Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[dick dasterdly]

7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I read that Corbyn rejects to participate in May's Plan-B talks

unless he is given a guarantee that no-deal Brexit will not happen.

 

Can understand that he is careful, think this is more than just silly tactics,

he probably wants to ensure not being held to ransom re whatever comes out of the talks.

 

But nobody is really in a position to give such guarantee at this stage,

as far as I understand it;

the only way to ensure that no-deal is not happening is to revoke A50 or

to go back and accept May's deal.

In either case Plan-B talks are of no use.

 

 

 

Corbyn is treading on very thin ground here.  His stance may appeal to Labour MPs, but not their constituents in leave areas....

 

It's all a bit strange (as far as I can see) - as whilst Corbyn is not liked by Labour MPs, they were forced to retain him by the Labour membership?  And yet he's still trying to placate Labour MPs?

Edited January 17, 2019 by dick dasterdly

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I read that Corbyn rejects to participate in May's Plan-B talks

unless he is given a guarantee that no-deal Brexit will not happen.

 

Can understand that he is careful, think this is more than just silly tactics,

he probably wants to ensure not being held to ransom re whatever comes out of the talks.

 

But nobody is really in a position to give such guarantee at this stage,

as far as I understand it;

the only way to ensure that no-deal is not happening is to revoke A50 or

to go back and accept May's deal.

In either case Plan-B talks are of no use.

 

 

 

Yes Corbyn, the biggest brexiteer in the land won't engage in dialogue with the PM unless 'No Deal' is taken of the table, I wonder wonder who told him to say that. He is playing poker with the our countrys future.

Wouldn't the EU love not to have to worry about a no deal, it would make their life much easier and the UKs life much harder should negotiations start again.

Corbyn was asked 5 times at the weekend as to whether he would have another referendum, he refused or evaded the question everytime. Corbyn wants to to leave, but his party doesn't, with all this chaos he should be streets ahead of the Tories, not trailing like they are, why Labour don't get rid of him and the crones that surround him is a mystery.

 

 

[tebee]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

Yes Corbyn, the biggest brexiteer in the land won't engage in dialogue with the PM unless 'No Deal' is taken of the table, I wonder wonder who told him to say that. He is playing poker with the our countrys future.

Wouldn't the EU love not to have to worry about a no deal, it would make their life much easier and the UKs life much harder should negotiations start again.

Corbyn was asked 5 times at the weekend as to whether he would have another referendum, he refused or evaded the question everytime. Corbyn wants to to leave, but his party doesn't, with all this chaos he should be streets ahead of the Tories, not trailing like they are, why Labour don't get rid of him and the crones that surround him is a mystery.

 

The EU certainly doesn't want no deal, but will accept the damage rather than compromising it's principals.

 

The UK on the other hand will suffer much more from no deal.

 

No deal is Mutually Assured Destruction - Problem for the UK is it might have a few more missiles, but the EU has 20 times the landmass of the UK.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

The EU certainly doesn't want no deal, but will accept the damage rather than compromising it's principals.

 

The UK on the other hand will suffer much more from no deal.

 

No deal is Mutually Assured Destruction - Problem for the UK is it might have a few more missiles, but the EU has 20 times the landmass of the UK.

The point I was making tebee is that we cannot take a no deal off the table, it is another weapon in our armoury. It's like secreting a gun on yourself, you probably have no plans to use it, but it's there should you have to.

[cleopatra2]

29 minutes ago, vogie said:

Yes Corbyn, the biggest brexiteer in the land won't engage in dialogue with the PM unless 'No Deal' is taken of the table, I wonder wonder who told him to say that. He is playing poker with the our countrys future.

Wouldn't the EU love not to have to worry about a no deal, it would make their life much easier and the UKs life much harder should negotiations start again.

Corbyn was asked 5 times at the weekend as to whether he would have another referendum, he refused or evaded the question everytime. Corbyn wants to to leave, but his party doesn't, with all this chaos he should be streets ahead of the Tories, not trailing like they are, why Labour don't get rid of him and the crones that surround him is a mystery.

 

 

Labour's no deal position was in the manifesto. 

[Chomper Higgot]

16 minutes ago, vogie said:

The point I was making tebee is that we cannot take a no deal off the table, it is another weapon in our armoury. It's like secreting a gun on yourself, you probably have no plans to use it, but it's there should you have to.

It's only a weapon if you are prepared to pull the trigger. 

 

There are no indications that anyone, other than a rabid bunch of Brexit zealots, is willing to pull the trigger.

 

 

[tebee]

15 minutes ago, vogie said:

The point I was making tebee is that we cannot take a no deal off the table, it is another weapon in our armoury. It's like secreting a gun on yourself, you probably have no plans to use it, but it's there should you have to.

Yes, but the EU has prepared for no deal, we haven't.

 

If we shoot that gun, we'll have to fire it through our own head to hit the EU's leg.

 

Post no deal the only way we are going to avoid things getting so bad we end up with civil unrest is if the EU helps us.

 

People you've just shot in the leg will want a high price to help.

 

No deal leave us in a much worse negotiating position.  

[anon676545345]

23 minutes ago, tebee said:

The EU certainly doesn't want no deal, but will accept the damage rather than compromising it's principals.

 

The UK on the other hand will suffer much more from no deal.

 

No deal is Mutually Assured Destruction - Problem for the UK is it might have a few more missiles, but the EU has 20 times the landmass of the UK.

 

No nuclear war is mutually assured destruction, there will be literally no 'destruction' caused by a clean Brexit you'll just have to pay around 3% more for a BMW, the world will go on.

[melvinmelvin]

20 minutes ago, vogie said:

The point I was making tebee is that we cannot take a no deal off the table, it is another weapon in our armoury. It's like secreting a gun on yourself, you probably have no plans to use it, but it's there should you have to.

 

point taken,

but I can understand Corbyn wanting to be cautious,

he doesn't want to be held ransom to whatever TM does next

he doesn't trust her, for good reasons

 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

point taken,

but I can understand Corbyn wanting to be cautious,

he doesn't want to be held ransom to whatever TM does next

he doesn't trust her, for good reasons

 

But as an aside he has no problems meeting up with the IRA and Hamas, but refuses to meet up with our PM, many people would find that very odd.

[vogie]

11 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It's only a weapon if you are prepared to pull the trigger. 

 

There are no indications that anyone, other than a rabid bunch of Brexit zealots, is willing to pull the trigger.

 

 

You seem to forget that a 'No Deal' is the default option and most MPs in the house apart from the SNPs actually voted to leave the EU, it didn't say a little bit of the EU. 

But hey, it did give you a chance to get your overly biased wording "Brexit zealots" out, your day has not been totally ruined.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, superal said:

So why is that ? and why would they go against their constituents , many wanting Brexit and in the recent vote to accept TMs deal MPs went against their supporters . One example  of that ; a friend of mine was fuming a couple of days ago when his local MP for Boston & Skegness , Matt Warman , voted to accept TMs deal despite lobbying from his locals . The towns actual Brexit vote was a 75% to leave . So why did he go against his supporters ?

He will be hard pushed to retain his MP status in the next election .

Good man! Putting the interests of his constituents and country before the poorly informed mob.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Quite.

 

That is one of my main objections to the eu.

If you against everyone he makes more than you I suspect you have a major problem!

[Chomper Higgot]

19 minutes ago, vogie said:

You seem to forget that a 'No Deal' is the default option and most MPs in the house apart from the SNPs actually voted to leave the EU, it didn't say a little bit of the EU. 

But hey, it did give you a chance to get your overly biased wording "Brexit zealots" out, your day has not been totally ruined.

I doubt even you believe a no deal will happen.

 

The term 'Brexit Zealots' adequately describes those who want Brexit at any cost. 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

Mine too. If they were fully accountable to the electorate & able to balance their books per annum we may never have wanted to leave.

Then you have been misled. There is truth in what you say but you massively overstate the position 

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

But it's not only that - their salaries/expenses etc. should reflect those for their equivalent in each individual eu country IMO.  They and their civil servants are paid way too much.

 

And as for moving the whole bureaucratic process from one place to another every few months???

 

They clearly have no problem wasting taxpayer money - and no intention of changing their wasteful practices.....

List the salaries you are unhappy with! Compare with head of UK's Motability!

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Corbyn is treading on very thin ground here.  His stance may appeal to Labour MPs, but not their constituents in leave areas....

 

It's all a bit strange (as far as I can see) - as whilst Corbyn is not liked by Labour MPs, they were forced to retain him by the Labour membership?  And yet he's still trying to placate Labour MPs?

78% of Labour members want another referendum. 

 

Only fools want a no deal Brexit and they will be ignored by most MPs and encouraged by a few right wing bastards who see a way to make money out of them.

[Grouse]

51 minutes ago, Chartist said:

 

No nuclear war is mutually assured destruction, there will be literally no 'destruction' caused by a clean Brexit you'll just have to pay around 3% more for a BMW, the world will go on.

Silly response. I suspect that you do not understand enough to comment rationally.

[luckyluke]

I am Belgian/European.

 

Since a while I remark, here and on other fora, the hostility ( if not hate ) of some Brexiters towards the European Union leaders.

 

It won't take long ( if not already there ) this will revert to Europe, and by extension the Europeans.

 

This agressif feeling is not there in Europe ( for the moment );

at least not really noticeable.

 

However if something will altered ( due to Brexit ) the wellness of the Europeans,  I am afraid that, some/a lot,  will show also some kind of aversion towards The United Kingdom and his citizens ( not only the Leavers ).

 

Scary.

[Loiner]

 
there will be literally no 'destruction' caused by a clean Brexit you'll just have to pay around 3% more for a BMW, the world will go on.

Totally acceptable impact of Brexit, in fact I would move into the ‘Pluses’ Column. We need to even out the balance of payments here.
Other additional extra costs should come from new punitive taxes for Land Rovers imported from the EU too. Let’s face it, all British products which have shifted manufacture to the EU should have special import duties placed upon them. Cars, chocolate bars, HP sauce, the lot.


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[Snow Leopard]

11 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Totally acceptable impact of Brexit, in fact I would move into the ‘Pluses’ Column. We need to even out the balance of payments here.
Other additional extra costs should come from new punitive taxes for Land Rovers imported from the EU too. Let’s face it, all British products which have shifted manufacture to the EU should have special import duties placed upon them. Cars, chocolate bars, HP sauce, the lot.


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1

I am confused why anyone would think this. Everyone talks about a No Deal Brexit like its a disaster. It isn't. There is no requirement for the UK Government to apply import tariffs or entry restrictions on the EU or any EU Citizen.

 

We don't have to do any tit for tat restrictions the EU imposes. I am sure that level heads will prevail and the only EU paymaster left in the ring Germany would be okay with that. 

 

The UK doesn't need to deal with the whole EU, It only needs to do a deal with Germany. That's it. The rest don't matter.  

[melvinmelvin]

guys,

stop pissing into the past - look ahead

What should Blighty do now?

 

may-deal disappeared in the loo (pt)

TM survived the non conf  (alas in my view)

 

Yesterday Barnier said that it might be possible to go back an alter the deal.

France and Germany sent unofficial signals that they might agree to push the Brexit date to March 2020.

 

new scenarios and new possibilities may creep above the horizon

 

what agendas should be set?

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

But as an aside he has no problems meeting up with the IRA and Hamas, but refuses to meet up with our PM, many people would find that very odd.

yes, I think you are right in saying that many will find that odd

 

however, I don't find it particularly odd,

after meeting with Hamas and/or IRA they are not likely to come after you and destroy your political life in London

 

TM might do just that, she is not a nice lady.

 

[vogie]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I doubt even you believe a no deal will happen.

 

The term 'Brexit Zealots' adequately describes those who want Brexit at any cost. 

If Parliament doesn't know whats happening, how do you expect anybody else to make an informed prophecy of the outcome of brexit. What I do know that there are only 72 days left before B day, but out of the 72 days MPs will only be sitting in Parliament for only 37 days, tick tock, tick tock.

 

As for your term Brexit zealots, you do appear to label other people that don't share your views with some sort of a derogatory name, very childish and totally uncalled for.

 

[tebee]

36 minutes ago, Snow Leopard said:

I am confused why anyone would think this. Everyone talks about a No Deal Brexit like its a disaster. It isn't. There is no requirement for the UK Government to apply import tariffs or entry restrictions on the EU or any EU Citizen.

 

We don't have to do any tit for tat restrictions the EU imposes. I am sure that level heads will prevail and the only EU paymaster left in the ring Germany would be okay with that. 

 

The UK doesn't need to deal with the whole EU, It only needs to do a deal with Germany. That's it. The rest don't matter.  

It's not the tariffs that will cause the no deal disaster.

 

It's paperwork and regulations.

 

Every shipment in and out of the country will need a customs declaration. That and the load itself need to be checked at the ports on both sides.

 

No British firms can do any sort of work in Europe that requires any sort of certification because there is no longer any mutual recognition of such certification. 

 

So manufacturing is crucified by transport delays and   services by red tape - British exports to the EU devastated, peoples jobs destroyed.

 

This is what the transition period was supposed to give us time to sort out. 

 

You can't do a deal just with Germany - if countries could do individual deals like that, why would we need to leave the EU to do them ourselves?

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

Totally acceptable impact of Brexit, in fact I would move into the ‘Pluses’ Column. We need to even out the balance of payments here.
Other additional extra costs should come from new punitive taxes for Land Rovers imported from the EU too. Let’s face it, all British products which have shifted manufacture to the EU should have special import duties placed upon them. Cars, chocolate bars, HP sauce, the lot.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

My goodness there are some silly misguided people out there! And Brexiters want to be taken seriously?????

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Snow Leopard said:

I am confused why anyone would think this. Everyone talks about a No Deal Brexit like its a disaster. It isn't. There is no requirement for the UK Government to apply import tariffs or entry restrictions on the EU or any EU Citizen.

 

We don't have to do any tit for tat restrictions the EU imposes. I am sure that level heads will prevail and the only EU paymaster left in the ring Germany would be okay with that. 

 

The UK doesn't need to deal with the whole EU, It only needs to do a deal with Germany. That's it. The rest don't matter.  

We should have single market for services.

 

For goods we need long term investment to boost productivity just as the Japanese have done in the automotive sector

 

pity we don't have a proper government of technocrats

[elliss]

11 hours ago, tebee said:

So after this resounding victory for May - 

 

Are we all going to get behind her and accept her plan?

   Is there another option ?. 

  JC is a non starter , you  have been warned.

Edited January 17, 2019 by elliss

[Snow Leopard]

46 minutes ago, tebee said:

It's not the tariffs that will cause the no deal disaster.

 

It's paperwork and regulations.

 

Every shipment in and out of the country will need a customs declaration. That and the load itself need to be checked at the ports on both sides.

 

No British firms can do any sort of work in Europe that requires any sort of certification because there is no longer any mutual recognition of such certification. 

 

So manufacturing is crucified by transport delays and   services by red tape - British exports to the EU devastated, peoples jobs destroyed.

 

This is what the transition period was supposed to give us time to sort out. 

 

You can't do a deal just with Germany - if countries could do individual deals like that, why would we need to leave the EU to do them ourselves?

I meant do the deal with Germany because if Germany okays it so will all the other EU countries. 

 

Also just agree to use EU certification. We are already doing it. 

[nontabury]

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

I think that is the point I was making in my post above, but I probably worded it badly?

 

MPs know they are in between a rock and a hard place.  The vast majority support remain, but (particularly) those in leave constituencies know that they are likely to lose their seats if they obviously continue to support remain.  And they well know that May and the eu's deal was 'leave in name only'.  More importantly, they also realise that their constituents know this!

 

From what you've said, it sounds as if Matt Warman is determined to ignore his constituents and prepared to accept the consequences, i.e. losing his seat.

With a majority of nearly 16,000 in 2017, Warman knows he’s fairly safe. As the majority of his constituents, will support him,against Labour.

Though he needs to be aware of UKIP, which in 2015 got to within 4.000, thanks to many Conservative and Labour voters switching to UKIP.

However since 2015, Nigel Farage and others have left UKIP, so perhaps not such a threat to him.

 Fairly similar to Yorkshire where the majority voted to leave, only to see most of the Labour M.P.’s go against their constituents. This was emphasized again this week, when a poll in Yorkshire of 60,000+ Resulting in 60%+ declaring their wish for a clean break Brexit.

Edited January 17, 2019 by nontabury