Brexit deadlocked again: British parliament fails to find an alternative

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, Thairealist said:

Before the people’s referedum in 2016, the remain side kept telling us that in the event of Briexit, it would not be impossible for Brits to visit the E.U without a visa. In fact one T.V. Member mentioned that his own daughter had voted for remain on the strength of this threat. Since that date, some remainers have continued to spread this false information.

Now we are informed by the E.u that this threat will not be carried out,and that British citizens will be able to visit the E.u for up to 90 days without a visa. Could this decision be credited to the on going news that many Brits are not intending to visit E.u. countries, thus damaging those countries tourist economy.

 

 

UK citizens will not need to apply for a Schengen Visa like many other nationalities. On February 1, 2019, the European Council said: “EU ambassadors today agreed that, following Brexit, UK citizens coming to the Schengen area for a short stay (90 days in any 180 days) should be granted visa-free travel.”

You still don't get it

 

Right now we can live love work retire in 28 countries freely.

 

You people want to take away that right.

 

Immigration from the EU has fallen like a stone due to Brexiter nastiness. Right now EU immigration is about 16% of the total. Happy?

[Grouse]

16 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

If you look at the numbers, it looks like Ireland has overtaken the UK significantly.
UK GDP (nominal) per capita 2017:        39,734
Ireland GDP (nominal) per capita 2017:  70,638
If you take the UK as your base, Ireland has a per capita income that is 77% higher.
Every country has the same framework conditions in the EU.
I do not understand why the UK has slipped so much.
Maybe bad UK politicians and bad UK leadership in the past?
How does it look today?
Who should lead the UK after Brexit?

 

 

Country	Rank	IMF[4] 2017	Rank	WB[5] 2016
Albania	101	4,582	95	4,147
Austria	14	47,289	13	44,177
Belarus	88	5,760	88	4,989
Belgium	18	43,582	17	41,096
Bulgaria	73	8,064	71	7,351
Bosnia and Herzegovina	95	5,148	91	4,709
Croatia	44	13,138	56	12,091
Cyprus	28	24,976	32	23,324
Czech Republic	37	20,152	35	18,267
Denmark	9	56,444	8	53,418
Estonia	38	19,840	37	17,575
European Union	-	n/a	-	n/a
Europe	-	-	-	24,969
Finland	15	46,016	14	43,090
France	21	39,869	23	36,855
Germany	17	44,549	16	41,936
Greece	39	18,637	36	18,104
Hungary	51	15,531	51	12,665
Iceland	5	70,332	5	59,977
Ireland	4	70,638	4	61,607
Italy	25	31,984	27	26,939
Kosovo	-	n/a	-	3,661
Latvia	50	15,547	47	14,118
Liechtenstein	-	n/a	-	-
Lithuania	44	16,730	45	14,880
Luxembourg	1	105,803	1	102,831
North Macedonia	92	5,474	86	5,237
Malta	31	27,250	28	25,058
Moldova	133	2,279	132	1,900
Montenegro	77	7,647	77	6,701
Netherlands	12	48,345	12	45,295
Norway	3	74,940	3	70,813
Poland	55	13,822	53	12,372
Portugal	35	21,161	34	19,813
Romania	54	12,523	59	9,474
Russia	62	10,608	61	8,748
San Marino	-	n/a	-	-
Serbia	87	5,899	84	5,348
Slovakia	42	20,508	39	16,496
Slovenia	34	23,654	32	21,305
Spain	29	28,358	24	28,523
Sweden	11	53,217	10	51,600
Switzerland	2	80,590	2	78,812
Ukraine	129	2,582	126	2,186
United Kingdom	22	39,734	18	39,899

This should be a wake call to our strident but synaptically challenged friends!

[StreetCowboy]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Do try and keep up

 

I give a certain amount of leeway to Brexiters but a little effort in return would be appreciated 

 

To explain: 

 

Our contribution to the EU is calculated using a formula with many variables. Historically we have been a net contributor. It's a good thing that richer member countries pay more to help poorer countries, make them more successful and thus increase OUR target market size.

 

You need a minute to think about that?

 

Right now, the UK is tending downward economically; certainly behind the curve

 

I conclude that our net contribution will fall and may go negative.

 

Pause and think

 

We may end up a net recipient 

 

OK now?

Think what a net benefitee we will be when we rejoin!

Edited April 3, 2019 by StreetCowboy

[david555]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/03/eu-leaders-urged-to-refuse-may-appeal-for-further-brexit-delay

Juncker rejects May appeal for a further short Brexit delay

European commission president says 12 April ‘ultimate deadline’ for MPs to pass deal

Theresa May’s appeal for a short Brexit extension has been rejected by Jean-Claude Juncker, who said that unless the withdrawal deal was passed within nine days the UK would crash out of the EU or have to sign up to a long delay.

Less than 24 hours after May had spelled out her new strategy from Downing Street, the European commission president dismissed her request for an extension of article 50 to 22 May.

Speaking to the European parliament, Juncker instead set an “ultimate deadline” of 12 April for the Commons to approve the withdrawal agreement.

“If it has not done so by then, no further short extension will be possible,” he said. “After 12 April, we risk jeopardising the European parliament elections, and so threaten the functioning of the European Union.”

Juncker said that at that point the UK would face a no-deal Brexit but that the EU would not “kick out” a member state, in a reference to the certain offer of a lengthy extension of article 50.

Juncker said: “Yet I believe that a no deal at midnight on 12 April is now a very likely scenario,. It is not the outcome I want. But it is an outcome for which I have made sure the European Union is ready.

Edited April 3, 2019 by david555

[katana]

Don't know if it's been posted here before, Robin Tilbrook of the English Democrats (never heard of them) has launched a High Court case to prove UK has ALREADY left the EU on March 29th and further Brexit negotiations are pointless.
Robin Tilbrook argues that Britain left the union on March 29 as originally planned, saying the PM's extension was not legally valid.
More here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6879215/English-Democrats-begin-court-battle-prove-UK-left-EU.html

Edited April 3, 2019 by katana

[bomber]

1 hour ago, katana said:

Don't know if it's been posted here before, Robin Tilbrook of the English Democrats (never heard of them) has launched a High Court case to prove UK has ALREADY left the EU on March 29th and further Brexit negotiations are pointless.
Robin Tilbrook argues that Britain left the union on March 29 as originally planned, saying the PM's extension was not legally valid.
More here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6879215/English-Democrats-begin-court-battle-prove-UK-left-EU.html

i think Mr Tilbrook needs to keep out of spoonies

[tomacht8]

4 hours ago, david555 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/03/eu-leaders-urged-to-refuse-may-appeal-for-further-brexit-delay

Juncker rejects May appeal for a further short Brexit delay

European commission president says 12 April ‘ultimate deadline’ for MPs to pass deal

Theresa May’s appeal for a short Brexit extension has been rejected by Jean-Claude Juncker, who said that unless the withdrawal deal was passed within nine days the UK would crash out of the EU or have to sign up to a long delay.

Less than 24 hours after May had spelled out her new strategy from Downing Street, the European commission president dismissed her request for an extension of article 50 to 22 May.

Speaking to the European parliament, Juncker instead set an “ultimate deadline” of 12 April for the Commons to approve the withdrawal agreement.

“If it has not done so by then, no further short extension will be possible,” he said. “After 12 April, we risk jeopardising the European parliament elections, and so threaten the functioning of the European Union.”

Juncker said that at that point the UK would face a no-deal Brexit but that the EU would not “kick out” a member state, in a reference to the certain offer of a lengthy extension of article 50.

Juncker said: “Yet I believe that a no deal at midnight on 12 April is now a very likely scenario,. It is not the outcome I want. But it is an outcome for which I have made sure the European Union is ready.

Thanks for the Information.
Nobody wants a stupid Brexit.
The Uk have some kind of black out current .
I've never before seen the UK's willingness to compromise at such a low Level.

Edited April 3, 2019 by tomacht8

[david555]

8 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Thanks for the Information.

A extra info out the full article:

The announcement that the EU would refuse to back down after a no-deal pours cold water on Brexiteer hopes that the UK could get a better deal by refusing to pay the unpopular £39bn financial settlement or sign up to the controversial backstop and then negotiate a separate trade agreement.

Edited April 3, 2019 by david555

[tomacht8]

1 minute ago, david555 said:

A extra info out the full article:

The announcement that the EU would refuse to back down after a no-deal pours cold water on Brexiteer hopes that the UK could get a better deal by refusing to pay the unpopular £39bn financial settlement or sign up to the controversial backstop and then negotiate a separate trade agreement.

The 39 billion are undisputed.
It's only the populists who do not understand the signed contracts.
 

[aright]

7 hours ago, Grouse said:

This should be a wake call to our strident but synaptically challenged friends!

Why? More a challenge to you I would have thought.

 

"UK GDP (nominal) per capita 2017:        39,734
Ireland GDP (nominal) per capita 2017:  70,638
If you take the UK as your base, Ireland has a per capita income that is 77% higher."

 

Nominal GDP is the market value  of all final goods and services produced in a country.

Can you explain to me how you can conclude from tomacht8's GDP figures a higher 77% per capita income ? 

Edited April 3, 2019 by aright

[david555]

10 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

The 39 billion are undisputed.
It's only the populists who do not understand the signed contracts.
 

Have a little pity with hardcore Brexiteers here ….. as it could rise their blood pressure ….second thought ...no problem.... they are anyway so self confident can never happen  ...

But here they are spitting fire ….fun to read , spoken about rhetoric ...Comments page from Torygraph... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/03/jean-claude-juncker-attacks-no-deal-brexit-supporters-urges/#comments

Edited April 3, 2019 by david555

[tomacht8]

14 minutes ago, aright said:

Why? More a challenge to you I would have thought.

 

"UK GDP (nominal) per capita 2017:        39,734
Ireland GDP (nominal) per capita 2017:  70,638
If you take the UK as your base, Ireland has a per capita income that is 77% higher."

 

Nominal GDP is the market value  of all final goods and services produced in a country.

Can you explain to me how you can conclude from tomacht8's figures a higher 77% per capita income  from the GDP figures quoted?

70.638 *100

___________     =177% - minus 100% for the base = 77,7777%

     39.734

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by tomacht8

[aright]

4 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

70.638 *100

___________     =177% - minus 100% for the base = 77%

     39.734

 

You can't extrapolate per capita income from per capita GDP …..they are 2 different animals. Nominal GDP takes no account of incomes.

These figures are from Wiki

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tomacht8]

6 minutes ago, aright said:

You can't extrapolate per capita income from per capita GDP …..they are 2 different animals. Nominal GDP takes no account of incomes.

These figures are from Wiki

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right.
It is from wiki,
All numbers have the same basis. Or do you want to deny that?

[tomacht8]

24 minutes ago, david555 said:

Snip ….
Have a little pity with hardcore Brexiteers here….
Snip

Do not worry. I have.
I respect everyone here. Even if they want to shoot themselves in the leg.
OK for me. It Is your life.

[tomacht8]

3 minutes ago, vinniekintana said:

In other words....a long delay or Brexit on the 13th.

...and option A is what it will be.

 

 

 

Juncker said: “Yet I believe that a no deal at midnight on 12 April is now a very likely scenario,. It is not the outcome I want. But it is an outcome for which I have made sure the European Union is ready.

I think that is a clear line.

[aright]

27 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Right.
It is from wiki,
All numbers have the same basis. Or do you want to deny that?

I'm not claiming anything other than your figures make no sense. Are you still claiming Irish workers earn on average 77% more than UK workers. If so explain to me how you derived per capita income from GDP. I'm a good listener.

Knowing Wiki I suspect their figures are compared on the same basis but I have no inside knowledge, perhaps, since you are the one questioning their integrity you could look it up and let me know.

[tomacht8]

10 minutes ago, aright said:

I'm not claiming anything other than your figures make no sense. Are you still claiming Irish workers earn on average 77% more than UK workers. If so explain to me how you derived per capita income from GDP. I'm a good listener.

Knowing Wiki I suspect their figures are compared on the same basis but I have no inside knowledge, perhaps, since you are the one questioning their integrity you could look it up and let me know.

Comparing income on the same basis makes sense.

The distribution of statistical income over the Population can not be read off.
The interesting question is how this income is distributed within a country.
Look at the GINI coefficients.

I hope you do not want to deny that Ireland has overtaken the UK per GDP per inhabitant.

Edited April 3, 2019 by tomacht8

[aright]

12 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Comparing income on the same basis makes sense.

The distribution of statistical income over the Population can not be read off.
The interesting question is how this income is distributed within a country.
Look at the GINI coefficients.

I hope you do not want to deny that Ireland has overtaken the UK per GDP per inhabitant.

I certainly wouldn't deny that in raw figure terms the RoI has overtaken the UK but there is a caveat to GDP.

GDP does not take into account currency conversion, relative purchasing power, or the value of public goods such as healthcare, education, defence and transport infrastructure, etc..

The French work fewer hours than the average Brit and even that falsely inflates the GDP figures in the UK relative to France.

When valuing a country or a Union I personally stay away from GDP preferring to use social, political, legislative and economic values and indicators.  

 

[Laughing Gravy]

11 hours ago, bomber said:

luckily 90% of eire folks (a figure i read recently) want to remain in the EU,its seems your cultchy cousins will have a long wait.

Please provide that evidence and not from the toilet in one of your bar hangouts. A credible source or are you just making it up. if so you should remove it.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Laughing Gravy

[Laughing Gravy]

6 hours ago, Benroon said:

Stunningly poor grammar which whilst undoubtedly pedantic, is relevant when you're criticising someones English skills !

As you have jumped on the bandwagon I suggest you go and read ALL of the posts before commenting.  Asking a question in writing does not need to be done directly.

 

As I am not writing any research papers I am writing in 'Laymans' style. Luckily I am on a message board and not an educational journals panel, although as with them, there are those who seem to be up their own passage.

[Laughing Gravy]

11 hours ago, Grouse said:

I'm from the UK

 

The 17.4 were wrong

 

Massively wrong

That is your opinion. Thankfully a binary vote means your one vote and the other 16 million lost.

[david555]

25 minutes ago, vinniekintana said:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-03/pound-rallies-commons-passes-bill-requiring-may-request-another-brexit-delay

 

.....'May is reportedly leaning toward requesting a nine-month delay,...'

 

 

 

BUT !...Quote out same article ….(?)

"even if May does request another extension, the EU could still opt to deny her request, which European Commission Jean Claude Juncker has suggested would be the case).

However, while top officials in Brussels have insisted that the won't grant another extension unless the Commons passes the withdrawal agreement, anonymously sourced reports published earlier in the day on Wednesday said the EU27 was leaning toward an arrangement where they would grant an extension if the UK agrees to certain 'conditions' like participating in the EU Parliamentary elections next month. May is reportedly leaning toward requesting a nine-month delay, as reports published late in the day suggested that her talks with the opposition haven't been going as well as Labour said."

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

The 39 billion are undisputed.
It's only the populists who do not understand the signed contracts.
 

At last - someone who has seen how the 39 bn has been calculated!

 

Would you post a link please, so that us non-understanding populists can learn why the 39bn is "undisputed"?

[david555]

21 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

At last - someone who has seen how the 39 bn has been calculated!

 

Would you post a link please, so that us non-understanding populists can learn why the 39bn is "undisputed"?

Not really a link , (but a copy paste I did )referring to answer in the H.O.C. from the Gov. lawyer Cox in referring to the 39 Billions...( that moment HOC MP's asked Cox to give clearing (forced ) of the legal bindings they would not open voluntarily ….), May has always danced around specific figure when asked ….. (as usual on hot items …) but in future happenings true story about it  shall arise on surface undoubtable ….

 

 

18:17
Philip Davies, the Tory Brexiter, asks if the UK would have to pay money to the EU if it left without a deal.
Cox says he thinks the UK would have to pay money. A Lords committee said that the UK would not have to pay anything under EU law. But the UK would have obligations under international public law, he says. He says you could try to argue that those obligations did not apply, but he says he thinks that argument would fail. And he says, if the UK did try to avoid paying what it owed, there would be reputational damage. If you leave a club, you do not go without paying your bar bill, he says.

 

(The chancellor P.Hammond also has always spoken in same way when asked in other Q & A in H.O.C....)

One from PM. T May 

23:30
"What are we buying with £39bn of taxpayers' money?"
Chief Tory Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg asks the PM: "What are we buying with £39bn of taxpayers' money?"
The PM dismisses Rees-Mogg's claim there is no legal obligation on the UK to pay a Brexit bill, saying there are "legal obligations" that would have to be paid "in any circumstances" when the UK leaves the EU.
 

Edited April 4, 2019 by david555

[Jip99]

8 minutes ago, david555 said:

 

 

 

. If you leave a club, you do not go without paying your bar bill, he says.

 

 

 

I agree with that - but like any Pattaya bar bill, I would check that the bill reflects the service received and I make sure the buggers haven’t padded it.

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, david555 said:

Not really a link , (but a copy paste I did )referring to answer in the H.O.C. from the Gov. lawyer Cox in referring to the 39 Billions...( that moment HOC MP's asked Cox to give clearing (forced ) of the legal bindings they would not open voluntarily ….), May has always danced around specific figure when asked ….. (as usual on hot items …) but in future happenings true story about it  shall arise on surface undoubtable ….

 

 

18:17
Philip Davies, the Tory Brexiter, asks if the UK would have to pay money to the EU if it left without a deal.
Cox says he thinks the UK would have to pay money. A Lords committee said that the UK would not have to pay anything under EU law. But the UK would have obligations under international public law, he says. He says you could try to argue that those obligations did not apply, but he says he thinks that argument would fail. And he says, if the UK did try to avoid paying what it owed, there would be reputational damage. If you leave a club, you do not go without paying your bar bill, he says.

 

(The chancellor P.Hammond also has always spoken in same way when asked in other Q & A in H.O.C....)

One from PM. T May 

23:30
"What are we buying with £39bn of taxpayers' money?"
Chief Tory Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg asks the PM: "What are we buying with £39bn of taxpayers' money?"
The PM dismisses Rees-Mogg's claim there is no legal obligation on the UK to pay a Brexit bill, saying there are "legal obligations" that would have to be paid "in any circumstances" when the UK leaves the EU.
 

In other words the 39bn is far from "undisputed" - and the 'calculations' have still not been revealed!

 

And tomatcht8 accuses others of being ignorant of the 'facts'.....

[david555]

1 minute ago, Jip99 said:

 

I agree with that - but like any Pattaya bar bill, I would check that the bill reflects the service received and I make sure the buggers haven’t padded it.

But in Pattaya you meet then the Hospital bill after the taxiboys or bouncers stepped in to convince you …. just in Pattaya of course ...

[david555]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

In other words the 39bn is far from "undisputed" - and the 'calculations' have still not been revealed!

 

And tomatcht8 accuses others of being ignorant of the 'facts'.....

Exactly … as it is as classified  gov. secret seems…., as T.M. needed to keep peace same time with Brexiteers , Remainers & the E,U.   sums it all up ,especially to her own Conservatives …..

Edited April 4, 2019 by david555

[Loiner]

The 39 billion are undisputed.
It's only the populists who do not understand the signed contracts.
 

The 39 billion is part of the May/Merkel surrender treaty, so is not only disputed but has been rejected by the commons three times so far.
Although I’m not a fan of the Parliament trickery at the moment, in this one issue it has performed its function properly. Unlike many of the previous EU treaties, on this occasion a signature from the PM is not enough to sign away the UK’s rights.