New financial regulations for retirees: Nearly a third of expats may have to leave - but half on Facebook say they're off!

[Kwasaki]

On 2/4/2019 at 11:37 AM, spidermike007 said:

Rather they seem to be tightening the noose, every chance they get. To call them ignorant, fearful, xenophobic, non-visionary, and misguided would be a vast understatement. Biggest Joke said he would make things easier and simpler.

Yeah but there in charge and if several of them have had wives and girlfriends leave them for a farangie they've got the hump did you consider that. ????

[CMNightRider]

2 hours ago, mania said:

 

Anyone who does not see this coming full throttle is blind

 

It is next on the list- Possibly for Tourists but surely for expats

I know many will say it is more important for tourists & I agree, but Thailand will not kill the golden goose they prefer.

The spend & leave groups will not be touched at least initially

 

But expats? It will surely be a requirement shortly as part of any visa extension

 

 

I agree, health insurance will be the next hurdle immigration is getting ready to place on expats.  There are a lot of expats well in their 70's, 80's, and even 90's who can afford health care here but will be unable to pay for some over the top worthless Thai insurance policy.  

 

Immigration will keep placing hurdles in front of expats until they get rid of the western retirees.  In a couple of years, the retired expat will be viewed as being on the brink of extinction in Thailand.  Ray Charles could have seen this one coming ????      

[GinBoy2]

27 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

I agree, health insurance will be the next hurdle immigration is getting ready to place on expats.  There are a lot of expats well in their 70's, 80's, and even 90's who can afford health care here but will be unable to pay for some over the top worthless Thai insurance policy.  

 

Immigration will keep placing hurdles in front of expats until they get rid of the western retirees.  In a couple of years, the retired expat will be viewed as being on the brink of extinction in Thailand.  Ray Charles could have seen this one coming ????      

I watched my BUPA policy ratchet up every year as I got older.

A lot of guys go into denial, but if you live in Nakon Wherever, the government hospitals are basically filled with quacks, and if you go in, you're likely already dead.

So if you intend to actually survive a hospital trip, you need to go to a private hospital....assuming you can survive on the trip.

As our resident health expert @Sheryl has often said, anything less than a ฿5M policy is basically worthless in the private hospital realm.

 

I don't know where this goes, but it's coming for sure

 

As an example I have a real life experience. So

I'm in Taiwan at work, my wife calls on Monday to say she pain in her abdomen. Goes to the local hospital. Usual response a bag  of pills.

 

By Thursday after a couple more trips to the 'hospital' and more pills, she cant even stand up.

The 'doctors' had never even laid a hand on her to examine her, just dished out pills

I'm flying home, told her to get to the nearest RAM. By the time I get home she's in surgery have a belly load of pus removed from a ruptured fallopian cyst.

 

 

There is a reason private hospital insurance is important in Thailand!

Edited February 6, 2019 by GinBoy2

[SkyNets]

Wait until you're required to have a heath insurance certificate too lol

[Andrew Dwyer]

Wait until you're required to have a heath insurance certificate too lol

Sounds like another job for the agents !! [emoji51]

[whitemouse]

On 2/4/2019 at 11:20 AM, HuaHinHim said:

Well to be honest I have been trying to leave for about 5 years but can’t sell the house so i’m stuck and i’m Not going to give it away so I am force to stay at the moment 

 

I know several retired expats who's only reason to remain in the country is not able to sell their condos. The moment condo sells its bye bye Thailand.

Few friends have been trying to leave way before these new financial regulations, weak £ and weak $ mainly. Another big reason,  at their age health insurance is difficult or impossible, they just want to go back West. Unfortunately their only investment is house or condo, and as you said, they don't wish to give it away. So they are waiting to sell. 

[Neeranam]

12 minutes ago, whitemouse said:

 

I know several retired expats who's only reason to remain in the country is not able to sell their condos. The moment condo sells its bye bye Thailand.

Few friends have been trying to leave way before these new financial regulations, weak £ and weak $ mainly. Another big reason,  at their age health insurance is difficult or impossible, they just want to go back West. Unfortunately their only investment is house or condo, and as you said, they don't wish to give it away. So they are waiting to sell. 

They should rent.

[WildBillHiccup]

What an absolute God-Damn-Awful-Dog's-Dinner this is, eh?

I am fortunate and have enough funds to meet requirements.

The next twist of the arm will be Compulsory Medical Insurance

- but I am 71, so at what premium would my payments be? 

• Here is a note to 'some' that post comments on here:

1. Be very careful not to post comments that "I'm Alright Jack!"

and that you appear to be gloating in a 'schadenfreude' fashion

at the (obvious) misfortune of others'

2. Be very careful not to drink 'one-too-many' in a bar and start to

spout any imbecilic advice - at the Top of You Voice.

Although Pattaya does have some Top Class Dentistry.

Meanwhile, I am in a melancholy mood.

Everybody now 1 - 2 - 3 .. .. ..

 

 

[WildBillHiccup]

Also, Google has some excellent statistical information

on the "Expulsion of Asians from Uganda" in 1972.

I worked with a young Ugandan Asian back then.

The UK Government found his family a place to live - and

they also found him a job, too - until he 'found his feet'.

[Vacuum]

On 2/4/2019 at 7:31 AM, jensmann said:

not the thai officials cause the problem. it's the farang not following the rules, using illegal agents

Is this not what they want (the IOs).? They can't get 'extra money' by fining people on the roads, like the police can. This agent thing is a way for them to make this 'extra money' and they like it.

[HHTel]

3 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

 

Nope. In effect and going strong. My friend just got a permanent residency permit using it. Last month. He has a business in Thailand, and has the expertise that the Thai government deems necessary to qualify for the permit.

 

The U.S.-Thai Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations of 1833, commonly referred to as the Treaty of Amity, is a special economic relationship between the United States of America and the Kingdom of Thailand that give special rights and benefits to U.S. citizens who wish to establish their businesses in Thailand. The Treaty of Amity treaty was amended in 1966 and provides two major benefits: 

• American companies are permitted to maintain a majority shareholding or to wholly own its company, branch office or representative office located in Thailand. 
• American companies receive national treatment, meaning U.S. firms may engage in business on the same basis as Thai companies, and are exempt from most of the restrictions on foreign investment imposed by the Alien Business Law of 1972.

https://2016.export.gov/thailand/treaty/index.asp

Sorry but I was reading various reports thus:

Quote

In 2003 the Thai Government announced that the Treaty would be rescinded as part of the negotiations for a bilateral trade treaty between the US and Thailand. These negotiations became deadlocked and were discontinued.  In 2008 the Thai Government announced that it wished to resume negotiations but to date those negotiations have not been resumed.

 

Quote

The Kingdom of Thailand and the United States of America, desirous of promoting friendly relations traditionally existing between them and of encouraging mutually beneficial trade and closer economic and cultural intercourse between their peoples, have resolved to conclude a Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations, and for that purpose have appointed as their Plenipotentiaries:

 

One source: https://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/amity-treaty-between-thailand-and-the-us.html

[roger buttmore]

On 2/4/2019 at 2:31 PM, jensmann said:

hey, not the thai officials cause the problem. it's the farang not following the rules, using illegal agents etc. causing a reaction by the authorities.
who is using his own money for 3 month can also use it for 5. not a big change.
illegal out - honest in !

 

People lying with their affidavits and embassies failing to verify is why the Immigration Bureau have made the changes.

 

The farang and their embassies could not be trusted so they've taken it into their own hands, also taking the opportunity to make changes to weed out disreputable agencies while they're about it.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, roger buttmore said:

 

People lying with their affidavits and embassies failing to verify is why the Immigration Bureau have made the changes.

 

The farang and their embassies could not be trusted so they've taken it into their own hands, also taking the opportunity to make changes to weed out disreputable agencies while they're about it.

If that's the case, it didn't work. The corruption food chain has already adjusted and the fees will be much higher. 

[stanleycoin]

17 minutes ago, roger buttmore said:

 

People lying with their affidavits and embassies failing to verify is why the Immigration Bureau have made the changes.

 

The farang and their embassies could not be trusted so they've taken it into their own hands, also taking the opportunity to make changes to weed out disreputable agencies while they're about it.

you mean trying to cut out the middle man. 

 

[kuma]

1 hour ago, roger buttmore said:

 

People lying with their affidavits and embassies failing to verify is why the Immigration Bureau have made the changes.

 

The farang and their embassies could not be trusted so they've taken it into their own hands, also taking the opportunity to make changes to weed out disreputable agencies while they're about it.

As per this companion thread on TV, things have just got even more complicated / expensive - if confirmed.

 

 

[JHolmesJr]

On 2/4/2019 at 12:38 PM, from the home of CC said:

leavers and stayers - sound familiar?

with so much pussy in the mix, I believe it will be the opposite of the brexit vote

[Odysseus123]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

If that's the case, it didn't work. The corruption food chain has already adjusted and the fees will be much higher. 

Quite-and the rules even more arbitrary.

 

The corruption food chain has been "streamlined" so to speak..

[nong38]

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 11:40 AM, keith101 said:

These new rules will hurt the Thai economy if almost half leave unless they change to a spousal visa if they are married of course .                                 The Thai Baht is another major factor in how people can survive here and only the Government can step in and bring it back out of its inflated state wich will also improve exports as we all know the weaker the baht the more other countries can import just common sense instead of greed .

The strength of the baht seems to be a sense of National Pride, the higher the better without really understanding what it really means. Then there is the alternative view, the ones who are rich enough to travel abroad can do so and enjoy a great exchange rate so I guess a lot of it is about greed for the ones at the top of the pile, a sad reflection on the way Thais treat each other when money/wealth appear.

[ivorsmile]

So it seems to me that if you have monetary requirements to satisfy the rules, you are a good person, but if you get an extension by other means because you can't meet the requirements alone, then your deemed to be an undesirable because you can't fulfill these requirements. The 90 year old that I presume has lived in Thailand for, must be quite a long time, because he has probably used agents for years, he is now deemed to be undesirable and therefore must be of bad character. I can't meet the Thai requirements, but only because over the years I used my disposable income to support my Thai extended family, who when I met them were extremely poor and I spent 15+ years of most of my income, when I was working paying to build as best a decent life for them as I could, including paying vast amounts on hospital bills for 4 members of the family, who without some ones help, two would probably be deceased now. If I'd been a self centered tight so and so. I would not be writing this comment now and would be financially, cash wise, fairly well off to the tune of around 5 mil Baht, plus my 26,000 a month pension that I now get, but I accept my predicament and have the satisfaction that four people two of which would of been deceased now, are thriving, have a small business.  

[bkkcanuck8]

7 minutes ago, ivorsmile said:

So it seems to me that if you have monetary requirements to satisfy the rules, you are a good person, but if you get an extension by other means because you can't meet the requirements alone, then your deemed to be an undesirable because you can't fulfill these requirements.

If do not meet the requirements and you use other means -- means that you are committing immigration fraud...  and to many ... that would not mean you are a good person. 

 

A country sets their immigration rules to serve the country as they see it... not anyone that decides they want to live there.  At a certain point if you don't set standards you really are saying that Thailand should just have open borders.  The fact that what Thailand sees as in their interest and the bar they set before they feel it worth it to let in people to "temporarily" reside... if they feel it is not in there interest to let paupers in... why should they... just because a few snowflakes feel they are entitled?  Yes, there will always be exceptions to the rule, but that is not immigration's responsibility. 

[kuma]

31 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

If do not meet the requirements and you use other means -- means that you are committing immigration fraud...  and to many ... that would not mean you are a good person. 

 

A country sets their immigration rules to serve the country as they see it... not anyone that decides they want to live there.  At a certain point if you don't set standards you really are saying that Thailand should just have open borders.  The fact that what Thailand sees as in their interest and the bar they set before they feel it worth it to let in people to "temporarily" reside... if they feel it is not in there interest to let paupers in... why should they... just because a few snowflakes feel they are entitled?  Yes, there will always be exceptions to the rule, but that is not immigration's responsibility. 

Grandfather clauses are frequently used in these types of situations by Governments, their agencies and private businesses all over the world - and a case by case review for the aggrieved to see if they should qualify for such relief would be warranted here - for instance in the case put forward in post #748. If they were deemed to qualify, then the burden could be reduced.

Paupers, snowflakes - who's the real flake, sitting spouting off behind his keyboard. Who says you are not a f$#%# pauper - probably everyone with one more dollar than you says so, if they are all as ignorant as you.

[bkkcanuck8]

9 minutes ago, kuma said:

Grandfather clauses are frequently used in these types of situations by Governments, their agencies and private businesses all over the world - and a case by case review for the aggrieved to see if they should qualify for such relief would be warranted here - for instance in the case put forward in post #748. If they were deemed to qualify, then the burden could be reduced.

Paupers, snowflakes - who's the real flake, sitting spouting off behind his keyboard. Who says you are not a f$#%# pauper - probably everyone with one more dollar than you says so, if they are all as ignorant as you.

 

The simple fact is that if you are to be treated as a resident -- there is a process (extremely restrictive process not open to those over 65 I believe - like most countries) called Permanent Residency.  The visa that most of us have is a TEMPORARY visa (1 year for those that are qualified). That is what people applied for, that is what has been approved (some legitimately, some not).  Whether you are here for 3 months, or 30 years... the same thing applies... you have been approved for temporary stay for 1 year IF you qualify.   If you commit immigration fraud and you are caught (or they make it so you can't anymore), then your visa is void and null and it should be no surprise that any country would tell you to leave (if they are nice) or deport you (if they don't feel nice).  If you committed fraud then you should be deported.  The fact that they were lax in the last should not give you any comfort that things will not change and there will be amnesty.  Simply put, a TEMPORARY visa does not give you any rights!  You are a guest at best, and if you become an unwanted guest you are told to leave.  If you want to be entitled to stay here the process that is horrifically difficult is available -- the fact that is difficult should give you a good indication of where you have always stood.  You are allowed to stay here as long as you qualify.  Grandfathering typically comes into play when there was some understanding of an existing contract (i.e. permanency where you were approved).  This is a temporary visa and you qualify or are approved annually on whatever regulations exist at that time.   If I visit a country X as a "guest" (non-permanent) 10 years ago, does not mean they should extend those same qualifications now if those qualifications have changed.  I don't know many companies that say that because you rented something 30 years ago for $1 that today you can rent that item for $1 while others rent it at $5 now (aka grandfathering a temporary agreement).

 

[lamyai3]

5 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

The fact that what Thailand sees as in their interest and the bar they set before they feel it worth it to let in people to "temporarily" reside... if they feel it is not in there interest to let paupers in... why should they... just because a few snowflakes feel they are entitled?  Yes, there will always be exceptions to the rule, but that is not immigration's responsibility. 

As a Canuck I hope you realise that you yourself are presently one of the entitled ones, given that your embassy is still issuing income letters?

 

People who are objecting to the recent changes are neither paupers nor entitled snowflakes, they just object to an overhaul of the rules weighted so heavily in favour of immigration and the Thai banks. I'm surprised more people aren't able to see past the faux honourable motives of immigration, who've actually admitted to being retributive in their policies in the past (2014 for instance). It's no secret that the embassies who've been penalised are those of countries who have been very vocal in their criticism of junta rule, with the UK adding insult to injury by granting the fugitive ex-PM a ten years visa last May. 

[bkkcanuck8]

6 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

As a Canuck I hope you realise that you yourself are presently one of the entitled ones, given that your embassy is still issuing income letters?

 

People who are objecting to the recent changes are neither paupers nor entitled snowflakes, they just object to an overhaul of the rules weighted so heavily in favour of immigration and the Thai banks. I'm surprised more people aren't able to see past the faux honourable motives of immigration, who've actually admitted to being retributive in their policies in the past (2014 for instance). It's no secret that the embassies who've been penalised are those of countries who have been very vocal in their criticism of junta rule, with the UK adding insult to injury by granting the fugitive ex-PM a ten years visa last May. 

I would not know if it is issuing letters or not... since I am not drawing CPP and I am not going to swear to something that is not true.   I am suspicious when people state it is at the behest of Thai Banks.  In the old days (in North America) it was an advantage with regards to having deposits as a cheap source of funds for mortgages etc, but the industry has changed and mortgages are more likely to be securitized and not really dependent on cash deposits.  I suspect it has more to do with making sure that people who say they have income actually do to meet the needs.   I do not rely on that route since I actually spend considerably less... so the amount on deposit in a Thai Bank is now considerably more than required.   Those countries that have withdrawn the letters are the ones being honest that they cannot actually certify that people have the income - that the process of certification in the past was one big scam.   It would actually be better if they just codified bank accounts and had the banks submit monthly reporting on deposits as that is the only true way to certify that you are meeting the requirements.  People that say they meet the requirements but never transfer it into the country - well - that does Thailand no good if you actually don't bring in the money.

[lamyai3]

54 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

People that say they meet the requirements but never transfer it into the country - well - that does Thailand no good if you actually don't bring in the money.

This is one of the rules that has been rewritten, it was never previously necessary to transfer all the money into the country. Absurdly you can still pull the surplus out each month and repatriate it, but at what cost? Having the income is entirely different from being required to transfer it in to sit dwindling uselessly in a Thai bank account, especially where a portion of a person's financial commitments might be back in their home country. How does it work for the many who've already bought houses or condos here and live on a monthly spend of less than half the 65000? How much good does it do Thailand to push out expats who are spending substantially more than a local wage on supporting Thai families and communities here? Anyone who looks at the new rules on both income and deposit methods with more than a cursory glance will realise they're a stinker by any definition. 

 

Not sure if the Canadian embassy does income letters or sworn affidavits. For the UK, no sworn statement was necessary, rather applications were made by post or online, submitting proof of income in home country. To assume people using these methods were lying is unwarranted, the UK embassy was quite capable of indicating whether their own nationals' submitted evidence was credible or not (and they charged a hefty fee to do so), but they buckled under immigration's pressure rather than sending them back to do their own dirty work. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by lamyai3

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

SEEMS Like most posters here miss the point.

The point is the feminine way of thinking of thai authorities.

Woman tend to blame the man for all problems. so does the thai immigration, and other 

authorities. for example, in this case, the problem was agents who cheated the system

by supplying false bank statements. 

the thai solution : instead of going after the criminal agents and arrest or fine them, 

they go after the foreigners and slap them with another demand : show the money

in the bank for three months after you got your visa. 

this is so typical woman thinking, in two ways :

1. blame it on the man (AKA the farang ) 

2. get his money

the thai government can't or don't want to punish the thai agents - and corrupt immigration

officers - for their wrong doings. after all, they are blood. 

their solution is simple - make the foreigners suffer, for the crimes of other thai brothers.

that's what is so annoying in this story.

 

[HuskerDo]

12 hours ago, whitemouse said:

 

I know several retired expats who's only reason to remain in the country is not able to sell their condos. The moment condo sells its bye bye Thailand.

Few friends have been trying to leave way before these new financial regulations, weak £ and weak $ mainly. Another big reason,  at their age health insurance is difficult or impossible, they just want to go back West. Unfortunately their only investment is house or condo, and as you said, they don't wish to give it away. So they are waiting to sell. 

And then when the Baht starts to lose value the Farang army will be back right. If people chose to not plan ahead with their finances and live on a shoestring budget then they  messed up and need to go home and work another ten years. Not planning down the road for things like health insurance is silly and unfortunate. Thailand will be better off without all the slackers.

 

 

[JLCrab]

12 hours ago, ivorsmile said:

four people two of which would of been deceased now, are thriving, have a small business.  

And with their thriving business they cannot help you with a loan to get 400K into the bank for you?

[MyFriend You]

I take a different approach to this dilemna - why is it foreigners here think they are entitled to stay in Thailand without some sort of guarantee they won't be a "Public Charge".  i.e., no health insurance, accident insurance, money in the bank to live on, money in a back as a bond??  Thai's can't get a visa to the States without someone Vouching for them, and proof of money enough to live on, including student Visa's to show they won't immediately go on welfare when they arrive in the US.  Oh if you think they won't come after you if you vouch for a Thai and he/she does a runner and overstays her/his visa - think again.........you signed an affidavit to that effect.  Thats a Federal Offense.

 

So Nam Na - It's their country, their rules, love it or leave it.   If I ever decided to stay in Thailand full time??  and didn't have the money immediately to allow me to do so (which is not my problem) I'd beg, borrow or steal what I needed...........and the posters that "don't trust Thai Banks"  "Don't want to tie up money for 5 months a year"  "Have heard stories of money disapearing from Thai bank accounts"  thats just an excuse, or a cover up that they are not financially able to abide by the new Laws for them - to those folks, see the first sentence, second para this post.    

 

[MyFriend You]

6 hours ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

SEEMS Like most posters here miss the point.

The point is the feminine way of thinking of thai authorities.

Woman tend to blame the man for all problems. so does the thai immigration, and other 

authorities. for example, in this case, the problem was agents who cheated the system

by supplying false bank statements. 

the thai solution : instead of going after the criminal agents and arrest or fine them, 

they go after the foreigners and slap them with another demand : show the money

in the bank for three months after you got your visa. 

this is so typical woman thinking, in two ways :

1. blame it on the man (AKA the farang ) 

2. get his money

the thai government can't or don't want to punish the thai agents - and corrupt immigration

officers - for their wrong doings. after all, they are blood. 

their solution is simple - make the foreigners suffer, for the crimes of other thai brothers.

that's what is so annoying in this story.

 

You gonna catch hell for that one mate........but its a good analogy!!