UK parliament very likely to consider new Brexit referendum - Hammond

[wilcopops]

8 minutes ago, evadgib said:

If they didn't like the answer they shouldn't have asked the question.

Absolutely, that's why referendums are so questionable. In most countries any constitutional change requires a supermajority. As seen in previous national referendums in UK.

As I said before the Brexit referendum has set an unpleasant precedent and the result could be that Brexiteers will be hoist on their own petard

Edited April 14, 2019 by wilcopops

[luckyluke]

I understand what you mean Wilcopops,

 

but everything is relative. 

 

Thus assertions & logic are also. 

[luckyluke]

A contract is voidable if based on fraud or/and misleading information. 

 

Wonder if it applies to a referendum also.

 

I suppose it can be proven that both parties (Leavers-Remainers) were guilty of these practices. 

[ThaiBunny]

2 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

A contract is voidable if based on fraud or/and misleading information. Wonder if it applies to a referendum also. I suppose it can be proven that both parties (Leavers-Remainers) were guilty of these practices. 

The referendum would be regarded as an "invitation to treat" under contract law, so you have no contract that can be voided. You might succeed under trade practices or consumer law rather than contract law (I'm joking)

[metisdead]

An offensive post has been reported and removed.

[Loiner]

18 hours ago, ThaiPauly said:

The Government Office working on the "NO Deal" scenario was shut down a couple of days ago ....I have no idea why when if we can't agree a deal what is the other option besides another referendum?

I can assure you that contrary to the fake news, they are still working on it. The urgent activities to prepare for new systems going live have been suspended. The general exit planning is still underway.

[John1012]

On 4/12/2019 at 7:40 PM, geoffbezoz said:

He is stating the obvious really. Other then to a blind right wing Brexiteer it is obvious that only a second referendum will resolve the issue.  Hopefully this time it will be based on facts rather than fear mongering and free of bribes to the DUP.  This time it needs to ask the question to voters do you agree with the Brexit agreement as currently negotiated Terms or not ? A No vote should automatically trigger the revocation of Article 50 to ensure no further ambiguity.

No the question should be the same, leave or remain...Leave meaning what it states, all treaties become null and void...new negotiations for relationships with the EU. The British public are now completely aware of the despotic and totally undemocratic rule of Brussels, so they can choose between a Democratic independent nation or a region of the EUSSR, with no national democratic control and law making ability The situation has gone far beyond trade or migration issues, it is about the survival of the UK as an independent self governing nation. If the result is remain, the Monarchy and Parliament become irrelevant. Eventually all decision making and laws will be centralized in Brussels, as with the USSR whilst it existed. 

[geoffbezoz]

9 minutes ago, John1012 said:

No the question should be the same, leave or remain...Leave meaning what it states, all treaties become null and void...new negotiations for relationships with the EU. The British public are now completely aware of the despotic and totally undemocratic rule of Brussels, so they can choose between a Democratic independent nation or a region of the EUSSR, with no national democratic control and law making ability The situation has gone far beyond trade or migration issues, it is about the survival of the UK as an independent self governing nation. If the result is remain, the Monarchy and Parliament become irrelevant. Eventually all decision making and laws will be centralized in Brussels, as with the USSR whilst it existed. 

Frankly I am not convinced that your extreme view would indeed be so bad, but we are all entitled to our opinion. Many countries within the EU still maintain their monarchies so hence are not and will not be irrelevant. What has been displayed is that the British public selected a total of 650 people as MPs who, due to their partisan views and/or external interests have failed to agree on anything regarding Brexit and consequently the running of all other of the countries issue have been pushed to one side. In other words they are not governing. We do not have a fully functioning government or parliament currently so governance by the EU may not be such a bad thing compared to the 650 shower of sh$$s we have now IMHO.

Edited April 14, 2019 by geoffbezoz

[dick dasterdly]

24 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

Frankly I am not convinced that your extreme view would indeed be so bad, but we are all entitled to our opinion. Many countries within the EU still maintain their monarchies so hence are not and will not be irrelevant. What has been displayed is that the British public selected a total of 650 people as MPs who, due to their partisan views and/or external interests have failed to agree on anything regarding Brexit and consequently the running of all other of the countries issue have been pushed to one side. In other words they are not governing. We do not have a fully functioning government or parliament currently so governance by the EU may not be such a bad thing compared to the 650 shower of sh$$s we have now IMHO.

To a certain extent I agree with you, BUT we cannot allow our MPs (and the eu) to get away with over-riding the democratic referendum - that can only lead to an even more authoritarian govt.....

[geoffbezoz]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

To a certain extent I agree with you, BUT we cannot allow our MPs (and the eu) to get away with over-riding the democratic referendum - that can only lead to an even more authoritarian govt.....

Agreed and people should note and not  forget that what you have illustrated is exactly a similar parallel as to what provided the platform and window of opportunity to what occurred last century in that other European country.  But I still am of the opinion that the only way to influence and change it is by remaining within the EU, not leaving it.

[cleopatra2]

53 minutes ago, John1012 said:

No the question should be the same, leave or remain...Leave meaning what it states, all treaties become null and void...new negotiations for relationships with the EU. The British public are now completely aware of the despotic and totally undemocratic rule of Brussels, so they can choose between a Democratic independent nation or a region of the EUSSR, with no national democratic control and law making ability The situation has gone far beyond trade or migration issues, it is about the survival of the UK as an independent self governing nation. If the result is remain, the Monarchy and Parliament become irrelevant. Eventually all decision making and laws will be centralized in Brussels, as with the USSR whilst it existed. 

The referendum question was not leave or remain, with all treaties becoming null/void

 

The question was should the UK remain a member of the EU

 

It is still possible not to be a member of the EU , and participate , as the EFTA states do

[dick dasterdly]

34 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

Agreed and people should note and not  forget that what you have illustrated is exactly a similar parallel as to what provided the platform and window of opportunity to what occurred last century in that other European country.  But I still am of the opinion that the only way to influence and change it is by remaining within the EU, not leaving it.

So far, that has been proven not to work.  Have you noticed the eu making any changes as a result of what has happened?  Not only the uk referendum result, but also the rise of anti-eu parties in other countries?

[dick dasterdly]

Everyone (?) agrees that the eu needs to reform, but the eu has no intention of doing so.

[melvinmelvin]

22 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

The referendum question was not leave or remain, with all treaties becoming null/void

 

The question was should the UK remain a member of the EU

 

It is still possible not to be a member of the EU , and participate , as the EFTA states do

as the EFTA states should be modified to as most of the EFTA states

yes, still possible but requires time and a bunch of multilateral agreements and then more time

 

[geoffbezoz]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

So far, that has been proven not to work.  Have you noticed the eu making any changes as a result of what has happened?  Not only the uk referendum result, but also the rise of anti-eu parties in other countries?

Actually I have noticed something.  They are proposing to do away with daylight saving time from 2021

[melvinmelvin]

8 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

Actually I have noticed something.  They are proposing to do away with daylight saving time from 2021

 

leave the day and light behind, perpetual night and darkness are nigh

 

 

[transam]

11 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

Actually I have noticed something.  They are proposing to do away with daylight saving time from 2021

Yes, the EU is going to tell a couple of countries they cannot alter their clocks..????

The EU should adopt that British Gas ad........

 

 

[superal]

13 hours ago, candide said:

You can go on dreaming as much as you want that a significantly better deal was achievable......

It will not change reality. The EU position was predictable from the start and quite in line with previous agreements made, I.e. Norway, Switzerland, Canada, etc...

I do not agree when you say it was a predictable outcome as events have proved and even now they are inconclusive . The 3 countries you mention have differing agreements with the EU and the Swiss have been granted a 6 month extension / pause .  The more you look into the EU it is obvious they are building global trade agreements and the more contracts they secure the more potent they become . It is seen by some that the EU has ambitions to be dominant over the WTO in which they are a member . All complicated and messy  .

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, wilcopops said:

Support for the referendum result seems to be ebbing away and with good reason....

 

https://amp.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/matt-frei/man-who-wrote-article-50-it-should-be-revoked/

Well it's not and here's another good reason.

[candide]

29 minutes ago, superal said:

I do not agree when you say it was a predictable outcome as events have proved and even now they are inconclusive . The 3 countries you mention have differing agreements with the EU and the Swiss have been granted a 6 month extension / pause .  The more you look into the EU it is obvious they are building global trade agreements and the more contracts they secure the more potent they become . It is seen by some that the EU has ambitions to be dominant over the WTO in which they are a member . All complicated and messy  .

Of course, the agreements are different, but they reveal the same basic principles that have been applied.

As for the EU trade policy, that's the direct consequence of European economic integration. Contrary to what has been sometimes stated in this forum, the objective was not to keep trade inside the EU. The objective was to build a large enough internal market to allow economies of scale and specialisation, similar to large countries such as the USA. Now that's more or less achieved, it's time to expand trade outside Europe.

Edited April 14, 2019 by candide

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, luckyluke said:

 

Facts are statements that can be proven true or false. 

 

Opinions are matters of belief or ideas that can't be proven one way or the other. 

Facts are not statements. Opinions can be expressed in the form of statements that may be either true or false and which can, with evidence, be proven. 

Edited April 14, 2019 by nauseus

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, wilcopops said:

Absolutely, that's why referendums are so questionable. In most countries any constitutional change requires a supermajority. As seen in previous national referendums in UK.

As I said before the Brexit referendum has set an unpleasant precedent and the result could be that Brexiteers will be hoist on their own petard

When has any previous national referendum in UK required a supermajority?

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, geoffbezoz said:

Actually I have noticed something.  They are proposing to do away with daylight saving time from 2021

Should have known, there would be nothing close to a sensible reply ☹️.

[geoffbezoz]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Should have known, there would be nothing close to a sensible reply ☹️.

dick, that is a dasterdly comment of yours and very much of concern to Shetland sheep farmers.

[superal]

For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone wants to be controlled by an outside agency such as the EU . I have spoken to many Europeans  who hate the EU for what it has done to their countries with immigration , unemployment , crime rates up , the changing face of their towns  being the main reasons . The folks who I talked to are willing a Brexit and hoping their will be a domino effect to other EU countries. However the voice of the UK public is often ignored by the politicians and there will come a time when peoples demonstrations will become prominent .  Hopefully as strong as the French but without the violence .   History will show the demise of EU countries customs , identity & traditions if this EU ogre is not restrained .  Europe was a much happier place 30 years ago but now is going down a dark road .

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, geoffbezoz said:

Agreed and people should note and not  forget that what you have illustrated is exactly a similar parallel as to what provided the platform and window of opportunity to what occurred last century in that other European country.  But I still am of the opinion that the only way to influence and change it is by remaining within the EU, not leaving it.

 

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

So far, that has been proven not to work.  Have you noticed the eu making any changes as a result of what has happened?  Not only the uk referendum result, but also the rise of anti-eu parties in other countries?

 

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Everyone (?) agrees that the eu needs to reform, but the eu has no intention of doing so.

 

1 hour ago, geoffbezoz said:

Actually I have noticed something.  They are proposing to do away with daylight saving time from 2021

 

4 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

dick, that is a dasterdly comment of yours and very much of concern to Shetland sheep farmers.

Fair enough, and I give up as I've no doubt you are sure that change can happen from 'within'.

 

Anyone with any sense (IMO of course) knows that the eu has no intention of reform.  They are very happy with the current arrangement where they are paid way too much, as are their staff.  Moving locations (at taxpayers' expense) not a problem that should be addressed.....

[Chelseafan]

6 hours ago, geoffbezoz said:

I can see logic is not your strong point in an attempt to refute a statement of fact by another poster !!   As both my elderly parents passed away in the 1990,s ( 1993/1998), then  as I stated they only took part in one referendum in their lifetimes.

 

Further, I thought the Scottish Referendum was only applicable to those in Scotland ? I didn't realise the whole of the UK, like the 2016 referendum vote, had the opportunity to take part in the Scottish referendum also has you have suggested ????.

You said

 

" Depends whose or what lifetime is used as reference I guess.  There was one in my parents lifetime but already two in mine. However there were none in my pet dogs lifetime. "

 

You didn't say whether your parents (or dog) had participated.

 

I said ASSUMING you're parents were over 44 then they would have SEEN 4 referendums. I didn't say they participated in them including the Scottish referendum . If they had passed away then that's a different kettle of fish

 

 

[nauseus]

30 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

dick, that is a dasterdly comment of yours and very much of concern to Shetland sheep farmers.

Don't worry, Geoff. Muttley will have them woollies well under control.

[dick dasterdly]

25 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

 

 

Fair enough, and I give up as I've no doubt you are sure that change can happen from 'within'.

 

Anyone with any sense (IMO of course) knows that the eu has no intention of reform.  They are very happy with the current arrangement where they are paid way too much, as are their staff.  Moving locations (at taxpayers' expense) not a problem that should be addressed.....

I'm so tired of repeating the obvious.

 

The eu has no intention of reform as it pays so well, and increases their power......

[dick dasterdly]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Don't worry, Geoff. Muttley will have them woollies well under control.

Entirely off topic, but sadly my dogs are entirely useless when it comes to 'protection' (I think).

 

To look on the bright side, one of them barks madly whenever anyone comes close to the house during the night ????.