rapist, he is after a target, maybe he goes for the easy target.

 

No... I don't think that at all... What I do think is that a 'Predator' will take the easiest target,  predatory criminals, rapists, will take opportunity in any guise or form... for example an isolated, lone drunk lady who is unable to look after herself... i.e. as you mentioned.... he goes for the easy target.

[AGareth2]

do we know if she was raped yet?