What's the point to 'seasoning' retirement funds

[xylophone]

21 hours ago, overherebc said:

How many expats in Pattaya alone?

Let's say all of them season 800,000 baht + ( Yes I know agents get around it. )

All that money sitting there, guess what the banks can make on it.

Nothing like the amount that Immigration makes out of the agents and other backhanders.

 

A former Consul said that Immigration where I live make "hundreds of million" baht a year this way so don't expect the recent changes to the Embassy letters fiasco being solved because it will drive many expats down the agent route..........."a nice little earner" as the saying goes.

[balo]

4 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

B15k seems awfully LOW. Where can it be done for 15k? Back then, the lowest price (I found) was twice that in BKK.

Between 15k and 20k in Pattaya . Just ask around. 

[JackThompson]

41 minutes ago, balo said:

Between 15k and 20k in Pattaya . Just ask around. 

For those who got a Visa this way, but don't live there, how are 90-day reports being handled?  Some offices (CM) are reported to be refusing TM-28s, to prevent people office-agent shopping. 

If I am ever forced to go the agent-route someday (hope not), I think I'd be more worried about some agent submitting fictional 90-day reports, than getting the extension itself - as it looks like one is trying to sneak around and hide one's whereabouts from the law.

[balo]

For those who got a Visa this way, but don't live there, how are 90-day reports being handled?  Some offices (CM) are reported to be refusing TM-28s, to prevent people office-agent shopping. 

If I am ever forced to go the agent-route someday (hope not), I think I'd be more worried about some agent submitting fictional 90-day reports, than getting the extension itself - as it looks like one is trying to sneak around and hide one's whereabouts from the law.

If you live in another province you need to be careful now. In Chonburi there have been no reports of "fake" stamps , Chonburi immigration are still allowing agents.

[farangx]

16 hours ago, thailand49 said:

Last, I was talking to my brother who has for sometime arranged through the New York HQ Bangkok Bank with S.S. to have his pension deposited it is then transferred to his Bangkok Bank account here in Pattaya. His payment arrives around the 5th of every month, as I remember the International rate was something like 32.75-80 that week. I don't expect to get that rate but something after conversion something in the 32.00? but based on our discussion he said he got 48,000 baht my math puts the rate he was given at something 31.50, I got a withdraw receipt from Aeon around that same period 32.40 out of their ATM.

 

If this is all true not only are they getting Interest on money for being seasoned by loaning it out they are giving a much lower conversion rate than an ATM, somehow something just smell to high heaven but being in Thailand it shouldn't be a surprise.????

The exchange rates your bank give you different for TT, credit cards, cash exchanged over the bank counter, etc.  For a currency pair, money changer rates are better than bank exchange rates which is better than ATM rates.  The best exchange rates one could get at the bank is spot rate, but that would be for a significant amount.

 

One has to expect the bank has to put that 800K to work over the 3 months period, no bank is going to let that money just sit there and do nothing.  The money must work for the interests the bank give you in return.  Not just the 800K alone, even the minimum 3K balance in the account to avoid fees are not spared.  ????

 

And lastly, it would be naive to think that only the Thai banks do it.

[Kerryd]

The requirement for the money to be in the bank for a set period of time (seasoning) came about when Immigration, who READS these forums, realized that there were a LOT of expats out there that did not meet the financial requirements and liked to BRAG about how they got around those requirements by simply "borrowing" the required money just long enough to get the bank letter.

 

Immigration expected that the money was what the "average" expat needed to live on for a year (based on whatever stats they had, probably on what the average tourist spending numbers were at the time, extrapolated over the course of a full year).

When they saw that there were a lot of people that were basically running scam by borrowing the money for an hour or two, they decided to clamp down on it. Just like they clamped down on all the people that bragged about how they'd been living in Thailand for years with almost no money at all, just by doing a "visa run" to the border once a month to get a new "30 Day stamp". Just like they started clamping down the Language Schools and "Ed Visa" scammers. Just like they clamped down on the people using "Income Letters" when they applied for Extensions. (Gee, I wonder why they clamped down on that. Maybe too many people bragging about how they didn't actually have any income but were still able to get a letter from their Embassy ?)

I'm sure their intention with the "seasoning" was to try and weed out all those people that didn't meet the financial requirements.
However, as I'm sure Immigration is still reading these forums (ThaiVisa and others like it of course) they will have loads of proof that there are still a lot of people trying to scam the system and even the locations of some of the "visa agents" that are helping them.

(Recall that one of the first things "Big Joke" did after taking over Immigration was raid a bunch of "visa agents" - in Chiang Mai wasn't it ?)
 

No doubt as some point in the (near) future, the regulations will change again and all those people that still can't meet the financial requirements (or simply refuse to do so for whatever reason) will suddenly find that they have no alternatives.

As well, the paperwork will probably change and a lot of people may suddenly find that agents are no longer an option. Wouldn't surprise me if such changes were already in the works as the new Boss settles in and gets a better understanding of what all is going on.

I'd guess that there still will be agents, but instead of you dropping off your passport and a wad of cash and coming back a week later to get your freshly stamped passport back, you may find that all they'll do is help you fill out the paperwork and you would still have to make the trip(s) to the Immigration office yourself. And they may not be able to "arrange" the financials for you anymore either.

 

Kind of like how they changed things so that when you do your Extension - you have to go in person to pick up your passport (and they take your picture). 

Always makes me laugh when I see people openly brag about how they are bucking the system - and then see them cry when the system gets changed and they are left hung out to dry.

I expect to see a lot of crying in the not so distant future.

[jacko45k]

40 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

Cut to save space

Maybe... but didn't all this start at a meeting back in April before there was a new man in town.... is it perhaps a way to push more people into the hands of those very agents who bypass monetary requirements, but pay someone for the privilege?

Time will tell.

[farangx]

On 12/14/2018 at 3:29 AM, xylophone said:

Nothing like the amount that Immigration makes out of the agents and other backhanders.

 

A former Consul said that Immigration where I live make "hundreds of million" baht a year this way so don't expect the recent changes to the Embassy letters fiasco being solved because it will drive many expats down the agent route..........."a nice little earner" as the saying goes.

To make 100 million baht from this game will require 6,000 players with a buy-in at 17K each.  For a branch turnover of 400 million baht a year, the number of players increase to 24,000.  That averaged out to 65 players a day, good turnover!

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

The requirement for the money to be in the bank for a set period of time (seasoning) came about when Immigration, who READS these forums, realized that there were a LOT of expats out there that did not meet the financial requirements and liked to BRAG about how they got around those requirements by simply "borrowing" the required money just long enough to get the bank letter.

Seasoning rules insured only their agent-partners could make the same type of short-term loans.

 

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

Immigration expected that the money was what the "average" expat needed to live on for a year (based on whatever stats they had, probably on what the average tourist spending numbers were at the time, extrapolated over the course of a full year).

They set it well above what is needed to live here comfortably, and enough that most average retired folks wouldn't get enough from their pensions.  The combo-method works for most - but w/o embassy-letters, many of those folks may now need agent "help."

 

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

When they saw that there were a lot of people that were basically running scam by borrowing the money for an hour or two, they decided to clamp down on it.

"Clamp down," by running their own agent-system.  Whether retirees have an income which is 3x or 10x what median-locals earn, in a country where there are no handouts to foreigners, is immaterial. 

 

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

Just like they clamped down on all the people that bragged about how they'd been living in Thailand for years with almost no money at all, just by doing a "visa run" to the border once a month to get a new "30 Day stamp".

Pushed to an elite-visa payoff, or ED (below), or Volunteer (agent-supported) ... though many did just up and leave, so their foreign-sourced incomes are now spent in other countries, instead of Thailand.
 

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

Just like they started clamping down the Language Schools and "Ed Visa" scammers.

Now required to pay an extra 3K to 5K baht every 90-days through the school, whether you attend classes or not - indicating they evidently didn't care about the "scammer" part - just "What's in it for me?"

 

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

Just like they clamped down on the people using "Income Letters" when they applied for Extensions. (Gee, I wonder why they clamped down on that. Maybe too many people bragging about how they didn't actually have any income but were still able to get a letter from their Embassy ?)

Maybe because they saw that as interfering with their agent-business? 

 

Some IOs began asking for backup docs in addition to the letter - often at CM.  That should have solved the issue, if "truth" were the objective.  No need to tell the embassies they must do a "verification" which they cannot (by law), so as to torpedo the letters.

 

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

I'm sure their intention with the "seasoning" was to try and weed out all those people that didn't meet the financial requirements.

Ensuring only their agents could issue those short-term loans.

 

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

However, as I'm sure Immigration is still reading these forums (ThaiVisa and others like it of course) they will have loads of proof that there are still a lot of people trying to scam the system and even the locations of some of the "visa agents" that are helping them.

(Recall that one of the first things "Big Joke" did after taking over Immigration was raid a bunch of "visa agents" - in Chiang Mai wasn't it ?)

I read about one which was using fake tax-documents for Indian's B-Visas, leaving a legally-hazardous paper-trail.  No way that was sanctioned from the top, as the agent-system clearly is. 

 

"Waiving seasoning," by contrast to fake-documents, is a legal option for a ranking IO, and the application would be accompanied by a valid bank-document showing 800K (that day) which provides some "CYA" to the process.

 

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

No doubt as some point in the (near) future, the regulations will change again and all those people that still can't meet the financial requirements (or simply refuse to do so for whatever reason) will suddenly find that they have no alternatives.

If they are unsatisfied with the percentage forced to their agents, they could further tighten things to increase that percentage.

 

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

As well, the paperwork will probably change and a lot of people may suddenly find that agents are no longer an option. Wouldn't surprise me if such changes were already in the works as the new Boss settles in and gets a better understanding of what all is going on.

The ads for "money free" / "sponsored" extensions are public.  There is no need to read about it here to find out this system exists.  Certainly, the person chosen to head immigration is well-aware of how the system operates.

 

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

I'd guess that there still will be agents, but instead of you dropping off your passport and a wad of cash and coming back a week later to get your freshly stamped passport back, you may find that all they'll do is help you fill out the paperwork and you would still have to make the trip(s) to the Immigration office yourself. And they may not be able to "arrange" the financials for you anymore either.

A few have reported this is available now, for a much lower fee when no "fixing" is required.  From those reports, the agent attends immigration with you, the official picture is taken, etc.

 

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

Kind of like how they changed things so that when you do your Extension - you have to go in person to pick up your passport (and they take your picture). 

Yet many still do not have to do this, at some offices, via some agents.  Many seem to do this by mail - though that opens up a dangerous can of worms regarding 90-day reports.

 

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

Always makes me laugh when I see people openly brag about how they are bucking the system - and then see them cry when the system gets changed and they are left hung out to dry.

I expect to see a lot of crying in the not so distant future.

Most of the ones crying, are the ones who were doing things honestly.  The point of the exercise is reducing the percentage of honest-applicants - to deny them honest options, thus force tribute payments from them.

Clearly, you dislike this sort of activity as much as I do.  Unfortunately, many things do not operate within the bounds of decency and morality, which we prefer.  I'd very much prefer the corruption would vanish, combined with something similar to the friendly immigration-policies in The Philippines - where Fixers were Banned, but self-funded expats are welcome. 

[JLCrab]

25 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

"Waiving seasoning," by contrast to fake-documents, is a legal option for a ranking IO, and the application would be accompanied by a valid bank-document showing 800K (that day) which provides some "CYA" to the process.

"Waiving seasoning" by the ranking IO would be a legal option so long as the ranking IO is charging per Section 35 of the Immigration Act only the "payment of fees as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations" which is now 1900 baht.

 

Otherwise, it is a bribe.

[garyk]

Only thing I can figure is a lot of folks have hefty investments here that make leaving hard?

IO rules have always been a little too doggy for my liking. 

Nice folks for the most part, Love the food and most Thai's.

Living here is dirt cheap, never really understood the 65K Baht rule either. I'm in BKK now for a few days getting the income letter. Cheap as chips to stay here.

 

Regards.

 

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, JLCrab said:

"Waiving seasoning" by the ranking IO would be a legal option so long as the ranking IO is charging per Section 35 of the Immigration Act only the "payment of fees as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations" which is now 1900 baht.

 

Otherwise, it is a bribe.

The receipt will be for 1900 Baht.  The agent's fee is paid to the agent - not to Immigration.  Given how difficult some IOs make honest, in-person applications, it's not hard to guess  what happens between the agents and IOs behind closed doors - but that is not proof.

[balo]

12 hours ago, Kerryd said:

The requirement for the money to be in the bank for a set period of time (seasoning) came about when Immigration, who READS these forums

Complete nonsense , what is your source that they are reading this forum ?

 

Do you think Thai immigration report back to Big Joke every time we post something here? They couldn't care less. 

 

[Jingthing]

21 minutes ago, balo said:

Complete nonsense , what is your source that they are reading this forum ?

 

Do you think Thai immigration report back to Big Joke every time we post something here? They couldn't care less. 

 

It's been well known over the years that some key immigration people DO read these forums. It's not they would react to every post but it would be naïve to think they wouldn't have a look. 

[JLCrab]

7 hours ago, JackThompson said:

but that is not proof.

I don't care what is or isn't proof -- it's a bribe just the same.

 

Are you expecting that the IO officer would give a receipt for his 15,000 baht share of the agents 20,000 baht fee?

[luckyluke]

We could claim that we are not suppose to know how an agent get you the 1 year extension after you pay him, we can only imagine.

Same as paying "the off" for a lady in a bar, we can imagine that the reason is sexual, but maybe it isn't.

 

[JLCrab]

7 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

We could claim that we are not suppose to know how an agent get you the 1 year extension after you pay him, we can only imagine.

[luckyluke]

9 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Can it been proven an agent bribed an official to get an extension.

 

Can it been proven a lady had sexual intercourse with a customer, they may have play domino together.

 

 

[JLCrab]

17 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Can it been proven an agent bribed an official to get an extension.

Who cares? Doesn't change anything.

 

But if you really wanted to prove it, just strap the agent upside down on a water board at some undisclosed location and, after being close to drowning a few times, the agent will likely admit that he or she gave the IO officer more that the 1900 baht on the invoice. You betcha.

[luckyluke]

Indeed, who cares.

I am 18 years here, get my extension based on income. I am Belgian, so far no problem to get a L.o.I. at the Austrian Consulate in Pattaya.

Maybe it will change, I not like to have to eventually use an agent.

So the Vientiane way is an option, but at 70 don't like to travel anymore.

My wife tell me : "you are 18 years in Thailand and still have these Western mentality, that you believe is the only right one. Thailand is not Belgium, why make your life and mine difficult?"

 

Yes, why? 

 

 

 

[JLCrab]

Well I don't have a wife so I guess I'll just have to find some other way.

[luckyluke]

You are obviously a scholar.

 

But ok back to topic and to each his own.

[JLCrab]

13 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

But ok back to topic

Never left the topic.

[KiChakayan]

18 hours ago, Kerryd said:

Always makes me laugh when I see people openly brag about how they are bucking the system - and then see them cry when the system gets changed and they are left hung out to dry.

Great post, but I am unsure whether you blame the cheaters for cheating or bragging about it?

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

6 hours ago, balo said:

Complete nonsense , what is your source that they are reading this forum ?

 

Do you think Thai immigration report back to Big Joke every time we post something here? They couldn't care less. 

It's been well known over the years that some key immigration people DO read these forums. It's not they would react to every post but it would be naïve to think they wouldn't have a look. 

All anyone has to do is view public agent-ads, to know what's on-offer.  They would not have published those ads w/o permission from their partners in immigration, who would only have given the green-light in order to increase the volume of "no money" applications. 

 

I have not seen anything posted here which is not known or easily deducible.   The only real solutions to these issues would stop the flow of extra-money, so are unlikely to occur.

[JLCrab]

33 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

All anyone has to do is view public agent-ads, to know what's on-offer.  They would not have published those ads w/o permission from their partners in immigration, who would only have given the green-light in order to increase the volume of "no money" applications. 

They can put up those 'no money' ads as -- at least those that I randomly checked -- they say that they supply the on-deposit funds required suggesting that they lend to you the 800K for retirement not that they payoff an IMM officer with your fees.

[Olmate]

3 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Who cares? Doesn't change anything.

 

But if you really wanted to prove it, just strap the agent upside down on a water board at some undisclosed location and, after being close to drowning a few times, the agent will likely admit that he or she gave the IO officer more that the 1900 baht on the invoice. You betcha.

Well recognised that waterboarding produces forced admission,s of guilt from honest people in order for the torture to cease. But why torture the agent...better to do the IO? Guess not!

[JLCrab]

2 minutes ago, Olmate said:

But why torture the agent...better to do the IO?

Sure why not? But the question posed was referring to an agent bribing the IO official.

[Peasandmash]

On 12/13/2018 at 2:43 PM, scorecard said:

Interesting point and I do wonder how much they make. Most Thai banks have a quite poor track record (compared to other countries) in terms of overdue / never paid commercial loans, mortgages, car loans, and credit cards debt is enormous, one of the worst, by country, in the world, so yes an interesting question in terms of what returns they make when they use your / my deposits to try to make money.  

 

the premium earned on loaned money is called interest. Banks make money by charging customers interest on loans and people who save money in banks get paid interest. Something to consider is that nearly all the "legal (aka taxed)" money in the world spends most of the time in a bank somewhere.

[Pattaya46]

10 hours ago, balo said:

Do you think Thai immigration report back to Big Joke every time we post something here? They couldn't care less. 

and they certainly have their own sources/indicators too.

"Big Joke" talked about the 800'000B yesterday :