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White House Welcomes Guantanamo Ruling

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  • Author

With all respect Gents, we're stepping away from the original post which was about Fundamental Legal Rights; for everyone.

" Reaction to Guantánamo appeals court ruling "

one of the reactions:

" Center for Constitutional Rights legal director Bill Goodman:

"We call on the legal profession and all Americans concerned about the loss of liberty undertaken by the Bush administration and now rubber stamped by the Court of Appeals to join with us in taking this fight to the United States Supreme Court. We call on Congress to take up the fight that the American people sent you to Washington to wage, to quickly enact legislation that will begin the process of restoring our most fundamental rights.''

more reactions here:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/16750498.htm

LaoPo

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Top Posters In This Topic

With all respect Gents, we're stepping away from the original post which was about Fundamental Legal Rights; for everyone.

" Reaction to Guantánamo appeals court ruling "

one of the reactions:

" Center for Constitutional Rights legal director Bill Goodman:

"We call on the legal profession and all Americans concerned about the loss of liberty undertaken by the Bush administration and now rubber stamped by the Court of Appeals to join with us in taking this fight to the United States Supreme Court. We call on Congress to take up the fight that the American people sent you to Washington to wage, to quickly enact legislation that will begin the process of restoring our most fundamental rights.''

more reactions here:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/16750498.htm

LaoPo

Careful, LaoPo, you are posting links to material not from your own pen! :D

On topic: The sooner the Gitmo prisioner situation is resolved through military tribunals, the better. Can't understand why this hasn't been resolved by now. :o

  • Author
Careful, LaoPo, you are posting links to material not from your own pen! :D

On topic: The sooner the Gitmo prisioner situation is resolved through military tribunals, the better. Can't understand why this hasn't been resolved by now. :o

I know....but I think I expressed my own opinion already in the first post.

The whole situation about the Guantanamo Bay prisoners is a disgrace to the free democratic world; if there's any left of it.

LaoPo

I worked at WT7. I had many friends who died in WT1&2, and I take real big offence at anyone who even infers that it was a deserved act.

There are those on here who not only believe it was a deserved act but also believe in their minds that it was a plot by the Bush administration. Leftoids, this stuff is precisely why we sarcastically label you the "reality based" community... :o

Is there something wrong with my computer? Have I accidentally pressed the "ignore" button, or something? Or are you now a mind-reader? Because, try as I might, I can find no post on this thread that says that any of us believe the above. Or are you just seeking to inflame?

Now, do you have a counter to my comments on US sanctioned terrorism on the British mainland and in NI vs terrorism perpetrated against the US, or am I guilty of spouting "half-baked conspiracy theories (??) and downright pathetic naivete"?

Is there something wrong with my computer? Have I accidentally pressed the "ignore" button, or something? Or are you now a mind-reader? Because, try as I might, I can find no post on this thread that says that any of us believe the above. Or are you just seeking to inflame?

Now, do you have a counter to my comments on US sanctioned terrorism on the British mainland and in NI vs terrorism perpetrated against the US, or am I guilty of spouting "half-baked conspiracy theories (??) and downright pathetic naivete"?

I was referencing some posts made earlier in other threads within Bedlam. There have been some real 'doozies' floated here e.g. Jews & Bush behind the twin towers collapsing.

The 'pathetic naivete' comment was not aimed in your direction NR. :o

With all respect Gents, we're stepping away from the original post which was about Fundamental Legal Rights; for everyone.

" Reaction to Guantánamo appeals court ruling "

one of the reactions:

" Center for Constitutional Rights legal director Bill Goodman:

"We call on the legal profession and all Americans concerned about the loss of liberty undertaken by the Bush administration and now rubber stamped by the Court of Appeals to join with us in taking this fight to the United States Supreme Court. We call on Congress to take up the fight that the American people sent you to Washington to wage, to quickly enact legislation that will begin the process of restoring our most fundamental rights.''

more reactions here:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/16750498.htm

LaoPo

Careful, LaoPo, you are posting links to material not from your own pen! :D

On topic: The sooner the Gitmo prisioner situation is resolved through military tribunals, the better. Can't understand why this hasn't been resolved by now. :o

Shut up Boon, I think it's apparent to everyone that you are a pathetic little armchair general.

You have nothing intelligent to add to this discussion, so stop trying to derail it with innane drivel.

There is a certain irony when Boon says that anyone opposed to this move must be a leftie, when it is exactly these kind of practices that the Soviet Union was renown for.

Yes please lets get back to the point of the OP.

The withdrawl of fundamental rights for the prisoners in Guantanamo shouldn't be taken lightly.

This action will come back to haunt those who advocate it now, but by then it will be too late because we will all have lost our rights, be subject to detention without evidence or trial by a fair hearing.

This has become apparent in UK legislation that was originally introduced to protect the majority against minorities, but were are used to quell disent in the majority that helped bring in the legislation in the first place.

There is a certain irony when Boon says that anyone opposed to this move must be a leftie, when it is exactly these kind of practices that the Soviet Union was renown for.

HeH...that pathetic naviete comment is certainly aimed in your direction, ski.

Run along now to the Jokes or Pets forum... :o

What?

Is that the most constructive thing you can say?

To be honest I wouldn't mind hearing the argument put forward by the advocates of this action,

but you're incapable of any type of constructive or intelligent thinking.

The Ignore function is going back on.

Trying to side-step the debates about foreign policy and sanctioning, etc., and return to the question of human rights...

It seems that most people have an expectation that there is a different set of human rights for citizens in peace time, non-combatants in war time, and combatants in war time. I've noticed that most people I've talked with (maybe not statistically balanced) harbor similar mixed beliefs: we'd rather risk letting a criminal loose than punishing an innocent, but when you talk about wars and soldiering, we'd rather lock up or kill an enemy than risk letting him loose to attack us again.

Forgetting the murky question of identifying when we are in war time and whether someone is a combatant as such, we already have the issue of knowing a uniformed soldier might be a a non-threat due to lack of commitment to their government's fight. I think that there are often people swept up in wars who are just too timid to refuse service, but also unwilling to fight beyond basic self-defense. They skirt along the edges, trying to avoid the guns in front and the ones behind.

What do people think of the human rights for these people, were they to be cornered or captured by the enemy? Does the enemy have any moral obligation to determine whether they are dedicated fighters or merely unwilling sheep in a costumed production? To me, this is a pretty fundamental moral question, before we try to address the hard practical question of delineating peace time and war, combatant and non...

Careful, LaoPo, you are posting links to material not from your own pen! :D

On topic: The sooner the Gitmo prisioner situation is resolved through military tribunals, the better. Can't understand why this hasn't been resolved by now. :o

I know....but I think I expressed my own opinion already in the first post.

The whole situation about the Guantanamo Bay prisoners is a disgrace to the free democratic world; if there's any left of it.

LaoPo

With all due respect to yourself, LaoPo, looking back to WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and for that matter, the Gulf War, enemy prisoners had no Habeas Corpus rights. They couldn't challenge their detention in an American court, nor should they have been able to do so.

You are reluctant believe that? Well, look back to 1942 when 8 Nazi saboteurs were captured in the United States. They asked to be tried before a civilian court, it was denied, and then all 8 of them were tried before a military tribunal and then hung by the neck until dead.

As far as the impact on say "American liberty", it's negligible because they're not Americans, and at best it's positive because keeping these people locked up is saving American citizens from attack. :D

  • Author
With all due respect to yourself, LaoPo, looking back to WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and for that matter, the Gulf War, enemy prisoners had no Habeas Corpus rights. They couldn't challenge their detention in an American court, nor should they have been able to do so.

You are reluctant believe that? Well, look back to 1942 when 8 Nazi saboteurs were captured in the United States. They asked to be tried before a civilian court, it was denied, and then all 8 of them were tried before a military tribunal and then hung by the neck until dead.

As far as the impact on say "American liberty", it's negligible because they're not Americans, and at best it's positive because keeping these people locked up is saving American citizens from attack. :D

With the same respect Boon Mee, you're talking about wars (above) which were fought on battlefields, in countries, in areas.

The case (which I didn't know about) with the 8 nazi saboteurs? Of course they should be treated as enemies during wartime and treated as such on the soil (US) they were captured according to the rules in said country.

I am talking about people who were kidnapped, guilty or innocent, on places all over the world and taken to Guantanamo Bay WITHOUT having an opportunity to defend themselves in a civilian OR military court; whether the US or an International court.

The US Government simply doesn't allow that.

But, is makes no sense to discuss this any further as you, from your words, agree with these acts from the US-Government.

I simply hope it will never happen to you or one of your beloved ones.

It happened to quite a few people, who were innocent and only released after years in GB under barbaric circumstances !

You call that 'justified' US Justice ?

edit extra:

One more question:

Do you think the US would allow 'badly misbehaving' US soldiers -and there were quite a few of them- , taken into custody by the local authorities in some country (think about Iraq or Afghanistan) be brought to civil- or military-court in that country?

I'll give you the answer:

NO!

LaoPo :o

One more question:

Do you think the US would allow 'badly misbehaving' US soldiers -and there were quite a few of them- , taken into custody by the local authorities in some country (think about Iraq or Afghanistan) be brought to civil- or military-court in that country?

The do exist...I forget the leader's name but he and his squad - mercs one and all are being held in a Kabul prison right now. Ex Green Berets and Rangers. It's a bit political if I recall - will look it up and get back to you.

Actually, I agree !00% with you that there should be resolution with the Gitmo prisioners but guarantee that we don't know all the details surrounding their incarceration. For the high-profile individuals like KSM - he'll likely never see the light of day for his role in 9/11.

  • Author

Please have a look at this link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6388585.stm

It's about a US soldier who was brought to a civilian court for serious crimes (gang rape and 4 murders whilst on duty in Iraq); it was a civilian case because he was no longer a soldier..... :o

He was found guilty; the point however is that at least he had a trial.....

LaoPo

The whole situation about the Guantanamo Bay prisoners is a disgrace to the free democratic world; if there's any left of it.

Jeezus <deleted> chr*st! Where do people get this crap?!

There is nothing, repeat NOTHING, free and democratic about a prison! That's why it is called prison!

There d*mn sure is nothing free and democratic about a military prison. The military by its very nature is anything but free and democratic.

The first rule of war is there are no rules. Anyone who believes otherwise is kidding themselves. Wanna run with the big dogs? Well ya gotta sh*t with 'em too! Those stinking b*stards are there because they chose to fight for the losing side in a no-win situation. They deserve whatever they get.

The whole situation about the Guantanamo Bay prisoners is a disgrace to the free democratic world; if there's any left of it.

Jeezus <deleted> chr*st! Where do people get this crap?!

There is nothing, repeat NOTHING, free and democratic about a prison! That's why it is called prison!

There d*mn sure is nothing free and democratic about a military prison. The military by its very nature is anything but free and democratic.

The first rule of war is there are no rules. Anyone who believes otherwise is kidding themselves. Wanna run with the big dogs? Well ya gotta sh*t with 'em too! Those stinking b*stards are there because they chose to fight for the losing side in a no-win situation. They deserve whatever they get.

That is just the Imperial Japanese Army thought of the Allied POWS, funny eh?

Willing to treat with your enemy dishonorably without regard for your own. I believe we accused them of the same, yes?

What in this situation is making us better than them?

That is just the Imperial Japanese Army thought of the Allied POWS, funny eh?

To equate the Japanese treatment of PoWs in WW2 to American treatment of the Gitmo slugs is completely ignorant or completely moronic. Take your pick. It's just so off the wall as to barely be worthy of a response. I believe that WW2 PoWs would find it quite insulting.

That is just the Imperial Japanese Army thought of the Allied POWS, funny eh?

To equate the Japanese treatment of PoWs in WW2 to American treatment of the Gitmo slugs is completely ignorant or completely moronic. Take your pick. It's just so off the wall as to barely be worthy of a response. I believe that WW2 PoWs would find it quite insulting.

The Japanese Imperial viewed those POWs as less than dirt say just what you said, they get what they deserve. So, makes you any different from them when your ideas are one in the same.

Okay, let's turn in on the other head than. What is the difference between keeping people locked up because they might be terrorists as opposed to rounding up all the Japanese in America because they might be loyal to Japan?

Deal with them or don't but they can't stay in limbo forever.

  • Author
Those at Gitmo are treated quite, well probably better than what they are treated at home.

http://www.xomba.com/club_gitmo_terror_det..._on_hi_cal_diet

Can't believe you read cr_p like this Brit, to be honest; can't even believe you buy this...

But, let's assume the Guantanamo prisoners are getting such fine food (to make them fat).....why would that be, you think ? :o

LaoPo

Kind of reminds you of Barbara Bush's comment about how lucky the Katrina victims were to be living in the Astrodome. :o

Kind of reminds you of Barbara Bush's comment about how lucky the Katrina victims were to be living in the Astrodome. :D

Ouch! :D She really said that?!! :o

September 7, 2005

Barbara Bush Calls Evacuees Better Off

By THE NEW YORK TIMES

WASHINGTON, Sept. 6 - As President Bush battled criticism over the response to Hurricane Katrina, his mother declared it a success for evacuees who "were underprivileged anyway," saying on Monday that many of the poor people she had seen while touring a Houston relocation site were faring better than before the storm hit.

"What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in Texas," Barbara Bush said

Full story http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/07/national...agewanted=print

Also reported in most publications for those who have problems with the Times.

That is just the Imperial Japanese Army thought of the Allied POWS, funny eh?

To equate the Japanese treatment of PoWs in WW2 to American treatment of the Gitmo slugs is completely ignorant or completely moronic. Take your pick. It's just so off the wall as to barely be worthy of a response. I believe that WW2 PoWs would find it quite insulting.

What's revealing is your use of the phrase 'Gitmo slugs'. These are people that have been held in captivity for years and against whom the US has failed to make any sort of case of illegality. When pushed the US government wriggles and squirms and claims they aren't POWs, aren't held in the US and/or aren't US citizens thus aren't entitled to the legal protections that US citizens are entitled to.

For those of us who previously looked to the USA as an upholder of basic human rights this is a huge disappointment.

That is just the Imperial Japanese Army thought of the Allied POWS, funny eh?

To equate the Japanese treatment of PoWs in WW2 to American treatment of the Gitmo slugs is completely ignorant or completely moronic. Take your pick. It's just so off the wall as to barely be worthy of a response. I believe that WW2 PoWs would find it quite insulting.

What's revealing is your use of the phrase 'Gitmo slugs'. These are people that have been held in captivity for years and against whom the US has failed to make any sort of case of illegality. When pushed the US government wriggles and squirms and claims they aren't POWs, aren't held in the US and/or aren't US citizens thus aren't entitled to the legal protections that US citizens are entitled to.

For those of us who previously looked to the USA as an upholder of basic human rights this is a huge disappointment.

Right! How can we say we are upholding American values when we aren't practicing any? How do you explain honor to someone who has none?

  • Author
For those of us who previously looked to the USA as an upholder of basic human rights this is a huge disappointment.

That's well put, Endure.

I feel very sad sometimes about the US (Government) but not the American people themselves.

This absolutely great nation we all looked upon once, especially also in Europe, has changed.

I can understand that a number of fellow TV members feel 'attacked' sometimes if we talk about the US-governments' decisions, wars, Guantanamo, Human Rights (where this topic started) and can also understand that they are defending the Government and it's decisions.

Understanding that they are mad......angry, about 9/11 and supporting the following 'War on Terrorism'.

But is this great nation the same nation which helped to liberate Europe from the nazi regime?

Is this the same great nation fighting and defeating Japan after Pearl Harbour ?

The world has changed because so much has happened since 50 to 60 years ago.

I remember I was enjoying my numerous trips to the US, setting up a business in California, having fun about it. Having lots of -true and fine- friends there.

Countless millions of people enjoyed going to the US for holidays.

No more.

The USA feels it is the greatest country/nation on earth and it probably is.....still.

It's absolutely beautiful and accomplished numerous great things, inventions, the internet, software, the American Dream.

The American Dream...

Is it, still ?

LaoPo

But is this great nation the same nation which helped to liberate Europe from the nazi regime?

I don't want to side track, so i'll keep it brief.

It is the commonly held perception, it's what we get taught in history class, that the US entered the war in Europe to conquer Fascism.

An alternative perception would be that the US entered the war in Europe to stop the spread of Communism, which became a possibility after the collapse of Axis forces in Stalingrad and the Eastern front and also to secure Nazi scientists and their accumulated knowledge for US benefit.

I believe the latter to be true, the US does a great job of hiding it's fascistic credentials,

the Spanish civil War outlined the roles of nations for WW2,

the US and Britain were key supporters of Fascism,

pehaps thats why they never teach us about that in school. But I digress.

With all respect Gents, we're stepping away from the original post which was about Fundamental Legal Rights; for everyone.

" Reaction to Guantánamo appeals court ruling "

one of the reactions:

" Center for Constitutional Rights legal director Bill Goodman:

"We call on the legal profession and all Americans concerned about the loss of liberty undertaken by the Bush administration and now rubber stamped by the Court of Appeals to join with us in taking this fight to the United States Supreme Court. We call on Congress to take up the fight that the American people sent you to Washington to wage, to quickly enact legislation that will begin the process of restoring our most fundamental rights.''

more reactions here:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/16750498.htm

LaoPo

This is the battleground, the United States Supreme Court.

I hope that good sense and judgement will prevail.

I am not an American, but I will suport his action,

if you are an American what will you do to help support it?

Well, as we finish the last two years of Bush's Presidency, we are witnessing "end stage" Bush Derangement Syndrome, which manifests itself by the histrionic and blind hatred of anything the President does or does not do.

This "end stage" BDS--like terminal syphilis--has culminated in blindness combined with an insanity so profound, the consequences to those who suffer it--as well as to our country--will likely be quite profound, if not lethal, since they hinder and undermine this country's ability to deal with real threats. :o

BDS: The acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency -- nay -- the very existence of George W. Bush."

Wow, more plagerism. (I'm truely shocked)

http://drsanity.blogspot.com/

Have you ever noticed the parallels between America-bashing and penis envy? :o

Nobody's bashing the US here. Dissent does not equal bashing, it equals disagreement.

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