BREAKING NEWS Thai immigration reveals new requirements for retirement, marriage extensions (visas)

[007 RED]

As a footnote.... The original post claimed that the document was signed by 'Big Joke'.... Sorry it was not... it was one of his minions ????

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

As a footnote.... The original post claimed that the document was signed by 'Big Joke'.... Sorry it was not... it was one of his minions

Perhaps not the directive but the cover letter/memorandum for it is signed by him. Or did you not get a copy of it.

[Thaidream]

Is this the final version or a draft that is being  sent to Immigration Offices for comment?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

12 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

In my original post I indicated that I would post a copy of the document and that is attached for those who would prefer to translate for themselves.

 

I hope this helps and will no doubt generate more responses.

TI Memorandum.pdf

 

Red, in your prior summary of this in the prior thread, I don't believe there was any use of the term "average" in any of the monthly income summary details. And yet, that term appears in the ThaiVisa summary that's the start of this new thread.

 

So now with all this water under the bridge, might I ask, does your wife see the Thai version of the term "average" in any of the monthly income sections of the Thai language document, or that term is in fact not used there?

 

[mfd101]

22 minutes ago, Pib said:

How do you "definitely know?"

Because the document announces what it is about. Unaccountably, it doesn't announce what it isn't about (God, the universe, the meaning of life, what's for dinner tonight etc etc).

[Danthai]

My next visa early extension is in mid September. I do not get my two pensions through the Bangkok Bank. I use a counter transfer once a month from my US credit union. Walk down hall and put immediately in my SCB book. Since the change of rules started already, I have immediately started scanning my monthly debit transfer slips before they fade and file then. I then highlight the corresponding deposit date and amount in my SCB book corresponding to each counter transfer date and amount. I also download a monthly copy from credit union showing the monthly deduction transfered. 

 

I'm sure there are many naysayers that will find some reason to say this wont work, but cant believe IO wont accept. I also have proof of pension amounts by both Government lifetime pensions. In 21 years of using marriage visas, working 12 years under University contract, and retirement visa extensions I have never found the Immigration people to be unfair or as bad as most feel they are. Find a way that works for you in showing your transfers. I believe they will consider your method if you you make an honest attempt to have what is needed.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Danthai
typos

[wobalt]

After reading all this the way for me at the time being is definitely the visa way


Gesendet von iPhone mit Thaivisa Connect

[Srikcir]

33 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

A bank-officer's signature and stamp is more reliable to a Thai official than anything from our home-countries

About as reliable as Thailand's cottage industry of fake passports, visas  stamps and work permits.

The fact is that as part of the annual extension Immigration accepts uncertified copies of one's passport and other documentation secured by self-certification.

 

[garyk]

There is fixing to be a huge rise in marriages here in LOS's 

And some out of work immigration officers before long.... haha

[steve73]

36 minutes ago, Pib said:

I figure a Transferwise receipt would have as about weight with TI as an ATM slip---that is zero weight.  TI will want "Thai bank" generated docs confirming an international transfer.

I would suggest that your Thai bank may be better placed to "understand" the TW receipts, use them to confirm to their satisfaction that the incoming money originated from overseas, and would issue a letter stating as such, suitable for T/Imm. 

 

But I'm only guessing....  

[JackThompson]

 

3 hours ago, rossco1 said:

They are making it harder for people to move here 

do they not want foreigners to live in the country 

it seems that the rules are to make it harder for people to settle and feel secure in the choice that they have made to retire in Thailand.

maybe time too look at moving to another country that welcomes all nationalities 

There is not a consensus on whether they want us here.  There is a clique within immigration (and other govt-offices) that hate our presence, and an opposing group who do not agree with them.  These two factions have divided the country by amphoe, immigration-office, and even entry-point - with neither able to force its way on the other.

 

I'd rather a country that simply welcomes those who are self-funded - not taking jobs from locals.  To some extent, Thailand still fits that description, provided you avoid the various offices/entry-points/etc who are staffed by the "anti-foreigner" faction.

 

4 hours ago, bizboi said:

… and do you think the Thai Government will care if they are? "If you are destitute go home" they will tell them!!

Sadly true - even though each of those "go home" cases means the income to support 3 or 4 Thai jobs is also lost.  I am not surprised that immigration are not looking out for our interests - but the lack of concern for their own citizens by a faction/clique within it is tragic.

 

3 hours ago, Vacuum said:

4 hours ago, rossco1 said:

maybe time too look at moving to another country that welcomes all nationalities

EU has a variety of choises....

Yep - few "standards" to meet at all - at least, not as we used to consider the word "standards" to mean.  Similar to the USA, in that respect - you don't even have to enter legally, there.  Just barge in and start demanding handouts, then say they aren't good enough, then demonstrate in the street waving your old-country flag.  And if you commit a crime, it will be "downgraded" it to a lesser-offense, to avoid the "cruelty" of deportation.  (Disclamer: some nationalities may not qualify)

[onera1961]

39 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

I hope this helps and will no doubt generate more responses.

Now it seems everything is clear. After this if someone posts if "my stat docs will be accepted or not", I just have to throw my laptop out the window. ????

Now I am only interested in how to play the round robin game effectively using DeeMoney????

Going to Bangkok next week and I will open a DeeMoney account and start transferring back 25K every month to my US bank.

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by onera1961

[sometimewoodworker]

9 minutes ago, Danthai said:

My next visa early extension is in mid September. I do not get my two pensions through the Bangkok Bank. I use a counter transfer once a month from my US credit union. Walk down hall and put immediately in my SCB book. Since the change of rules started already, I have immediately started scanning my monthly debit transfer slips before they fade and file then. I then highlight the corresponding deposit date and amount in my SCB book corresponding to each counter transfer date and amount. I also download a monthly copy from credit union showing the monthly deduction transfered. 

 

I'm sure there are many naysayers that will find some reason to say this wont work, but cant believe IO wont accept. 

probably depends on the office you use. I'm sure that in some offices it will not work, others may use discretion. I wish you luck, you may need it.

[Arkady]

11 hours ago, Eligius said:

On the face of it, this looks EXTREMELY worrying for British retirees here. The irresponsible action of the British embassy in not confirming a retiree's income flow could be the death knell for many Brits here. Also, as far as I understand it, the British Government will not send pensions into a Thai bank account (only into a British one), and not every British bank will automatically forward a pension to a bank account in Thailand every month. Maybe I am wrong. 

 

Perhaps it is not as bad as I fear. What do other members think?

 

I don't think they are going to require evidence that the payments were sent direct from the pension provider.  As you point out, this may be either impossible or impractical. Many company pensions payments are now outsourced, so it may not be obvious where the payments came from.  If they insist that it must be seen to be coming from the pension provider, they are going to need certified letters to prove who is your pension provider, which is what this system is designed to avoid.  I may be wrong but I am optimistic that you are going to be able to have your pension or pensions paid into a an account in the home country and organise a standing order for onward payment to your Thai bank account. If so, this will make ilt easier for those who need to combine their state pension with a private one to make up the amount and, conversely, those who have a more generous pension and don't want to remit more than the required minimum to Thailand. I think bank will just have to certify that you have received monthly payments from your home country totalling X amount in the last 12 months.

[Pib]

4 minutes ago, steve73 said:

I would suggest that your Thai bank may be better placed to "understand" the TW receipts, use them to confirm to their satisfaction that the incoming money originated from overseas, and would issue a letter stating as such, suitable for T/Imm. 

 

But I'm only guessing....  

A Thai bank is not going to look at a printout of foreign document like a TW receipt....that Thai bank representative is going to press a couple of entries on their system to printout some standard Thai bank report/letter based on transfer coding in their system linked to the incoming transfer.

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, mikosan said:

Seems reasonably staightforward to me.  P60 from the UK showing pension income.  12 months worth of Transferwise receipts showing the monthly transfer of the GBP equivalent of 65K THB from the UK to my Thai bank account and dependent on how long your bank keeps statements available, in my case two 6 month statements from my Thai bank, showing the money being transferred in.  That'll do for me, thanks.  Let's see what happens when I try to extend in August, but I am hopeful and there are a few months between now and then to determine whether this will suffice.

The letter from your Thai bank showing Foreign Xfers will be the primary document - replacing the embassy-letter.  The rest could be helpful if the IO wants some sort of backup-proof of the origin of the funds.

 

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

There is nothing for them to "print out" that shows this. I can get a Credit Advice for each transaction form the head office that shows the origin and path of the transfer and, upon providing this to the local branch, they will provide a letter to that effect.

 

However I don't know what a Credit Advice for a TW transfer would look like. The ones from banks show all details including any intermediary banks/accounts so I suspect it would also shwo the foreign point of origin but it needs someone with a TW transfer to get their Credit Advice to see.

Best not to take that risk.  There is a letter-format in the works with the banks - a "primary document" for income-based extensions - and I would not bet that "credit advice" research would be included (though it might be).

 

3 hours ago, teetersb said:

This is the same for American retirement. There is no US agreement with Thailand, therefore my monthly retirement cannot be transferred here. I transfer it once a year to a Thai bank and then give myself a monthly amount, in a different Thai bank, that is equal to my retirement and add the rest to make 400,000k Baht/year, (33,500 Baht/Mo.) not 40,000 Baht a month. I use the second bank to show my yearly income. Not sure how this New law will effect this process.

You would need to make monthly international xfers to the account you will show immigration if using the "income" method, or to show the "income portion" for the combo method.

[Arkady]

11 hours ago, johnjohn2 said:

Evidence of a pension. Letter of certification from a Thai bank supported by bank statements showing a pension being transferred to the pensioner’s bank account every month for at least 12 months.

 

I wonder if this means that you have to have your pension being direct deposit to the Thai Bank? Or you can just show deposits of which you transferred yourself from your bank to the Thai bank at minimum required amounts. 

I think the latter. The first category is for income from family overseas, rather than pension, in the case of those with a Thai wife (or other Thai family). They don't need to be over 50 and can receive qualifying monthly income from individuals in their home country.  The only evidence required is of the relationship with the Thai person, not the person sending the income from overseas.  If they can live with income from unknown individuals overseas for marriage extensions, my guess is that they can live with it for retirement extensions.

[Pib]

Based on many of the posts in this thread I think below images sums it up.

 

 

 

 

 

[sfokevin]

For those of you in the US who rely on the ACH transfer to Bangkok Bank NY as your transfer method should note that April 1st this method will most likely end... (Social Security payments made this way are not effected)

 

Read more here...

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by sfokevin

[JackThompson]

 

20 minutes ago, gamini said:

The problem is that many expats didn't have the required income but claimed they did,

How many is "many" - and if this is known, why didn't immigration report these cases to respective passport-country prosecutors?  I'm sure it would have been all over the news (even if the passport-country won't arrange a finger-pointing session).

 

 

3 hours ago, David Walden said:

Thai Immigration appears to be suggesting that they hopefully are getting rid of all the scams...nothing has changed so far as I see it.  It is all the same as it was.  The Embassy letters were part of the Scams...sorry.

On the contrary, more will be using their scammy "pay us off via an agent" system, than ever before, given many folks have bills to pay in their passport-country out of gross incomes which may be close to the min-required. 

And for those who lie about their income - lying on an embassy-letter risked a felony-charge for AU/USA citizens.  But now, that risk is gone, so more scamming on that end is also more likely.

 

3 hours ago, Delight said:

 Suspect that this option may have finished.

It is impossible to 'fiddle ' the new rules

Money in the bank for 3 months  can be achieved via a 3 month loan from friend

No indication the existing 800K method is gone. 

It is easier and much less risk (no passport-country felony-charge) to fiddle the new rules than the old ones. 

Few friends will "loan" that much money for 3 mo - unless you have some really cool and wealthy friends.  Why ruin a friendship, when the IO's agent-buddy will take care of everything for 15K Baht?  He'll only loan you the money for an hour, but coming from him, it will be "good enough" when submitted. 

 

3 hours ago, JLCrab said:

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Returning some portion to invest it would not violate the rules, which specify the need for an "income of" x - but does not specify how it should/must be spent.

At least not so far the rub being how much is "some".

Exactly.  And, it seems they "forgot" to consider this? 

 

If I were betting, I'd put some chips on "Designed to fail and make it look like it's the farangs' fault for cheating," since this system appears to be wide-open to just that. 

 

But, I'd also put some chips on, "Most are too lazy to go to that much trouble, and enough will pay the agents to keep the IOs happy." 

 

Many who have the money, are saying making a xfer once a month is too much trouble, trying to skimp with unreliably verified xfer methods, etc.  Many of these will end up at an agent when the IO puts their stacks of receipts, etc in the "round" file.

[Pib]

Social security payments are not affected "if" social security is transmitting your payment in IAT format...according to Bangkok Bank approx 80% of the SS payments rec'd are in IAT format. 

 

Unfortunately, I have a family member who is in the 20% whose SS payment here in Thailand is not being sent in IAT format (has a Thai address on file with SSA); it's in PPD format which will be rejected come 1 Apr 19.  I'm working with the SSA in trying to get the payment changed to IAT format.

 

 

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, ginjag said:

My point being scrap the bank deposits /income.   CHARGE a yearly fee for retirement visa 60,000 baht.   with guarantee residence /deeds and maybe medical insurance.  think of the massed income Thai immigration would inherit and TAT more than happy with extra tourism

Make it 24K (approximately double Cambodia's annual "ordinary" visa and PI's 3-yr-extendable tourist visas annual-cost), and that could work.  Put 3K from each application in an account to reimburse public-hospitals for any unpaid farang bills, which should run a surplus that could be used to buy new tech.

 

Over 30K/yr and you'd definitely lose a lot of folks to other locales.  A lot of fun and/or relaxation time can be had many places in the world (including Thailand) for 30K Baht.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

40 minutes ago, Danthai said:

My next visa early extension is in mid September. I do not get my two pensions through the Bangkok Bank. I use a counter transfer once a month from my US credit union. Walk down hall and put immediately in my SCB book. Since the change of rules started already, I have immediately started scanning my monthly debit transfer slips before they fade and file then. I then highlight the corresponding deposit date and amount in my SCB book corresponding to each counter transfer date and amount. I also download a monthly copy from credit union showing the monthly deduction transfered. 

 

I'm sure there are many naysayers that will find some reason to say this wont work, but cant believe IO wont accept. I also have proof of pension amounts by both Government lifetime pensions. In 21 years of using marriage visas, working 12 years under University contract, and retirement visa extensions I have never found the Immigration people to be unfair or as bad as most feel they are. Find a way that works for you in showing your transfers. I believe they will consider your method if you you make an honest attempt to have what is needed.

 

There's nothing in any of the details of this latest supposed policy from Thai Immigration that would even suggest what you're currently doing is going to meet their "monthly income" verification requirements.

 

Your deposit into your SCB account is arriving as Thai cash, so SCB presumably is going to be unable to issue you a letter stating that you had 12 monthly foreign source transfers into your SCB account.

 

The more interesting question, though, is whether your US credit union counter withdrawal using BKK Bank -- if you had BKK Bank directly deposit those funds into a BKK Bank account -- would allow BKK Bank to say they handled 12 monthly foreign deposits into your account with them.

 

 

[garyk]

9 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Make it 24K (approximately double Cambodia's annual "ordinary" visa and PI's 3-yr-extendable tourist visas annual-cost), and that could work.  Put 3K from each application in an account to reimburse public-hospitals for any unpaid farang bills, which should run a surplus that could be used to buy new tech.

 

Over 30K/yr and you'd definitely lose a lot of folks to other locales.  A lot of fun and/or relaxation time can be had many places in the world (including Thailand) for 30K Baht.

30-40K should be the monthly requirement IMO for retirement here. 65K is a joke.

Just make it 35K across the board, marriage, single. All these different rules are crazy.

Edited January 6, 2019 by garyk

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

5 hours ago, Moonlover said:

A TransferWise transaction slip shows a clear 'paper trail' of the funds, starting from receipt of the home country funds (GBP in my case) to the payment of the THB equivalent into the payee's account in Thailand.

 

Matched to the same credit entry on the payee's bank statement should suffice I'm sure in proving that the funds came from abroad.

 

I'm downloading and saving all of mine in readiness.

 

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

The Primary Document immigration will want to see is the letter from your Thai bank showing the monthly foreign xfers.  As long as your transferwise payments appear as foreign on that letter, you are fine.  If they don't show as foreign xfers, do not expect an IO to care what other paper you attempt to show them.

I agree. I don't expect to be using them at the TI office, but they may be useful when approaching the bank for their confirmation letter.

 

T/W entries do not appear as foreign transfers on Krungsri statements, so I'm preparing a bit of backup just in case.

 

It's all uncharted waters at the moment.

 

ML

[phutoie2]

So four embassies refuse to verify their citizens incomes and this will be TI response to that. Fair enough, soldier on. 

[Moonlover]

2 minutes ago, phutoie2 said:

So four embassies refuse to verify their citizens incomes and this will be TI response to that. Fair enough, soldier on. 

For the us Brits and the Danes there's nothing much new in this process. We've always had to prove our incomes to our respective embassies, so we're used to it.

 

But I can understand that this must be rather daunting for our US and Aussie colleagues. This all new to them.

 

Don't worry guys, you'll get used to it.

 

ML

[moe666]

24 minutes ago, garyk said:

30-40K should be the monthly requirement IMO for retirement here. 65K is a joke.

Just make it 35K across the board, marriage, single. All these different rules are crazy.

Good luck with that

[BertM]

So, starting in July 2019 after the income affidavits & letters have expired, it appears that many expats are still planning to use the monthly income method with bank books & other documentation to support their 65k+ in monthly overseas transfers. My question is, are we sure TI will accept the monthly income method? What is the backup plan if TI does not accept the income method or the documentation? At that point, if you didn't have the money seasoned, what can you do? Just kindly asking... Does anyone know for certain what type of income and what type of documentation will be accepted?  

Edited January 6, 2019 by BertM

[moe666]

reading threw many of the post I canot believe how hard some people are making this it appears clear cut to me. From now you will need to deposit, 65k for retirement and 40k for marriage, monthly in a Thai bank account if you are using the income method. I have to ask how hard is that. of course a few are already figureing out how to scam the system or even wanting a lower bhat amount for the two options. The lower amt. will not happen you are probably lucky they didn't raise the amt needed.. Reading comprehension seems to be big problem with many who post here.