SURVEY: Build the Wall -- Yes or No?

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, Cryingdick said:

 

I said nobody knows. I meant just that stop trying to spin every damn thing I say. You don't know, they don't know, I don't know. 

You seem selective in the claims you challenge.

 

I’ve yet to see you push back against any of Trump’s lies.

 

 

[Cryingdick]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

You seem selective in the claims you challenge.

 

I’ve yet to see you push back against any of Trump’s lies.

 

 

 

My assertion is nobody knows the real figures because it isn't allowed to be asked. 

[Chomper Higgot]

I realize this is from a far left, extreme liberal supporting news outlet, but nevertheless it’s worth a read:

 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-doubles-down-on-border-wall-as-polls-show-voters-turning-against-his-shutdown-strategy

[vinegarbase]

The wall will help. Illegal immigrant hordes of thousands can't just march in. Hundreds of pounds of drugs can't just walk right in. However the big issue is that the wall is just a beginning measure. What good is the wall if any of the immigration laws in the country are never enforced. Still have sanctuary cities and funding for them, still don't enforce visa overstays, still allow rampant asylum, refugee and marriage fraud, still allow birthright citizenship which is a huge magnet for illegals and birth tourists, little to no enforcement or penalties on employers of illegals, no real round ups and deportations like they do in Thailand. The list goes on. The US congress both parties are corrupt to the core and support illegal immigration otherwise they would do something. 

[Cryingdick]

22 minutes ago, vinegarbase said:

The wall will help. Illegal immigrant hordes of thousands can't just march in. Hundreds of pounds of drugs can't just walk right in. However the big issue is that the wall is just a beginning measure. What good is the wall if any of the immigration laws in the country are never enforced. Still have sanctuary cities and funding for them, still don't enforce visa overstays, still allow rampant asylum, refugee and marriage fraud, still allow birthright citizenship which is a huge magnet for illegals and birth tourists, little to no enforcement or penalties on employers of illegals, no real round ups and deportations like they do in Thailand. The list goes on. The US congress both parties are corrupt to the core and support illegal immigration otherwise they would do something. 

 

I would love for the border to also be enforced on the way out. When I say that I am talking about guns coming from America to Mexico. Almost every other facet of the border gets discussed but nobody mentions this aspect very often. 

[bristolboy]

3 hours ago, mcambl61 said:

well if that is your opinion, it just must be right, although since they are in the country

illegally and without documentation, you know there are 11 million, interesting.

 

That figure has been sighted at least since 2012, and yet it is magically still the same

assumptions from the liberal hive.

 

 

 

 

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0201193

 

then we have the amount of just overstays estimated at 600k in 2017 alone, and yet the 11 million

number being thrown around can never go up, add to that the illegal border crossings every year

and magically that 11 million figure just must be correct. So we have at a MINIMUM of 600k people illegally

entering each year and the number stays at 11 million, an amazing mathematical phenomenon.

 

"For fiscal year 2017, DHS estimated in a report released in August that there were 606,926 suspected

in-country overstays, a rate of 1.15 percent of expected departures."

 

 

so those "people who know" in your singularly high minded opinion,really are not being honest and ignoring reality

 

The link you cited goes to a study that has been widely discredited because it doesn't comport with other independent studies having to do with factors like school attendance and economic surveys. If there were that many there things like school enrolment figures would pick it up. They don't.

And as for your contention that the somehow there's a contradiction between 600,000 entering illegally every year and their population staying stable...let me ask you. If you live on a cul-de-sac do cars only enter and never leave? If water flows into a lake, does that lake eventually overflow and flood? Or is it that cars that enter the cul-de-sac also can leave it by the same road that they followed in? And that water that flows into a lake also exits by way of a stream? And it not also a fact, that illegal immigrants can and do leave the United States?

[roobaa01]

well i wish to highlight 2 wall projets with give utmost success to the 2 muslim countries in keeping illegal immigration near 0

 

1. saudi arabia thousands of miles of wall perimeters with electronic fence and mine fields , shooting orders

 

2. turkeys wall to syria with shooting orders, mine fields

 

none of those dude dem politcians ever made a noise about, thus i think the us would improve its security by having the same.

 

wbr

roobaa01

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, roobaa01 said:

well i wish to highlight 2 wall projets with give utmost success to the 2 muslim countries in keeping illegal immigration near 0

 

1. saudi arabia thousands of miles of wall perimeters with electronic fence and mine fields , shooting orders

 

2. turkeys wall to syria with shooting orders, mine fields

 

none of those dude dem politcians ever made a noise about, thus i think the us would improve its security by having the same.

 

wbr

roobaa01

I'm not at all surprised that a Trump supporter would look to Saudi Arabia and Turkey for guidance.

[roobaa01]

4 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

I'm not at all surprised that a Trump supporter would look to Saudi Arabia and Turkey for guidance.

i look to israel for guidance pertaining security, walls etc.

wbr

roobaa01

[Jingthing]

25 minutes ago, roobaa01 said:

i look to israel for guidance pertaining security, walls etc.

wbr

roobaa01

Why would you? The reasons for barriers in Israel are entirely different than on the U.S. - Mexico border. 

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, roobaa01 said:

i look to israel for guidance pertaining security, walls etc.

wbr

roobaa01

Then I guess the USA is going to have to institute military conscription to get enough soldiers to patrol those walls..

[Ahab]

7 hours ago, smotherb said:

No, I believe it was fingers on keyboard; so you typed it, you did not write it. Saying. "Trump is not advocating a border wall along the entire border," really does not convince me the wall is warranted. So, what stops them from coming in where there is no wall?

So we disagree. In places where the wall has been built (e.g. San Diego, El Paso, etc.) illegal crossings from Mexico to the US have decreased by 95%. These are not my numbers but are from the border patrol/immigration service. Everyone knows that walls work, that is why people have them around their houses and properties. We could continue to quibble on endlessly about how effective more border wall would be, but there is little doubt by the people who are responsible for patrolling the border and enforcing US immigration laws on a daily basis that walls/barriers are effective in certain locations.  

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

So we disagree. In places where the wall has been built (e.g. San Diego, El Paso, etc.) illegal crossings from Mexico to the US have decreased by 95%. These are not my numbers but are from the border patrol/immigration service. Everyone knows that walls work, that is why people have them around their houses and properties. We could continue to quibble on endlessly about how effective more border wall would be, but there is little doubt by the people who are responsible for patrolling the border and enforcing US immigration laws on a daily basis that walls/barriers are effective in certain locations.  

And those walls are heavily policed because they are in highly populated areas. Staffing the entire wall like that would be prohibitively expensive.

[Credo]

7 hours ago, roobaa01 said:

well i wish to highlight 2 wall projets with give utmost success to the 2 muslim countries in keeping illegal immigration near 0

 

1. saudi arabia thousands of miles of wall perimeters with electronic fence and mine fields , shooting orders

 

2. turkeys wall to syria with shooting orders, mine fields

 

none of those dude dem politcians ever made a noise about, thus i think the us would improve its security by having the same.

 

wbr

roobaa01

So, please explain how well that wall between Turkey and Syria worked?   Does that mean that the thousands and thousands of people who fled Syria and ended up in Turkey and all over Europe are imaginary?    

 

You might want to a better wall, but then there are none, but keep looking.   

 

[ballpoint]

This must indeed be a great wall.  It hasn't even been built yet and it's already casting a shadow over the whole country.  He'd do better to build it right down the middle of the US though, because it's already proved far more effective at dividing America than it ever will be as a security measure.

[smotherb]

On 1/18/2019 at 9:48 AM, mcambl61 said:

Uh, wait, you say what stops them from coming in where there is no wall, while stating that the wall is not warranted. 

 

Certainly there are parts where terrain is the naturally occurring obstacle to crossing the border, that is the point, an obstacle. 

 

Yes the administration should clearly define it and provide a list of the priority areas where it is needed the most. 

 

so here is more proof a proper barrier WORKS:

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-mexico-wall/where-are-border-barriers-in-place/

 

Nearly half of all border apprehensions occur near the southernmost tip of Texas.

The area, known as the Rio Grande Valley Border Patrol Sector, accounted for 45 percentof all apprehensions in fiscal 2017. From 1998 to 2012, most apprehensions occurred near Tucson

Nearly half of all border apprehensions occur near the southernmost tip of Texas.

The area, known as the Rio Grande Valley Border Patrol Sector, accounted for 45 percent of all apprehensions in fiscal 2017. From 1998 to 2012, most apprehensions occurred near Tucson, Arizona. Much of Arizona’s southern border is now fenced off. That has significantly reduced crossings there but led to increased crossings further east, in Texas.

Apprehensions At U.S. Border Patrol Sectors in Fiscal 2017

Source: U.S. Customs and Border Protection

, Arizona. Much of Arizona’s southern border is now fenced off. That has significantly reduced crossings there but led to increased crossings further east, in Texas.

Apprehensions At U.S. Border Patrol Sectors in Fiscal 2017

Source: U.S. Customs and Border Protection

Not quite sure of your logic. For wall proponents, the idea is the wall is to provide a physical barrier that will help deter illegal border crossings. So, if you do not build a wall along the entire border; there will be areas of no physical barriers to illegal entry.

 

However, you seem to have forgotten that people with a purpose can be very resourceful and bridging and/or circumventing a physical barrier is rather simple; especially when you consider the US has 95 thousand miles of shoreline in addition to vast airspace which could be used to illegally enter. 

 

You also seem to have forgotten that, based on US Customs and Border Patrol sources,  illegal entries have decreased dramatically in the last 18 years;  mostly as a result of better management of the problem, "That’s a 76 percent decline in the number of apprehensions between the peak in 2000 and 2018."  https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/  In fact, we have fewer illegal entries than we had in the early 70's.

 

I posit continued better management and better use of technology is the best method to curtail illegal immigration.

  

[smotherb]

On 1/18/2019 at 4:44 PM, Ahab said:

So we disagree. In places where the wall has been built (e.g. San Diego, El Paso, etc.) illegal crossings from Mexico to the US have decreased by 95%. These are not my numbers but are from the border patrol/immigration service. Everyone knows that walls work, that is why people have them around their houses and properties. We could continue to quibble on endlessly about how effective more border wall would be, but there is little doubt by the people who are responsible for patrolling the border and enforcing US immigration laws on a daily basis that walls/barriers are effective in certain locations.  

Really, you are impressed with fewer people busting through a wall than going around it. Since you did not cite your sources, let's do a fact check. It seems claims of 90-95% decline in border crossing where there is a wall is unsubstantiated--https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/border-traffic-drop-barriers/

 

Using https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/border-traffic-drop-barriers/ it says, "The overall trend along the southern border has broadly been one of declining apprehensions, regardless of fencing or barriers in various sectors. The only section that saw a net increase in border apprehensions over the 2000-2017 time period was the Rio Grande Valley, which was also the only sector “where physical barriers have been expanded” that the RNC conveniently omitted from their “fact”. In total, border apprehensions across all sectors dropped 81% from 2000-2017:"

[wayned]

Trump just made his pitch on national TV.  He still wants 5.7 billion for 230 miles of steel fencing.  That's approximately $4700/foot or 150000 baht per foot.  The contractor must be one of his Trump Org companies.   The networks should stop televising his BS live and tape the  shows for later showing at, maybe, 0300 like they are here live.  He just doesn't get it, open the government and then negotiate .  I doubt that Pelosi will give in and the only way that he will get the wall is for him to declare a national emergency.

[Kelsall]

On 1/13/2019 at 2:05 PM, bristolboy said:

People who don't trust opinion polls say that the only polls that count are elections. The Republicans ran their midterm campaign based on the threat posed by illegal immigration. How did that work out?

Split.  Lost the House, won the Senate.

[mcambl61]

6 hours ago, smotherb said:

Not quite sure of your logic. For wall proponents, the idea is the wall is to provide a physical barrier that will help deter illegal border crossings. So, if you do not build a wall along the entire border; there will be areas of no physical barriers to illegal entry.

 

However, you seem to have forgotten that people with a purpose can be very resourceful and bridging and/or circumventing a physical barrier is rather simple; especially when you consider the US has 95 thousand miles of shoreline in addition to vast airspace which could be used to illegally enter. 

 

You also seem to have forgotten that, based on US Customs and Border Patrol sources,  illegal entries have decreased dramatically in the last 18 years;  mostly as a result of better management of the problem, "That’s a 76 percent decline in the number of apprehensions between the peak in 2000 and 2018."  https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/  In fact, we have fewer illegal entries than we had in the early 70's.

 

I posit continued better management and better use of technology is the best method to curtail illegal immigration.

  

There are areas where the terrain is too severe to cross, so a barrier is not needed. what is not being conveyed by either side of the debate is precisely

what parts are not protected where pedestrian or vehicle traffic can still cross, most of it is in Texas. Add to that what parts are private land and which land owners

agree to install a barrier and which ones do not. 

 

As far as your "logic" that there are less apprehensions, so you think there is no problem. There simply has to be a better deterrent to illegal crossings and to visa overstays.

how much longer do citizens have to tolerate illegal immigration at the scale it has become with most REALISTIC estimates at almost 20 million illegals in the country?

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0201193

 

It is insane to keep allowing this to continue. We have a backlog of over 900k immigration cases waiting for hearings for people crossing illegally, and you think there is no problem?

 

And I have never heard one single explanation of this "better management and technology" argument/solution with what does it mean and what data shows it will work.

Do you have this or are you just saying it because you do not want any improvements or additional barriers?

 

[wayned]

Why not a floating wall down the center of the Rio Grande with a mined submarine fence below it secured to the river bed!

[smotherb]

15 hours ago, mcambl61 said:

There are areas where the terrain is too severe to cross, so a barrier is not needed. what is not being conveyed by either side of the debate is precisely

what parts are not protected where pedestrian or vehicle traffic can still cross, most of it is in Texas. Add to that what parts are private land and which land owners

agree to install a barrier and which ones do not. 

 

As far as your "logic" that there are less apprehensions, so you think there is no problem. There simply has to be a better deterrent to illegal crossings and to visa overstays.

how much longer do citizens have to tolerate illegal immigration at the scale it has become with most REALISTIC estimates at almost 20 million illegals in the country?

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0201193

 

It is insane to keep allowing this to continue. We have a backlog of over 900k immigration cases waiting for hearings for people crossing illegally, and you think there is no problem?

 

And I have never heard one single explanation of this "better management and technology" argument/solution with what does it mean and what data shows it will work.

Do you have this or are you just saying it because you do not want any improvements or additional barriers?

 

What part of the fact that illegal alien entry has drastically declined and that no physical barrier will stop all people do you not understand?  We have the skills and the technology to solve this problem, if we had anyone smart enough to manage it in charge.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 4:56 PM, sendintheclowns said:

Building a wall, literally, in this day and age is medieval (to quote Trump). Sometimes I wonder if he is into the concept of a Kingdom of America, which is also medieval thinking. I suggest something hi-tech,. along the lines of  Revenge of the Machines type technology - 1,000 drones - each patrolling 2 miles of border, ought to do the job; the cost will be considerably lower, creating hi tech jobs for Americans and businesses.  equipped with heat seeking sonic death rays.                            If the US would only change that silly/xenophobic rule......Arnold for President, I say. ???? 

Sooooo, you think the Israelis are medieval. They have one and they like it. It certainly works for them.

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, smotherb said:

What part of the fact that illegal alien entry has drastically declined and that no physical barrier will stop all people do you not understand?  We have the skills and the technology to solve this problem, if we had anyone smart enough to manage it in charge.

which does not mean that illegal alien entry will not increase in the future.

No wall in history has ever stopped SOME people crossing, and there always has to be a human element behind it to make it effective. A wall is like having a lock on your front door- it won't actually stop any one entering if they want to, but it is a deterrent, and slows them down so defenders can react.

IMO, had the great one wanted a wall, everyone currently opposed would have been praising him for his "cleverness" and all for it. Haven't the Dems supported a wall in the past?

This, IMO, is purely and simply an anti Trump thing by the "resistance". If the angel Gabriel came down and said God was going to construct a wall for free in 6 days and nights as long as Trump was to take the credit, the same opposition would be opposing still. TDS much?

[Becker]

25 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sooooo, you think the Israelis are medieval. They have one and they like it. It certainly works for them.

I have educated you on this before but see the need to do it yet again as you unsurprisingly didn't learn from it. Now, pay attention thaibeachlovers!

Israeli barrier: 440 mi on mostly flat terrain guarded by conscripts.

Trump's folly: 1933 mi crossing mountain ranges and rivers and will have to be patrolled and maintained by a large number of persons earning real wages.

Capiche? 

[RJRS1301]

Oh the wall.Trump must think we live in prehistoric times 

Oops forget, he does not think like the rest of the civilised world

 

[EVENKEEL]

4 minutes ago, Becker said:

I have educated you on this before but see the need to do it yet again as you unsurprisingly didn't learn from it. Now, pay attention thaibeachlovers!

Israeli barrier: 440 mi on mostly flat terrain guarded by conscripts.

Trump's folly: 1933 mi crossing mountain ranges and rivers and will have to be patrolled and maintained by a large number of persons earning real wages.

Capiche? 

Wrong, 230 miles in select areas.

[RJRS1301]

Ask the Palestinians whose lands farms houses were destroyed by tat wall.Also students attempting to legally pass through it on their way to university and workers about their disrupted peaceful lives

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, Becker said:

I have educated you on this before but see the need to do it yet again as you unsurprisingly didn't learn from it. Now, pay attention thaibeachlovers!

Israeli barrier: 440 mi on mostly flat terrain guarded by conscripts.

Trump's folly: 1933 mi crossing mountain ranges and rivers and will have to be patrolled and maintained by a large number of persons earning real wages.

Capiche? 

You take too much credit on my education.

Attention: Israel- population nearly 9 million

                USA- population 327 million.

I think there is also a discrepancy of border length between the 2 countries.

 

will have to be patrolled and maintained by a large number of persons earning real wages.

???????????????

Never heard of CCTV? Cameras and a small helicopter force of guards will solve that problem in mountainous areas.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

Ask the Palestinians whose lands farms houses were destroyed by tat wall.Also students attempting to legally pass through it on their way to university and workers about their disrupted peaceful lives

True, but that has nothing to do with its effectiveness as a barrier to those that want to cross illegally into Israel, which is what my point was about.

Walls do work. Ask the Germans.