Who really suffers

[BertM]

8 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

It was a one-off, although we may do it again somewhere down the track. I don't need to do the income route, I have the 800,000 on deposit.

As for excess funds in baht, I can always buy gold or exchange for other currencies. I like Swiss francs, they seem to go up every time there are financial tremors.

Understand the situation now... that's very nice of you to help a trusted friend when needed. And, the extra money here can be put to good use. More people could use a good friend like you. Nice gesture...

Edited April 9, 2019 by BertM

[ubonjoe]

A off topic post and replies it caused have been removed.

[AjarnMartin]

On 4/8/2019 at 8:46 AM, lelapin said:

With 2 wives still back in the UK that could be tricky!!!!!

 

Hahaha. Now I understand your nom de plume... ???? Bon chance...

[Thingamabob]

On 4/8/2019 at 8:42 AM, lelapin said:

I am not comparing interest rates with home & Thai banks. I have read many posts from people who make non bank investments  at higher rates and will no longer be able to do so. I am stating that they will not be the person in the long run who will be suffering from loss of investment.

You're not making sense.

[Thingamabob]

On 4/8/2019 at 12:26 PM, CanuckThai said:

No argument, but that is part of the point.  Who in their right mind (back in our home countries), would park the equivalent of 800K baht in a bank, to basically lose against annual inflation?   No significant gain, no tax incentive, nada.   A reasonable investment (or brokerage) can almost guarantee a safe X points above inflation or X% over interest rates at a bank...

 

An annual burning of 20 baht bills for a humdinger of a bbq, would give a better roi than parking 800k here.

This is nonsense.

[Thingamabob]

2 hours ago, fforest1 said:

In a nutshell....Thailand offers no social benefits to Expats at all.....They give no legal rights to Expats at all...They offer no long term visa security to Expats at all, and no the few PRs issued dont count....The offer no ability to work,and no the few work permits issued dont count....

 

The only thing good they offered a Expat was a easy visa...

 

Well folks with out a easy visa the Thai government is offering Expats a grand total of NOTHING what so ever....

No worse than most other countries.

[luckyluke]

It wasn't that bad a while ago here,

it is still for some.

 

I still haven't to put 400/800000 in a bank, neither to transfer monthly a minimun of 65000.

 

Like in 2000, I still can obtain today a L.o.I. at my Embassy. 

 

Till today T.I. hasn't change anything about this possibility. 

 

Till a few months ago every nationality could use this way. 

 

Hope some nationalities will find a decent way to stay here, according to their wishes and possibilities. 

 

T.I. adapted some regulations in order to try to accommodate the nationalities which can not obtain a L.o.I. anymore. 

 

These modifications are not very popular among a lot. 

 

Maybe they had better do nothing, and not trying to "help" the ones who could not obtain a L.o.I. anymore. 

 

Now for sure some of these will pretend, and even hope, that every Nationality will soon not be able anymore to use a L.o.I..

 

Kind of Schadenfreude : if I am in the problems, everybody should. 

 

Will see what comes out. 

[ubonjoe]

A post flaming a member has been removed.

[lelapin]

Thaivisa is amazing. I was the one who started off this topic with a simple thought and since then there have been another 158 posts covering the most diverse subjects and views one could imagine.

My thought was that as a aged sick person living in Thailand with no dependents in my home country and a long standing girl friend here who would eventually receive all my Thai assets from the will that I had made here, any money that I would lose from having to have my money tied up here in a bank earning low interest, for visa requirements would affect her and not me. I almost certainly have enough to live in quite comfortably for the rest of my life unless I surpass 90. So if my remaining assets here are reduced by the new rules of immigration she is the one that will suffer not me and yet I am sure that is not something that the powers that be here in Thailand even considered.

A very simple thought that could generate so many comments from experts on so many topics.

How the British Government could benefit from having some of you as part of it to sort out Brexit.

 

 

[Number 6]

Not to be flippant but the Thai government could not care less what happens to the woman from Issarn to whom you are not even legally married. Why would you think otherwise?

 

What are you expecting of them? In all likelihood you don't pay taxes as well. Just crazy talk.

[ubonjoe]

Some baiting and bickering posts have been removed.

[JackThompson]

7 hours ago, murraynz said:

excuses, excuses, excuses--many of us have had these problems also--learn from it and move on...

Of course - no point giving up.  But, the number of years left to do anything about it dwindle with each setback - not so easy "starting over" at age 40 when your career is off-shored. 

 

And, to spite the setbacks, some want to enjoy a bit of "good life" while they still have some years of quality-health remaining.  If they can do it by retiring to a country with lower overhead costs, I think that is wonderful - a "win win" for the host-country's citizens and the retiree

... unless some foolish immigration-policy pointlessly wrecks the arrangement, harming all parties by so doing.

[wwest5829]

On 4/8/2019 at 8:25 AM, mlkik said:

I keep 800,000 baht in a Thai bank for my retirement extension and the interest rate is as good as the rate if I kept it in a UK bank.

I truly am happy for you. My circumstances however vary. I will not be moving money that would otherwise stay invested on the stock market in my retirement funds. I have and plan to keep such funds separate.

[Cat ji]

2 hours ago, lelapin said:

Thaivisa is amazing. I was the one who started off this topic with a simple thought and since then there have been another 158 posts covering the most diverse subjects and views one could imagine.

My thought was that as a aged sick person living in Thailand with no dependents in my home country and a long standing girl friend here who would eventually receive all my Thai assets from the will that I had made here, any money that I would lose from having to have my money tied up here in a bank earning low interest, for visa requirements would affect her and not me. I almost certainly have enough to live in quite comfortably for the rest of my life unless I surpass 90. So if my remaining assets here are reduced by the new rules of immigration she is the one that will suffer not me and yet I am sure that is not something that the powers that be here in Thailand even considered.

I understand; I understand why the complaint, but that's the thing - the government did not consider that aspect of it, the focus is on other factors. What government would consider that factor? - I can't imagine any that would.

[IAMHERE]

US citizens must inform the IRS on the 1040 that they had a foreign bank account. I'd think the IRS will cross check every Form 8938 with the appropriate 1040. 

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, yogi100 said:

If and when said falangs begin new relationships with native women in their new destinations these Thai women and often their families are going to be on Struggle Street. So the spiteful Thai authorities are going to be causing a lot of harm and distress to thousands of their own people. But as they are just poor country folk that will mean nothing to the elite who run the country. 

I don't know if this even on the radar of the Thai-elite class, since (as some love to point out), we are not a huge factor in the Thai GDP and their stock portfolios.  But it is on the radar of immigration, who only care about how much extra-loot they can claw in via agents and such.  In my experience, they show nothing but contempt for the Thai women who marry us, and clearly don't care about the Thais who are employed by our spending.

 

7 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Sounds like you are taking out your lack of funds on the Immigration folk.  Why would they listen to your ideas of what retirement in Thailand should cost?  It would be like immigrants telling the country to let them in with no papers and a jail record.  I think the country you want to live in has the right to set the rules.  

Not having a criminal record is a reasonable request, as are other policies designed to protect the interests of the Thai people. 

 

But, retirement in Thailand costs what the market dictates - not what Immigration imagines.  Of course, they can make up some market-disconnected imaginary-number, and impose their will by govt-policy (following Malaysia's xenophobic lead).   But limits are only justified if they prevent harm to the Thai people - not when it robs them of economic opportunities they could have otherwise enjoyed. 

 

And when immigration keep a "back door" open for the agent-option, while raising the bar to send more expats to that back-door - while simultaneously flooding in the poorest visitors they can coax-in by the plane-load - it becomes clear the policy was never intended to have any beneficial effect for the country's citizens, keeping the visitor-market "upscale," or anything remotely good for the country.

 

So, in this case - and in keeping with the OP of this thread - immigration's "tightening" policies to Western expats is unquestionably Anti-Thai.

[Cat ji]

23 hours ago, Thailand Outcast said:

I had been on the 65k method.

 

If the agents are allowed to continue to operate under the new laws, and their prices remain around the same as before, I will use their "services" and remain in Thailand. 

 

That means my 800k stays in my managed fund, in my home country, safe and secure, with a return of around 6% to 8%. 

 

I will have the same visa as a someone with 800k wasted in a Thai bank, 400k of which they have basically lost forever. 

 

You obviously haven't been to Vietnam for quite some time.  Plenty of female company in Vietnam, and no difficulty at all. 

 

At first, when these new visa laws came out, I thought for sure the agents would be shut down.  Now, it appears immigration is actually trying to push people onto them.

 

Like I have said, pay 20k to an agent without any other hoops to jump through, and maintain control over your finances, versus 800k in a Thai bank,  seasoning periods to consider, losing the right to use 400k of your own money, and you get paid 1.5% for the privilege, and, you have to deal with immigration officers.  Which one would you chose?

It seems that could be a better option even for people who would prefer to move all/most of their funds out of their home country.
However,...pay 20K baht to an agent versus keeping 800K in a Thai bank...is that the temporary/jugglery way to do the same thing - "retirement visa"?
Isn't there some money market type of account which pays something like 5%

[Cat ji]

23 hours ago, Thailand Outcast said:

I had been on the 65k method.

 

If the agents are allowed to continue to operate under the new laws, and their prices remain around the same as before, I will use their "services" and remain in Thailand. 

 

That means my 800k stays in my managed fund, in my home country, safe and secure, with a return of around 6% to 8%. 

 

I will have the same visa as a someone with 800k wasted in a Thai bank, 400k of which they have basically lost forever. 

 

You obviously haven't been to Vietnam for quite some time.  Plenty of female company in Vietnam, and no difficulty at all. 

 

At first, when these new visa laws came out, I thought for sure the agents would be shut down.  Now, it appears immigration is actually trying to push people onto them.

 

Like I have said, pay 20k to an agent without any other hoops to jump through, and maintain control over your finances, versus 800k in a Thai bank,  seasoning periods to consider, losing the right to use 400k of your own money, and you get paid 1.5% for the privilege, and, you have to deal with immigration officers.  Which one would you chose?

It seems that could be a better option even for people who would prefer to move all/most of their funds out of their home country.

However,...pay 20K baht to an agent versus keeping 800K in a Thai bank...is that the temporary/jugglery way to do the same thing - "retirement visa"?
Isn't there some money market type of account which pays something like 5%-7% interest? - Allowing withdrawals at any time, and so satisfying the retirement visa funds requirement, provided that the balance remains above the 400K and is 800K "seasoned" at the time of the visa extension/renewal?

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Cat ji said:

It seems that could be a better option even for people who would prefer to move all/most of their funds out of their home country.

However,...pay 20K baht to an agent versus keeping 800K in a Thai bank...is that the temporary/jugglery way to do the same thing - "retirement visa"?

Agents have been getting obtaining with their immigration-partners for many years, and continue to do so.  Those who use them, paying a 15K to 30K fee, get the same extension as someone who complies with all the rules, and pays a 1900 Baht fee.  It is my view that the pointless "tightening" of restrictions of various types of extensions are entirely to increase the revenue immigration receives from their agent-partners.

 

Quote

Isn't there some money market type of account which pays something like 5%-7% interest? - Allowing withdrawals at any time, and so satisfying the retirement visa funds requirement, provided that the balance remains above the 400K and is 800K "seasoned" at the time of the visa extension/renewal?

Unfortunately not.  Accounts with that rate of return incur risk of the principal, which disqualifies them for this function with immigration.  The closest one can get to a decent rate is with an account where the principal is safe, and only the interest-return is at risk (in case of early withdrawal).  Some offices have been reported to even balk at those.

Edited April 9, 2019 by JackThompson

[bkkcanuck8]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

But, retirement in Thailand costs what the market dictates - not what Immigration imagines.  Of course, they can make up some market-disconnected imaginary-number, and impose their will by govt-policy (following Malaysia's xenophobic lead).   But limits are only justified if they prevent harm to the Thai people - not when it robs them of economic opportunities they could have otherwise enjoyed.

Thailand does not officially have open borders, and there is no government policy politician that dictates the standard of approval of getting a retirement based visa be can the visa holder live on what they have available.  There is no benefit to Thailand to allow unfettered immigration for retirement where there is not a significant financial benefit for the local economy.  It is a way of balancing quality over quantity to a certain extent where quality is defined as not undesirable (for example criminals, etc.) and of a given threshold of case infusion to the local economy.  If a retiree is not adding to the economy any more than an average local Thai, it does not provide the benefits to warrant a visa.  It is no different than any other qualification based visa... but just different qualifications.  Just being a retiree does not give you any entitlement to live wherever you want.

[Golden Triangle]

On 4/8/2019 at 10:41 AM, Thailand Outcast said:

A balanced, and well managed, non aggressive fund, will return about 6% to 8%. 

 

Factor those losses into the cost of your visa, by keeping 800k in a Thai bank. 

 

What do you think the Thai banks do with your 800k?

I wish someone would tell my financial adviser that, I have a large chunk of pension fund sitting idle earning diddly squat because he reliably informs me that the markets at the moment are no good !!!

[JackThompson]

36 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Thailand does not officially have open borders, and there is no government policy politician that dictates the standard of approval of getting a retirement based visa be can the visa holder live on what they have available.  There is no benefit to Thailand to allow unfettered immigration for retirement where there is not a significant financial benefit for the local economy.  It is a way of balancing quality over quantity to a certain extent where quality is defined as not undesirable (for example criminals, etc.) and of a given threshold of case infusion to the local economy.  If a retiree is not adding to the economy any more than an average local Thai, it does not provide the benefits to warrant a visa.  It is no different than any other qualification based visa... but just different qualifications.  Just being a retiree does not give you any entitlement to live wherever you want.

 

I was not making the case for open borders or the curtailment of government functions that operate in ways to benefit their own people.  As per my last post on this ...

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

But limits are only justified if they prevent harm to the Thai people - not when it robs them of economic opportunities they could have otherwise enjoyed. 

Rather, my point is that immigration's policy on retirees is not based on either quality nor on expat-retirees income's being beneficial to Thais.

 

As to quality:  Immigration's agent side-business (so important to them, that they are driving honest, qualifying-applicants out of the country to increase it) effectively reduces the threshold for retirees to "Got ~$650 per-year to spare?"  But much more significant, due to volume, is the effect of "package tourism," which brings in masses of people who can barely afford to travel at all, and in numbers that reduce the quality of Thailand's tourist-destinations.  The fact they "Don't stay long," does not matter, when another one takes the place of the one who just left.  A relatively small number of people make most of the money from that system - as differentiated from how expats (and Western tourists, generally), spend their money with a more diverse selection of Thais.

 

As to expat-retirees income's being beneficial to Thais: There is a very wide spread between 65K/mo and the income of an "average local Thai." Even when dealing with "re-cycled" money, consider the effect of increasing the middle-class of a nation.  Not only does it improve the lives of those who join it first, it builds a bridge to those they employ to come in behind them, who then bring in more.  Expats, with what amounts to a Thai "upper middle-class" income, have this effect - but more, as their spending is of foreign-sourced wealth.  It literally "makes the pie bigger" instantaneously, without the lag-time of the development-cycle - while still supporting that development-cycle.

 

Therefore, far less than 65K/mo in foreign-sourced wealth being spent per-retiree would have a significant beneficial effect per retiree.  To the extent that, for example, 35K/mo + persons are screened-out, Thais are losing economic opportunities they would otherwise have.  In that example, I would estimate multiples of Thai's current opportunities are lost, when one considers the greater potential number of retirees who would qualify.  At the same time, that increase would be far less than the current number of low-spending "package tour" tourists, so would not create the crowding-problem. 

[garyk]

On 4/7/2019 at 8:55 PM, gk10002000 said:

As far as money and interest, I keep my money fully invested in the USA and in mostly tax free investments or my ROTH IRA.  I hate paperwork, and while the FINRA 10K USD filing stuff is not hard, I hate to file paperwork with the USA if I have $10,000 USD in any overseas account.  And if I had 800k baht or about 24,000 USD on deposit in Thailand that would not only require me to file the 10k document, I would also now have to report any interest earned on that when I do my USA taxes.  Just my preference to hate to do additional paperwork or filing.  And that $24,000 USD can earn me a decent penny in the USA in my tax free investments, easily over $1,000 a year.  The fact I can afford to not earn that is irrelevant.  I got to where I am in life by not throwing away $1,000 silly nilly.  Income method was a nice simple thing and something I could easily proved and document before.  Now with the recent changes, the whole thing is a mess.  I have no desire to setup any sort of automatic transfers, or withdrawals, pay fees, risk account security, overseas issues, etc.  But, it is what it is.  Will see how things shake out in the next year when I do the Thailand thing as I semi retire

Same boat, in a nutshell. Screw Thailand and their new retirement rules.  haha

[gentlemanjackdarby]

1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Thailand does not officially have open borders, and there is no government policy politician that dictates the standard of approval of getting a retirement based visa be can the visa holder live on what they have available.  There is no benefit to Thailand to allow unfettered immigration for retirement where there is not a significant financial benefit for the local economy.  It is a way of balancing quality over quantity to a certain extent where quality is defined as not undesirable (for example criminals, etc.) and of a given threshold of case infusion to the local economy.  If a retiree is not adding to the economy any more than an average local Thai, it does not provide the benefits to warrant a visa.  It is no different than any other qualification based visa... but just different qualifications.  Just being a retiree does not give you any entitlement to live wherever you want.

Any retiree from most any Western country, and Japan as well, even if their annual income falls into the lowest income level of those retirees, provides one thing that a Thai of the same income level does not: an inflow of foreign-sourced hard currencies, such as the USD, GBP (no jokes please - once Brexit is settled, it will be back), CHF, EUR, JPY, etc. 

 

And purely from an economic point of view, as long as a retiree is spending foreign-sourced income for Thai goods and especially services, not taking a job for which a Thai is qualified, and not using social services, that retiree is a net gain for the Thai economy.

 

The Thailand retirement visa is VERY different from any other retirement visa at which I've looked, either in great detail, such as those from Thailand's neighbors, or in less detail, such as those from Latin and South America:

 

With those visas, one does not re-qualify year-in and year-out, the qualification procedure is much more straight-forward and transparent, and the length of the visas allow a retiree to have somewhat long (Malaysia) to effectively forever (Philippines) period of visa certainty; some of the retirement visas in Latin and South America offer access to the national health systems and permanent residency or even citizenship after relatively short times and with fairly easy requirements.

 

As well, most of the other countries offering retirement visas promote the use of agents, but in an official and transparent way, for those wishing to avoid doing the work themselves

 

As for living somewhere simply because one is a retiree, it seems to me that a country with forward-looking governance should be shaking with anticipation when looking at countries with huge numbers of folks in or soon to be in their retirement years, such as the U.S. baby boomers. For countries with excess low-cost labor, such as the PI or Indonesia, building and marketing a system to meet the needs of retirees seems to me to be no-brainer.

[Cat ji]

2 hours ago, gentlemanjackdarby said:

[...]

The Thailand retirement visa is VERY different from any other retirement visa at which I've looked, either in great detail, such as those from Thailand's neighbors, or in less detail, such as those from Latin and South America:

 

With those visas, one does not re-qualify year-in and year-out, the qualification procedure is much more straight-forward and transparent, and the length of the visas allow a retiree to have somewhat long (Malaysia) to effectively forever (Philippines) period of visa certainty; some of the retirement visas in Latin and South America offer access to the national health systems and permanent residency or even citizenship after relatively short times and with fairly easy requirements.

 

I wish there was some sort of "one-stop shop" that would provide most of that information.

[gentlemanjackdarby]

2 minutes ago, Cat ji said:

 

I wish there was some sort of "one-stop shop" that would provide most of that information.

I agree

 

However, I think that would be very difficult since there are a lot of subtleties to each country's visa that would be pretty much impossible one person, or even a group of people, to keep up with.

 

For example, I had moved the PI to the bottom of my list until the recent changes in the retirement visa situation in Thailand and a comment someone made on here about the O-A visa in that context caused the penny to drop: I realized if I get a PI SRRV, which grants residency status in the PI, I could get an O-A in Manila rather than travel all the way back to the U.S. and spend extended time in Thailand in smaller chunks

 

Another example is Indonesia: At first glance, I thought that was an easy choice, except for the fact that if one holds a retirement visa there, one must also hire a maid.

 

Simple, right?

 

Pay her to not show up and clean my condo myself - however, one must report and pay social security benefits

 

At least for Thailand and the PI, there are several good forums that go into detail on retirement visas - other countries have forums but, likely because there are fewer expats in general and even fewer retirees, there isn't as much in the way of detailed discussions. However, in those countries, especially Latin and South America, the official sites tend to be helpful.

[Lacessit]

9 hours ago, Benroon said:

Who pays for the bank overheads ? The ATM technology, buildings, staff etc ? That's the differential between what they give you and charge others - if you don't like them, don't use them.

I don't have any choice in terms of Thailand banks - it is what it is.

I bank with a credit union in Australia, have done for many years. I did have funds on term deposit with the major Australian banks when they were paying 6% interest. Those funds were pulled out when interest rates dropped to less than 3%.

Overheads are only part of the story. Australian banks pay dividends to their shareholders at a yield of 5.5%, excluding franking credits. Provided one is tolerant of risk, that's a much better return than having funds on deposit with them in the present financial climate.

It's not a matter of whether I like them or not. I use them when it suits me, otherwise I don't.

[Lacessit]

6 hours ago, Golden Triangle said:

I wish someone would tell my financial adviser that, I have a large chunk of pension fund sitting idle earning diddly squat because he reliably informs me that the markets at the moment are no good !!!

A financial adviser who is drawing fees from you while failing to build your wealth to any extent? Dear me, who would have thought it?

[Joe Mcseismic]

Why all the talk about leaving Thailand because of the retirement extension rule changes?

There are other options........like getting a multiple entry Non-Imm O. Just means that you will have to do visa runs. It also means no more 90 day reporting.

[Henryford]

On 4/8/2019 at 9:06 AM, NancyL said:

I know several elderly expats who, as they got to be 80 - 85+ in age, decided to simplify their financial life and bring all their money into Thailand to make it easier for their Thai partner/spouse to access it upon their passing.  And yes, it did simplify matters when they passed compared with men who had complex financial portfolios overseas, trying to milk out the last $1 in complex investments where the legal fees and time needed to access the money were staggering upon their passing, even with properly written Final Wills.

Yes at that age i would transfer the condo, car, bank account into my wife/girlfriends name so if i croak overnight she has the money there already.