Issue about alcoholic.

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Lacking self-control and being weak-willed is not the same thing.

 

If I am addicted to alcohol, all the will in the world will not stop me from shaking when I need a drink. 

Alcoholism is like having dioreah, all the will power in the work doesn't work.

[likerdup1]

On 5/16/2019 at 1:35 PM, Wilson Smith said:

BB More About Alcoholism, p.42 "Then they outlined the spiritual answer and program of action which a hundred of them had followed successfully.

 

You have missed my point.

 

Obviously the Big Books primary purpose is, through doing the steps, to enable alcoholics wishing to recover to find a power greater themselves. Or in other words to have a spiritual awakening. So the SOLUTION to the problem of alcoholism the AA way is to do the steps and have a spiritual awakening.

 

MY POINT is that the Big Book does not directly describe alcoholism as a spiritual problem. All you have done is shown quotes where AA says the SOLUTION is spiritual.

 

The Big Book describes alcoholism over and over as a  problem of body and mind. A physical craving coupled with a mental obsession. Starting with the Forward to the First addition.

we, of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have re-covered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book.

 

 

[Neeranam]

On 5/16/2019 at 1:35 PM, Wilson Smith said:

BB More About Alcoholism, p.42 "Then they outlined the spiritual answer and program of action which a hundred of them had followed successfully.

 

BB More About Alcoholism, p.43 Though not a religious person, I have profound respect for the spiritual approach in such cases as yours.

 

BB We Agnostics, p.47 When people presented us with spiritual approaches, how frequently did we all say, "I wish I had what that man has.)

 

BB The Doctor's Opinion, p.xxvi Though we work out our solution on the spiritual as well as an altruistic plane,

 

BB We Agnostics, p.45 That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral.

 

BB We Agnostics, p.49 We used to amuse ourselves by cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices when we might have observed that many spiritually-minded persons of all races, colors, and creeds were demonstrating a degree of stability, happiness and usefulness which we should have sought ourselves

 

BB We Agnostics, p.44 To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.

 

Absolutely, thanks for explaining to the guy. Alcoholism is a spiritual disease.

[Neeranam]

7 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

MY POINT is that the Big Book does not directly describe alcoholism as a spiritual problem. All you have done is shown quotes where AA says the SOLUTION is spiritual.

Of course it does, you only quoted the end of what Wilson posted.

You never even replied to my post.

 

You've been misled by someone or something.

[likerdup1]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Of course it does, you only quoted the end of what Wilson posted.

You never even replied to my post.

 

You've been misled by someone or something.

Again you guys have missed my point. I'm not arguing against alcoholism being a spiritual problem... Alcoholism, addiction etc.. can all be viewed as spiritual problems.. BUT THE BIG BOOK DOES NOT DIRECTLY DESCRIBE THE ILLNESS AS SPIRITUAL. IT TALKS ABOUT IT OVER AND OVER as a physical allergy coupled with a mental obsession. Nobody has mislead me. I have studied the Big Book extensively. Also have studied with Joe and Charlie seminar tapes and Bob D. tapes. Alcoholism as described by AA is a physical allergy coupled with a mental obsession. Over all it can be considered a spiritual problem because the solution is spiritual but the big book describes it as a problem of body and mind. Just read the chapter "More about alcoholism" It goes into detail descrbing the mental obession part of alcoholism. "The insanity of the first drink" Therefore the main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind rather than his body...  The mental obsession is the main problem of the alcoholic.. that is solved by having a spiritual awakening. I have not been mislead, you have not completely studied the literature ...

[metisdead]

Grammar police posts has been removed. 

[likerdup1]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Of course it does, you only quoted the end of what Wilson posted.

You never even replied to my post.

 

You've been misled by someone or something.

Again, if you study the chapter "More about alcoholism" It describes the main problem of the alcoholic being the insanity of the first drink. Alcoholism is a two fold illness. Allergy of the Body coupled with an obsession of the mind. The mental obsession makes it so alcoholics cannot completely abstain from alcoholism. The first paragraph of "We Agnostics" sums up the problem also.

 

In the preceding chapters you have learned something of alcoholism. We hope we have made clear the distinction between the alcoholic and the non-alcoholic. If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely(THIS IS THE MENTAL OBESSION) , or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take (PHYSICAL ALLERGY), you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may besuffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.

 

So it is the spiritual experience that is the SOLUTION to alcoholism. It is what gives alcoholics power where they were "powerless" over alcohol. That powerlessness is the mental obsession which is relieved the a spiritual awakening brought about by doing the steps.

 

It's unbelievable to me how much misinformation about the program get's kicked around in meetings and even this thread and how insistent some of you are that you are absolutely right when you actually just are not well informed and have not really studied the literature.

[likerdup1]

On 5/18/2019 at 6:20 PM, Neeranam said:

Absolutely, thanks for explaining to the guy. Alcoholism is a spiritual disease.

All that those big book quotes show is that AA says the SOLUTION is spiritual. AA says alcoholism is an allergy of the body coupled with a obsession of the mind. Show me anywhere in the book where it goes in depth explaining alcoholism as a spiritual disease.

 

There is an entire chapter called "More About Alcoholism" NOWHERE in that chapter does it describe alcoholism as a spiritual disease.. what it does do is give heaps of evidence that alcoholics suffer from a mental obsession that dooms them to the insanity of the first drink over and over.

 

Only one sentence in the 4th step portion of "How it Works" is the illness described as spiritual. If AA was intent on explaining alcoholism as spiritual disease there would be much more in the big book then one sentence.

 

Instead of picking up hearsay in meetings, why don't you actually take some time and study the Big Book. Let me recommend Joe and Charlie or Bob D Big Book seminar tapes on youtube then we can have an interesting discussion of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.

 

 

[Yellowtail]

I always understood (at least since I got sober) alcoholism to be "An allergy of the body coupled with an obsession of the mind." 

 

I do understand it to be a spiritual program...

[Wilson Smith]

On 5/18/2019 at 6:29 PM, likerdup1 said:

 you have not completely studied the literature ...

“When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically.” 

 

 

[Wilson Smith]

On 5/19/2019 at 10:19 PM, Yellowtail said:

I always understood (at least since I got sober) alcoholism to be "An allergy of the body coupled with an obsession of the mind." 

 

I do understand it to be a spiritual program...

Perhaps you should open your eyes and your ears!

[likerdup1]

35 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

“When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically.” 

 

 

LIke I previously said, this is the ONLY sentence in the Big Book that eludes that alcoholism is a spiritual malady. But as I said before. The Big Book does NOT go in depth describing alcoholism as a spiritual malady. It goes in depth describing it as a "physical allergy" coupled with a mental obsession. They have intentionally done this. This is the problem as they see it. Again, I would recommend you study the Big Book and not just parrot things you hear in meetings and insist they are important and true. There is a good reason the Big Book DOES NOT GO IN DEPTH DESCRIBING ALCOHOLISM AS A SPIRITUAL MALADY.  IF THEY THOUGHT DOING SO WAS IMPORTANT THERE WOULD BE MORE THAN ONE SENTENCE DESCRIBING IT AS SUCH.

[likerdup1]

27 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

Perhaps you should open your eyes and your ears!

And listen to what? All we have in AA that describes the program is the Big Book and Twelve and Twelve.

 

You have failed to make your case and sighted one small sentence to support your grand conclusion. AA goes in depth describing alcoholism as a physical allergy coupled with a mental obsession. Primarily the chapters Doctors Opinion and More about Alcoholism.

 

The AA Solution is spiritual.

 

I suggest you open your eyes and study the Big Book and Twelve and Twelve instead of going to lots of meetings and making conclusions based on meeting party lines.

[Wilson Smith]

10 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

LIke I previously said, this is the ONLY sentence in the Big Book that eludes that alcoholism is a spiritual malady. But as I said before. The Big Book does NOT go in depth describing alcoholism as a spiritual malady. It goes in depth describing it as a "physical allergy" coupled with a mental obsession. They have intentionally done this. This is the problem as they see it. Again, I would recommend you study the Big Book and not just parrot things you hear in meetings and insist they are important and true. There is a good reason the Big Book DOES NOT GO IN DEPTH DESCRIBING ALCOHOLISM AS A SPIRITUAL MALADY.  IF THEY THOUGHT DOING SO WAS IMPORTANT THERE WOULD BE MORE THAN ONE SENTENCE DESCRIBING IT AS SUCH.

Dude you are delusional, good luck on your journey! 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Wilson Smith said:

Dude you are delusional, good luck on your journey! 

Well, there's a solid response that addresses the issue. 

 

"Faith without works is dead."

[Wilson Smith]

On 5/19/2019 at 10:19 PM, Yellowtail said:

I do understand it to be a spiritual program...

The goal of the "program" is a spiritual awakening" !!!!! The principles of the program are spiritual. Everything about AA is spiritual. Yes "faith without works is dead" so lets go to where this statement comes from, "Turn our will over to the care of God" sound spiritual? yes this is the faith, now that one has turned his will over to the care of God, the action is to do the action steps which then produces a spiritual awakening "we suddenly realize God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves"

 

If it is not a spiritual program, please let us know what kind of program is it?   

[Yellowtail]

16 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

The goal of the "program" is a spiritual awakening" !!!!! The principles of the program are spiritual. Everything about AA is spiritual. Yes "faith without works is dead" so lets go to where this statement comes from, "Turn our will over to the care of God" sound spiritual? yes this is the faith, now that one has turned his will over to the care of God, the action is to do the action steps which then produces a spiritual awakening "we suddenly realize God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves"

 

If it is not a spiritual program, please let us know what kind of program is it?   

I thought it was "...our will and our lives over to the care of God...", no?

 

 

 

[Orton Rd]

AA is about not taking responsibility- I have a 'disease' only the grace of the fairy in the sky can save me. Founded by a Christian fundamentalist originally Christian but changed later to 'spiritual' Of limited help but if it works thank yourself not God.

[BobBKK]

On 2/20/2019 at 7:08 PM, BritManToo said:

 

I managed to stop the binge drinking ten years back, but I still get a bit drunk every day.

Not sure I fit in the definition of 'alcoholic' as it doesn't appear to affect my life.

I definitely can't stop, nor do I want to stop.

functioning alcoholic is the term I think?  if you enjoy and it doesn't effect anything why worry too much?

[robblok]

On 5/21/2019 at 3:18 PM, BobBKK said:

functioning alcoholic is the term I think?  if you enjoy and it doesn't effect anything why worry too much?

IF it does not affect anything your right. Though getting drunk every day would affect things in your body. Anyway I don't really care what others do drinking / drugging ect. But I doubt getting drunk every day is good for the body so he has reason to worry. Unless he gets drunk from a single bottle then there is no problem.

 

 

[BobBKK]

23 hours ago, robblok said:

IF it does not affect anything your right. Though getting drunk every day would affect things in your body. Anyway I don't really care what others do drinking / drugging ect. But I doubt getting drunk every day is good for the body so he has reason to worry. Unless he gets drunk from a single bottle then there is no problem.

 

 

Yes you are right. Was watching the Monty Python doc on Netflix and Graham Chapman used to drink 1.8 liters of Gin a day. I think if you drink 10% of that evenings it's not in the same league. He started at 7am too, But, yes, it's balance. 

[likerdup1]

On 5/21/2019 at 9:35 AM, Wilson Smith said:

Dude you are delusional, good luck on your journey! 

If that's the best you can do - call me names... then I bid good luck to you and suggest you get a good sponsor, study the book and really take and informed look at what the AA program is. With the handle "wilson smith" I am surprised you have such a lack of understanding of what our literature states.

[likerdup1]

On 5/21/2019 at 2:51 PM, Wilson Smith said:

The goal of the "program" is a spiritual awakening" !!!!! The principles of the program are spiritual. Everything about AA is spiritual. Yes "faith without works is dead" so lets go to where this statement comes from, "Turn our will over to the care of God" sound spiritual? yes this is the faith, now that one has turned his will over to the care of God, the action is to do the action steps which then produces a spiritual awakening "we suddenly realize God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves"

 

If it is not a spiritual program, please let us know what kind of program is it?   

You are absolutely correct on this... BUT AGAIN. The Big Book only describes alcoholism as a spiritual malady ONCE. It goes in depth descrbing it as a physical allergy coupled with a mental obsession. Any of the good AA Big Book teachers will tell you this. Joe and Charlie. Bob D and Scott L etc.. etc.. The spiritual awakening overcomes the mental obsession.

[rott]

On 5/25/2019 at 10:03 AM, BobBKK said:

Yes you are right. Was watching the Monty Python doc on Netflix and Graham Chapman used to drink 1.8 liters of Gin a day. I think if you drink 10% of that evenings it's not in the same league. He started at 7am too, But, yes, it's balance. 

That is what - 70 units of alcohol a day. How long did he keep that up for, his insides must have been destroyed.

 

And I twitch a bit if I go over 35 units a week. Mentally twitch that is, not physically.

[madmen]

10 minutes ago, rott said:

That is what - 70 units of alcohol a day. How long did he keep that up for, his insides must have been destroyed.

 

And I twitch a bit if I go over 35 units a week. Mentally twitch that is, not physically.

The liver is an extremely powerful organ I was a chronic drinker from 18 to 40 and at my worst 35-40. Even alcohol withdrawal seizures trying to stop, so bit the bullet and got blood tests and liver was in normal range !!

[Beggar]

"I believe I am an alcoholic. But I am not sure if there are different types of alcoholic?

I mean, I can go weeks at a time without drinking - I don't "need" a drink. I do not drink at home. But any excuse to go out drinking, and I am there. My "problem" is that when I start, I cannot stop. If I went for a beer after work, I would continue on drinking with anyone that will participate, until 2,3,4, or even 5am. I don't get hangovers. I don't feel sick. "

 

I think there are different types of addictions. I was addicted to nicotine. It took me a whole year to quit smoking and it was a very hard time for me. Perhaps some people have the same experience with alcohol. In respect of alcohol I am like you. I don't need it. And if I drink too much I have no problems at all the next day. And I don't get really drunken. I just get very tired. But I am still fully concentrated. Often I cook complicated things before I sleep. The only problem is that I forget this sometimes and have to check the garbage bin and the fridge next day to find out that I cooked. But luckily such drinking sessions are not often. And I also have a strict rule that I never drink alcohol outside my condo. 

[likerdup1]

On 8/3/2019 at 11:33 AM, Beggar said:

"I believe I am an alcoholic. But I am not sure if there are different types of alcoholic?

I mean, I can go weeks at a time without drinking - I don't "need" a drink. I do not drink at home. But any excuse to go out drinking, and I am there. My "problem" is that when I start, I cannot stop. If I went for a beer after work, I would continue on drinking with anyone that will participate, until 2,3,4, or even 5am. I don't get hangovers. I don't feel sick. "

 

I think there are different types of addictions. I was addicted to nicotine. It took me a whole year to quit smoking and it was a very hard time for me. Perhaps some people have the same experience with alcohol. In respect of alcohol I am like you. I don't need it. And if I drink too much I have no problems at all the next day. And I don't get really drunken. I just get very tired. But I am still fully concentrated. Often I cook complicated things before I sleep. The only problem is that I forget this sometimes and have to check the garbage bin and the fridge next day to find out that I cooked. But luckily such drinking sessions are not often. And I also have a strict rule that I never drink alcohol outside my condo. 

The book "Alcoholics Anonymous" describes alcoholism as an "Allergy of the body" coupled with an "Obsession of the mind"

 

And allergy is an "abnormal reaction to a substance"

 

At the beginning of the AA book in the chapter "The Doctors Opinion" the doctor goes on to describe how the allergy works in alcoholics. In short it means that alcoholics can't stop drinking once they start. Moderation is extremely difficult if not impossible for chronic or "real" alcoholics.

 

There are people with drinking problems that are not necessarily alcoholic IF they can moderate or stop altogether using their own will power. These people are considered "hard drinkers" in the AA book. Page 20 and 21.

 

In the AA book they also describe the "mental obsession" The mental obsession makes it very difficult for an alcoholic to stay sober for as along as they may want to. Most "real" alcoholics as described in the AA book want to stop but cannot do it permanently on their own will power. They cannot at CERTAIN TIMES use their own will power to keep from that first drink.

 

so in short - alcoholism is a LACK OF THE ABILITY TO CONTROL ONES DRINKING. -- this is as described by Alcoholics Anonymous.

 

the medical community may have many definitions or "symptoms" but it doesn't matter to me. I fit the description AA gives so I use AA's solution to abstain from drinking. I cannot safely drink even one drink because I'll just keep going once I start.

 

I also found that trying to keep from drinking on my own didn't usually work for more than about 2 months... most of the time less. I tried for 3 years. Then I went to AA and asked for help, got a sponsor and started doing the 12 steps. That was 26 years ago and I am grateful to AA's simple 12 step program for my sobriety.

 

 

 

 

[likerdup1]

On 5/21/2019 at 3:10 PM, Orton Rd said:

AA is about not taking responsibility- I have a 'disease' only the grace of the fairy in the sky can save me. Founded by a Christian fundamentalist originally Christian but changed later to 'spiritual' Of limited help but if it works thank yourself not God.

And your qualifications for making such a blanket statement? Self appointed Doctor and expert on alcoholism?

[BobBKK]

On 5/29/2019 at 12:35 AM, rott said:

That is what - 70 units of alcohol a day. How long did he keep that up for, his insides must have been destroyed.

 

And I twitch a bit if I go over 35 units a week. Mentally twitch that is, not physically.

He was a doctor I think? but that's what he drank, 1.8 liters a day. Well he's dead obviously but that's a real extreme.

[rott]

On 5/29/2019 at 12:47 AM, madmen said:

The liver is an extremely powerful organ I was a chronic drinker from 18 to 40 and at my worst 35-40. Even alcohol withdrawal seizures trying to stop, so bit the bullet and got blood tests and liver was in normal range !!

I have since been told that Liver Function blood tests, can be within normal range but that is no guarantee that there is no fatty liver, scarred liver or even cirrhosis.

 

So what it exactly is that they do prove I am not sure.