Do you believe in God and why

[Tippaporn]

7 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Hey, i always back you up when you post something which makes sense.

Unfortunately, it doesn't happen very often, but it's not my fault. 

Yet, if you eagerly look for the truth, inside and outside, and in the middle, I'm confident that you will find something. Soon or later. 

It'll never happen without a serious examination of and reconsideration of the validity of the ideas he currently holds.  I doubt he goes there.   Could be many reasons.  The sad desire to be "right" no matter what might be one.  Throughout my long experience I've found that most people wouldn't even attempt to look at what they belief with any true objectivity.  Their intent is to merely defend it to the death.

And when severely challenged resort to the old personal destruction tact like, "To many ramble around stating beliefs as facts, and believe in it, and when finding someone who have as wild  beliefs as themselves, petting their back and backing each other up."  Utter nonsense but when one is out of valid arguments this is what they're reduced to.  Sad.

[Hummin]

19 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Yes, you are certainly correct in that you like to cherry pick.  The tough questions, the questions that require hard thinking, those are not the ones you pick.  You're like a politician who has a media interview and all they ask are softball questions.  Once during o crisis, which one I can't remember, Biden was eating an ice cream cone in front of an ice cream shop whilst surrounded by reporters.  "President Biden, what ice cream flavour do you like?"

Here's the post again.

  

Now I've been explaining what ideas are and pointing out that they produce the world we live in.  Like children's building blocks people pick and choose amongst all the ideas available, all of the possible ideas which exist, and create not only your personal experience but along with the interactions of other entities just like yourself so together mass reality is created.  From your individual choices you create your life, your particular experience to every last detail.  Your life, and everyone else's, is a reflection of the ideas one chooses to accept as being 'true.'

Ideas...
...are mental transformations of energy by an entity into physical reality.
Idea constructions...
...are transformations of ideas into physical reality.

Action...
...is idea in motion.

 

Just to clarify, every action you take is based on an idea that is in your head on which you choose to act upon.  No exceptions.  No one acts randomly.

In my post above I'm pointing out that for all of it's faults, and there are many, at least religion provides the individual with the ideas of self worth and purpose.  Those accepted ideas are then acted on in one way or another depending on the individual's unique propensities.   Those ideas generally provide beneficial results for the individual and for the rest of the world.

 

Now here's an incomplete list of the building blocks, ideas, of science which are also used to create a different kind, or a different version of the world.

There is no purpose in life other than the reproduction of the species.

There is no control in one's life.

Their is no value in life.

The survival of the fittest determines who lives and who dies.

Emotions are only due to the chemical interactions in one's brain.
Biology does not determine sex.

Personal choice is an illusion.

If you were to design a functional, operational world are these the ideas you would choose to build that reality?  And yet these ideas are being used.  If the physical world is a reflection of the ideas we hold then these ideas can only produce one result.  They cannot produce anything different.  That is an impossibility.

Now take a look at the world around you and identify areas in which these ideas play out, e.g. manifest.  Do you like the results?  If you don't thenyou best get to work and examine the ideas you personally subscribe to as 'true' and do some hard questioning as to whether or not they are beliefs about reality or beliefs taken as conditions of reality.  Big difference.

"Sometimes we just have to make certain decissions in life that also benefits us and the society."

I'll repeat, you cannot discover the secrets of life by desecrating it.  Sacrificing the life of other living creatures to sustain your own is a horrible idea.  It plays out in many, many more ways than you are probably aware of, with equally horrid outcomes.  There are other ways but unfortunately science rejects those approaches.

 

Now be brave enough to address the tough questions.

To be true, people who are smarter than me, work in the field, struggle to answer with certainty about your questions. I have delt with tough littérateur and hard brain work before, and as true it is said, the more I know, the more I realize I do not know. 
 

I know enough to not laugh about Elon Musk and make a rant out of a short video clip from youtube. 
 

However I believe human life is not more worth than any life on this planet. We have just be able to survive on this planet for the moment, because the climate  and other superior creatures have been either distinct, or not evolved yet. That can be a virus with coincidence happenings leading to a chain reaction wiping us out. 
 

Yes, I do not believe our presence is of more importance than any other life on the planet

 

Yes I believe in evolution because of our dna can make us adopt to different climates and living conditions. All species who have been separated and given different living conditions, have evolved and adopted by time to survive changing environments. 
 

How do we have control over our life 100% when everything is changing around us from day to day out of randomly happenings! That constantly making you changing your decision’s and mind because of new possibilities and new challenges for good and bad? 
 

Do you believe in fixed pattern and fixed challenges in this life to evolve

 

For now, it seems we have changed fittest of survival for time being in our part of the world, other not so much. Still there is drawbacks that genetic weaker manage to populate more than strong or stronger individuals with resourches and capabilities  who obvious in these times have less kids than the weaker ones!

 

Emotions can be many things, especially genetic memories, experiences, and how you instinctively react and learn to react to different situations. However I believe in our brains plasticity and know I can change my brain by training, and create new reaction patterns. 
 

Off course we have personal choices, but still surprised I sometimes make choices I never thought I would do. I know from my marketing school, and also life experiences how easy we are to manipulate, so 100 % free personal choice, I do not believe in, especially these days with algorithms controlling your personal choices on Internet and especially social media. I would say As dangerous trapped in one party country, one state media, or any extreme religious society. 
 

Why do you believe life have any value, when you look out far beyond what you can see with your own eyes? 
 

Galaxies being born and gone in such dramatic ways as we possible can imagine as we speaking. 

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

It'll never happen without a serious examination of and reconsideration of the validity of the ideas he currently holds.  I doubt he goes there.   Could be many reasons.  The sad desire to be "right" no matter what might be one.  Throughout my long experience I've found that most people wouldn't even attempt to look at what they belief with any true objectivity.  Their intent is to merely defend it to the death.

And when severely challenged resort to the old personal destruction tact like, "To many ramble around stating beliefs as facts, and believe in it, and when finding someone who have as wild  beliefs as themselves, petting their back and backing each other up."  Utter nonsense but when one is out of valid arguments this is what they're reduced to.  Sad.

I entirely share your feelings. 

It's ironic though, and it makes me giggle, that we are actually surrounded by a majority of people who find comforting to conform to the official narrative, and then accuse spiritual minded folks who actually search for the truth, of being against science. ????

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

What workable cheap therapy was that? There never was and still isn't any such  thing.

This thread is about belief in God, or the supernatural if you prefer, but feel free to do any scientific research you find appropriate. 

[Hummin]

28 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Hey, i always back you up when you post something which makes sense.

Unfortunately, it doesn't happen very often, but it's not my fault. 

Yet, if you eagerly look for the truth, inside and outside, and in the middle, I'm confident that you will find something. Soon or later. 

I live perfectly good with my life no matter what anyone here thinks about it. To me it is more important to feel connected with myself, my close ones, and the nature I am allowed to take part of and enjoy. 
 

 

Right now packing up the car with tent, sleeping bags, dry food and fishing equipment, and heading out tomorow for new adventures closer to my maker fishing, picking berries and mushrooms. 
 

Then I know where I belong and where I am. Home

[The Hammer2021]

1 minute ago, mauGR1 said:

This thread is about belief in God, or the supernatural if you prefer, but feel free to do any scientific research you find appropriate. 

I have done.

 

Regarding God belief- an infantile  fantasy that can be channelled into good or evil but utterly irrelevant  to science.

[The Hammer2021]

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I live perfectly good with my life no matter what anyone here thinks about it. To me it is more important to feel connected with myself, my close ones, and the nature I am allowed to take part of and enjoy. 
 

 

Right now packing up the car with tent, sleeping bags, dry food and fishing equipment, and heading out tomorow for new adventures closer to my maker fishing, picking berries and mushrooms. 
 

Then I know where I belong and where I am. Home

Maker? Allah?

[mauGR1]

7 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I live perfectly good with my life no matter what anyone here thinks about it. To me it is more important to feel connected with myself, my close ones, and the nature I am allowed to take part of and enjoy. 
 

 

Right now packing up the car with tent, sleeping bags, dry food and fishing equipment, and heading out tomorow for new adventures closer to my maker fishing, picking berries and mushrooms. 
 

Then I know where I belong and where I am. Home

All is perfect then, everyone is happy. ⁰

[metisdead]

An off topic Covid conspiracy troll post and a reply has been removed.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

33 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

It'll never happen without a serious examination of and reconsideration of the validity of the ideas he currently holds.  I doubt he goes there.   Could be many reasons.  The sad desire to be "right" no matter what might be one.  Throughout my long experience I've found that most people wouldn't even attempt to look at what they belief with any true objectivity.  Their intent is to merely defend it to the death.

And when severely challenged resort to the old personal destruction tact like, "To many ramble around stating beliefs as facts, and believe in it, and when finding someone who have as wild  beliefs as themselves, petting their back and backing each other up."  Utter nonsense but when one is out of valid arguments this is what they're reduced to.  Sad.

Hummin has a good point and I think it's good to have doubt but you have your right to believe things based on your own experience.

You say you are 100 per cent free. I am not sure what your definition of being 100 per cent free is - sounds scary if you did control everything in your world so you could do what you like with no concern or repercussions. If that's not what you mean then it sounds like your freedom has limitations.

Can someone actually control their thoughts and ideas? Sure, we can influence them by our actions and lifestyle, but not in a complete way.  Discipline controls your actions not your deeper thoughts in my opinion.  Would someone who is 100 per cent free, that can control their mind and as such control the outside world, have the ability to make mistakes. That just shows that control of the mind would encompass something huge - not just lessening random thoughts or something similar. 

If someone could control the outside world by their thoughts they must have to be concerned they might think the wrong thing and cause damage.

You say science does not put worth on life. What is the standard or measuring stick of worth to which science might have an opinion? Worth to who? If someone's life has worth to me then that is that - I would rather admit I am not sure if it has some objective worth than say that life has worth because someone told me it is so.

You say science says freedom of choice is an illusion. Science doesn't say there is no freedom of choice. Sure, biology makes us what we are, but we are self operating and can choose to buy this or that brand, or do this or that. Science doesn't preclude this. Though the biological imperative pushes us in a certain direction this is tempered by our experiences and our free choices.  

Some here criticise science by cherry picking examples while not acknowledging the massive positive achievements and findings in the last 100 or 200 years and this includes vaccines. It's fine and sometimes correct to criticise the greed of business or the flaws of an individual but to be dismissive of the achievements and the wild success of science, compared to religion and spirituality,  is to not to see reality in my opinion. I am talking success that can be measured and seen. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Fat is a type of crazy

[Tippaporn]

20 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

What workable cheap therapy was that? There never was and still isn't any such  thing.

You're 100% free, The Hammer2021.  Free to think whatever you like.  Whether it's true or not.  You are also free to be as blind as you want.  You are free to reject any and all truths despite evidence if that is your desire.

Just remember, though, others are not like you.

[mauGR1]

8 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

I have done.

 

Regarding God belief- an infantile  fantasy that can be channelled into good or evil but utterly irrelevant  to science.

Why irrelevant ?

I think that it's very interesting to know what people believe. And the fact that apparently people need to believe something. 

[Hummin]

3 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Maker? Allah?

Comes with many names, but my maker is the nature, everything we see, touch and feel all is one some say. What do you think? 
 

Allah is just another name for the same everyone see as the creator. Where I come from we say Gud which is the same as God or Allah just different language, same meaning. 
 

Manitou is great and have been great to me

 

[The Hammer2021]

The well spring of religion in the USA is Puritanism. The ones who set out in the Mayflower, and set out their path of genocidal savagery in name of God.

But The Puritans left England for America not because they couldn't be Puritans in their mother country, but because they were not allowed to force others to become Puritans; in the New World, of course, they could and did.

Gore Vidal

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

The well spring of religion in the USA is Puritanism. The ones who set out in the Mayflower, and set out their path of genocidal savagery in name of God.

But The Puritans left England for America not because they couldn't be Puritans in their mother country, but because they were not allowed to force others to become Puritans; in the New World, of course, they could and did.

Gore Vidal

Many hide behind ideology or religion to act like criminals, but ideologies, right or wrong, don't kill people by themselves. 

[The Hammer2021]

The 'ME and MY maker syndrome used to lead me to ask:" Why did YOUR maker create childhood  cancer? Not just cancer but a special gift from God to hurt kids?"

BUT - then we have the arrogance  of modesty - the homespun shucks me an my maker.....THUS

"I suppose that one reason I have always detested religion is its sly tendency to insinuate the idea that the universe is designed with 'you' in mind or, even worse, that there is a divine plan into which one fits whether one knows it or not. This kind of modesty is too arrogant for me."

Christopher Hitchens, Hitch 22: A Memoir

[AsianAtHeart]

25 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

The 'ME and MY maker syndrome used to lead me to ask:" Why did YOUR maker create childhood  cancer? Not just cancer but a special gift from God to hurt kids?"

BUT - then we have the arrogance  of modesty - the homespun shucks me an my maker.....THUS

"I suppose that one reason I have always detested religion is its sly tendency to insinuate the idea that the universe is designed with 'you' in mind or, even worse, that there is a divine plan into which one fits whether one knows it or not. This kind of modesty is too arrogant for me."

Christopher Hitchens, Hitch 22: A Memoir

But what happiness can be derived through mocking?  Cynicism, satire, scorn, derision, antagonism, sarcasm, ridicule, and the like all serve to follow their own dark rule: "Misery loves company."  If one is not happy, he or she oftentimes will take pleasure in bringing others into the same miserable condition of unhappiness.

 

When one person is drowning, and another swims out to help, the one drowning will typically cling to the rescuer, pushing the rescuer down below the water in order to elevate himself or herself enough for a breath of air.  This panic-driven response, however, often costs the life of the rescuer, in addition to the one who was drowning.

 

So it is with those who seek to make others miserable like themselves.  No one benefits in the exchange.

 

This is why God's amazing gift of love surpasses human comprehension.  We can understand more easily how misery would love company than we can grasp why God would choose to suffer, even to the death of His Son, that we might have true happiness.  Many will choose to continue in their addiction to misery...because there is a certain "satisfaction" that comes with self-pity and the thinking that one's own state is worse than that of others.  But in the end, this "satisfaction" will lead only to the deepest pain.  Far better it would be to, if necessary, even suffer a little indignity, eat one's humble pie and admit his or her faults, in order to escape the pits of despair and plant one's feet on the solid ground of happiness.

Edited August 28, 2022 by AsianAtHeart

[Sunmaster]

4 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

It'll never happen without a serious examination of and reconsideration of the validity of the ideas he currently holds.  I doubt he goes there.   Could be many reasons.  The sad desire to be "right" no matter what might be one.  Throughout my long experience I've found that most people wouldn't even attempt to look at what they belief with any true objectivity.  Their intent is to merely defend it to the death.

And when severely challenged resort to the old personal destruction tact like, "To many ramble around stating beliefs as facts, and believe in it, and when finding someone who have as wild  beliefs as themselves, petting their back and backing each other up."  Utter nonsense but when one is out of valid arguments this is what they're reduced to.  Sad.

To be fair, I always found @Hummin's posts to be open-minded, respectful towards other beliefs and with a healthy dose of skepticism. And that's already a lot more than many other occasional posters were able to do.

You can't expect for people to change their beliefs from one moment to another, regardless if you think you presented your reasoning in a flawlessly logical manner or not. I think people progress at their own pace and even if sometimes it's frustrating to witness, it's not our duty to force such changes.
 

[Tippaporn]

57 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

To be fair, I always found @Hummin's posts to be open-minded, respectful towards other beliefs and with a healthy dose of skepticism. And that's already a lot more than many other occasional posters were able to do.

You can't expect for people to change their beliefs from one moment to another, regardless if you think you presented your reasoning in a flawlessly logical manner or not. I think people progress at their own pace and even if sometimes it's frustrating to witness, it's not our duty to force such changes.

I agree with you assessment of Hummin, Sunmaster.  I have no expectation of changing anyone's beliefs, though.  And I agree that everyone progresses at their own pace.  My intention is to challenge people's beliefs with the aim of bringing them face to face with them so that they might actually examine them.  Whether they do so or not is always up to the individual poster.  But I'm keeping a keen eye out for a positive response in that regard.

But it's not enough to simply challenge them so they may recognise that their ideas my very well be erroneous, of little value, and even detrimental.  Another framework must be offered as a replacement.  Again, if freely chosen.  On the other hand I welcome any poster to challenge the framework I provide.  That's part of the process of changing one's beliefs.

It might be fair to say that my approach is heavy handed . . . what you might be implying when you say it's not our duty to attempt to force change upon anyone.  But this is a learning process for me as well.  I am only too well aware of the calm, gentle, respectful and often time humourous approach used by Seth and others like him.  That is the approach I prefer to use.  But Seth and others do not speak to audiences which can be quite belligerent and mean spirited.  Again, this is a learning process for me.

 

Believe me, there's a great deal of tug and pull in my mind as to why I commit so many hours debating ideas which I know beforehand will get promptly rejected.  There's something within me, though, that sees value in my efforts.  I'm still on the fence and I trust that in time I'll know which way to go.  One day I may be gone for good.  And you'll be the first to know what decision I've made for myself.

 

By the way, I very much appreciate your post and keeping me in check. 

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Tippaporn

[Tippaporn]

Some after thoughts on my approach, Sunmaster . . .

I'll say that my approach is to be firm.  Some might call it hard love.  I've chucked the idea of being Mr. Nice guy.  That hasn't worked well for me.  Now I, more than most, understand that demeaning anyone is to demean ones self.  But, I have no qualms about demeaning a poster's ideas.  It is never the poster I attack, when I do attack.  It is the ideas a poster promotes.

[AsianAtHeart]

8 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

Can someone actually control their thoughts and ideas? Sure, we can influence them by our actions and lifestyle, but not in a complete way.  Discipline controls your actions not your deeper thoughts in my opinion.  Would someone who is 100 per cent free, that can control their mind and as such control the outside world, have the ability to make mistakes. That just shows that control of the mind would encompass something huge - not just lessening random thoughts or something similar. 

Thoughts are encapsulated in words (usually).  It's a mental dialogue one has with himself or herself.  And can those words be controlled?  Yes, but not easily.  It takes diligence in monitoring one's own thoughts and not permitting them to wander to undesirable or forbidden themes.

 

The Bible addresses the "words" aspect in several ways, beginning with Jesus' statement that "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh" (Matthew 12:34).  The heart, of course, represents the desires or thoughts of the mind.  Taking this one step further, the "tongue" (words spoken) is addressed in James.  "For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2). "But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison." (James 3:8).

 

Ouch!  According to this, we all have untameable tongues!  If the tongue speaks out of the abundance of the "heart," and the tongue cannot be tamed, what does that say of taming one's thoughts? 

 

It boils down to this: The thoughts cannot be controlled by human strength alone.  Divine help is needed.  But divine help is offered, and available, for those who ask and who seek it diligently.

 

As an old saying states, "God helps those who help themselves."  If one prays and asks for help to control his or her thoughts, the next step is to do as much as lies within his or her own power to accomplish this, i.e. answer one's own prayer as far as one is able.  When God sees our faith in action, He assists in those areas where we are yet weak.

 

In my personal experience, I have learned to control my own habits of thought, and by this means I was able to rein in physical habits as well.  Our actions start with thoughts and feelings (attitudes) of the mind.  Only by exercising vigilance over the thoughts can one ever hope to be victorious over the actions.  And the process takes time.  It takes time to make or break a habit; yet old habits can be replaced with new ones, and in due time (weeks in my case), the habits have changed and it becomes easier to maintain the changes.  It will never be safe, though, to entirely relax one's guard...at least not so long as the Tempter still prowls the planet looking for victims to prey upon--and he remembers where we have been weak.

 

The mind is where it all starts, which, if carefully guarded, will lead to successes in its train.

 

Thoughts/Feelings --> Words --> Actions --> Habits --> Character --> Destiny

[Tippaporn]

Well folks, I've just fallen off the fence.

I was raised a Catholic and it didn't take me long to perceive the many fallacies of religion.  For instance, God is everywhere and within everything.  Which means God is in hell as well.  Or the fact that one could be a heinous murderer, repent, accept Jesus Christ as his Saviour, and get his golden pass at the pearly gates.  Yet some poor indigenous African who has no knowledge of Christ and the Christian God would go to hell for the mere transgression of not knowing of their existence.  Or eternal damnation to hell and any hope for redemption gone for eternity as well.  Does anyone have any idea how long eternity is?  Or Heaven as a final resting place.  For all eternity, too.  Imagine a place of pure perfection.  No further growth is possible.  You've reached the top rung of the ladder and there's no place else to go.  There's nothing to learn any longer since all is known.  No more challenges in one's existence as you win at any game all of the time.  (Not sure how that works if you're playing against an opponent - do both win?)  Any state of perfection is the true definition of death.  And there is no such thing.

Science, I've learned, holds as many or more . . . I think more . . . fallacious ideas than even religion.  While I credit religion with at least providing the world with some decent values and worthy personal traits to aspire to science on the other hand offers a dead universe.  Morals don't exist as those come out of the untrustworthy subjective mind so anything goes.  The only goal of science is to harness and control the entirety of existence.  Which is a scary thought to put that kind of power in the hands of people when those same people are making an absolute mess of the world.

 

Don't get me wrong.  Both religion and science have tremendous value.  But as far as providing comprehensive explanations, not so much.

So where else to find answers to who and what we are and what this reality truly is and how it works?  How about the people themselves?  Advice from family, friends, teachers, coworkers, professors, scientists, physicians?  Bar girls?  I've heard every theory of life imaginable from people.  Most make no sense and their logic holds no water.  Theories from the downright bizarre to fairly rationale ideas but faulty when the surface is scratched.

As I listened to what people believe throughout life I find that most of it is jumbled, there's little to no cohesion, much of it is outright contradictory (you know, when you believe one thing under one circumstance and it's polar opposite in another circumstance), for certain it lacks comprehensiveness (meaning it doesn't try to fit everything together to cover every imaginable aspect of existence . . . just a bunch of bits and pieces which don't fit together as a whole), a great portion of beliefs aren't even beneficial to the individual . . . in fact many are exceedingly detrimental - but who cares, so many beliefs which are irreconcilable, and I could go on.

Now the funniest part, to me, as I've gone through life talking with all sorts of people from diverse backgrounds is that during an exchange of ideas where I attempt to introduce new thought or ideas most look at me cross eyed as if I've just been released from Bedlam.  Yet when I look at some of the beliefs being expressed, and defended to the death when challenged despite their detriment, I'm the one then looking cross eyed when I consider that most of the beliefs are as I described above.  How is it possible that ideas which hold logic, are sensible, fit together, are comprehensive get laughed at and worse while the most bizarre ideas are readily accepted as the norm by most?  Beats me.  My brother once quipped, "I'd rather be sane and thought of as insane than to be insane only so that I would be thought of as sane."  I found that to be good advice.

My search for answers has not been in vain, though.  To the contrary, it's been extremely successful.  Not that I could ever convince anyone of the fact even if I wanted to.  I've come to the conclusion that most of the discussion here is with folks who, while extremely intelligent, have zero desire to know anything more than what they currently know.  Not all, I'll add.  And so there's no point in attempting to move an immovable object.  Belief is easy enough to change.  Conviction of a belief, on the other hand, is the immovable object.  Besides, most are quite satisfied with the extent of their knowing.  And in the end that's all that matters, right?

So with that, au revoir.

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Tippaporn

[Fat is a type of crazy]

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

Well folks, I've just fallen off the fence.

I was raised a Catholic and it didn't take me long to perceive the many fallacies of religion.  For instance, God is everywhere and within everything.  Which means God is in hell as well.  Or the fact that one could be a heinous murderer, repent, accept Jesus Christ as his Saviour, and get his golden pass at the pearly gates.  Yet some poor indigenous African who has no knowledge of Christ and the Christian God would go to hell for the mere transgression of not knowing of their existence.  Or eternal damnation to hell and any hope for redemption gone for eternity as well.  Does anyone have any idea how long eternity is?  Or Heaven as a final resting place.  For all eternity, too.  Imagine a place of pure perfection.  No further growth is possible.  You've reached the top rung of the ladder and there's no place else to go.  There's nothing to learn any longer since all is known.  No more challenges in one's existence as you win at any game all of the time.  (Not sure how that works if you're playing against an opponent - do both win?)  Any state of perfection is the true definition of death.  And there is no such thing.

Science, I've learned, holds as many or more . . . I think more . . . fallacious ideas than even religion.  While I credit religion with at least providing the world with some decent values and worthy personal traits to aspire to science on the other hand offers a dead universe.  Morals don't exist as those come out of the untrustworthy subjective mind so anything goes.  The only goal of science is to harness and control the entirety of existence.  Which is a scary thought to put that kind of power in the hands of people when those same people are making an absolute mess of the world.

 

Don't get me wrong.  Both religion and science have tremendous value.  But as far as providing comprehensive explanations, not so much.

So where else to find answers to who and what we are and what this reality truly is and how it works?  How about the people themselves?  Advice from family, friends, teachers, coworkers, professors, scientists, physicians?  Bar girls?  I've heard every theory of life imaginable from people.  Most make no sense and their logic holds no water.  Theories from the downright bizarre to fairly rationale ideas but faulty when the surface is scratched.

As I listened to what people believe throughout life I find that most of it is jumbled, there's little to no cohesion, much of it is outright contradictory (you know, when you believe one thing under one circumstance and it's polar opposite in another circumstance), for certain it lacks comprehensiveness (meaning it doesn't try to fit everything together to cover every imaginable aspect of existence . . . just a bunch of bits and pieces which don't fit together as a whole), a great portion of beliefs aren't even beneficial to the individual . . . in fact many are exceedingly detrimental - but who cares, so many beliefs which are irreconcilable, and I could go on.

Now the funniest part, to me, as I've gone through life talking with all sorts of people from diverse backgrounds is that during an exchange of ideas where I attempt to introduce new thought or ideas most look at me cross eyed as if I've just been released from Bedlam.  Yet when I look at some of the beliefs being expressed, and defended to the death when challenged despite their detriment, I'm the one then looking cross eyed when I consider that most of the beliefs are as I described above.  How is it possible that ideas which hold logic, are sensible, fit together, are comprehensive get laughed at and worse while the most bizarre ideas are readily accepted as the norm by most?  Beats me.  My brother once quipped, "I'd rather be sane and thought of as insane than to be insane only so that I would be thought of as sane."  I found that to be good advice.

My search for answers has not been in vain, though.  To the contrary, it's been extremely successful.  Not that I could ever convince anyone of the fact even if I wanted to.  I've come to the conclusion that most of the discussion here is with folks who, while extremely intelligent, have zero desire to know anything more than what they currently know.  Not all, I'll add.  And so there's no point in attempting to move an immovable object.  Belief is easy enough to change.  Conviction of a belief, on the other hand, is the immovable object.  Besides, most are quite satisfied with the extent of their knowing.  And in the end that's all that matters, right?

So with that, au revoir.

 

This post is not a direct reply but a broader comment on the discussion. If someone is trying to explain something quite detailed and those who reply are a bit critical with the same old science and proof arguments - I can imagine it can seem a bit pointless. An artist might have a discussion with a scientist but get bored or frustrated if the scientist kept bringing it back to methodical questions rather than giving new ideas a chance to resonate and develop.

If, though, the artist makes definitive claims such as 'I am 100 per cent free' that sets off a defensive mechanism in the scientific mind and raises issues that need a response such as how is it being defined and what are the implications of such freedom.  If someone said something like  'I feel my beliefs are leading me on a path towards freedom and I get insights that sometimes feel like actual freedom' that doesn't need follow up as it's more talking about an experience rather than a definitive fact. 

It's the same with a discussion of science. If someone says 'I appreciate scientific method but life is short and I feel what I am experiencing is real and here it is ..' that's fine in my opinion and the discussion doesn't have to go to proof. If  someone though comes across as  too defensive to the point of saying science is wrong, a definitive statement, or making statements about the application of science that can seem wrong, not to  push back can feel like logic losing to faith.  

Criticism of scientists, or where scientific discovery is leading, or whether the lack of a formal morality to counter science may lead to bad things are fair points to raise but..again..if it's couched in definitive black and white terms I feel the achievements and benefits of science, and the shortcomings of alternative forms of morality and or of ways of finding the reality of life, can be raised as a counterpoint.  

Edited August 28, 2022 by Fat is a type of crazy

[mauGR1]

6 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Some after thoughts on my approach, Sunmaster . . .

I'll say that my approach is to be firm.  Some might call it hard love.  I've chucked the idea of being Mr. Nice guy.  That hasn't worked well for me.  Now I, more than most, understand that demeaning anyone is to demean ones self.  But, I have no qualms about demeaning a poster's ideas.  It is never the poster I attack, when I do attack.  It is the ideas a poster promotes.

Very well said.

I can say that I've been through these thoughts a few times, and it's not easy to be perfect all the time.

Sometimes being kind and humble works well, sometimes not.

In some case, i was encouraging a certain poster to keep on posting, only to get more nonsense, platitudes, misunderstandings and personal attacks in exchange, just for trying to be a nice guy.

Saying what i really think is better imho, even at the risk of hurting others and myself, there are already too many mild-mannered liars on this planet, what good are they doing?

After all, wisdom comes from pain.

So, for what is worth, thanks again for your great contribution to this thread.

[mauGR1]

10 hours ago, The Hammer2021 said:

The 'ME and MY maker syndrome used to lead me to ask:" Why did YOUR maker create childhood  cancer? Not just cancer but a special gift from God to hurt kids?"

This question is one of the best weapons of the agnostics. 

If God is perfect, why torture the innocent?

We have, i think, to be aware that life is tough, and we have to see the bad to understand what is good. 

That's life, like it or not.

We have also the choice to be part of the problem or part of the solution. 

While complaining about the state of the world is legitimate, we should also be grateful for what we have.

A true Spiritual Science is an attempt, imho, to improve, little step by little step, one's consciousness, hoping to improve the physical world as well.

[mauGR1]

5 hours ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Thoughts are encapsulated in words (usually).  It's a mental dialogue one has with himself or herself.  And can those words be controlled?  Yes, but not easily.  It takes diligence in monitoring one's own thoughts and not permitting them to wander to undesirable or forbidden themes.

 

The Bible addresses the "words" aspect in several ways, beginning with Jesus' statement that "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh" (Matthew 12:34).  The heart, of course, represents the desires or thoughts of the mind.  Taking this one step further, the "tongue" (words spoken) is addressed in James.  "For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2). "But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison." (James 3:8).

 

Ouch!  According to this, we all have untameable tongues!  If the tongue speaks out of the abundance of the "heart," and the tongue cannot be tamed, what does that say of taming one's thoughts? 

 

It boils down to this: The thoughts cannot be controlled by human strength alone.  Divine help is needed.  But divine help is offered, and available, for those who ask and who seek it diligently.

 

As an old saying states, "God helps those who help themselves."  If one prays and asks for help to control his or her thoughts, the next step is to do as much as lies within his or her own power to accomplish this, i.e. answer one's own prayer as far as one is able.  When God sees our faith in action, He assists in those areas where we are yet weak.

 

In my personal experience, I have learned to control my own habits of thought, and by this means I was able to rein in physical habits as well.  Our actions start with thoughts and feelings (attitudes) of the mind.  Only by exercising vigilance over the thoughts can one ever hope to be victorious over the actions.  And the process takes time.  It takes time to make or break a habit; yet old habits can be replaced with new ones, and in due time (weeks in my case), the habits have changed and it becomes easier to maintain the changes.  It will never be safe, though, to entirely relax one's guard...at least not so long as the Tempter still prowls the planet looking for victims to prey upon--and he remembers where we have been weak.

 

The mind is where it all starts, which, if carefully guarded, will lead to successes in its train.

 

Thoughts/Feelings --> Words --> Actions --> Habits --> Character --> Destiny

Very agreeable post, which i quote entirely. 

But, but, the fear to offend or being offended should not deter us from discussing the things which really matter.

 

As in Plato's cave metaphor, the ones who have seen the light, have a moral duty to try to wake up the ones who are in the darkness, even if aware of the disbelief and scorn and hostility which they are going to meet. 

 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

11 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Very agreeable post, which i quote entirely. 

But, but, the fear to offend or being offended should not deter us from discussing the things which really matter.

 

As in Plato's cave metaphor, the ones who have seen the light, have a moral duty to try to wake up the ones who are in the darkness, even if aware of the disbelief and scorn and hostility which they are going to meet. 

 

I take your point. I think in some ways it's best to leave this topic to those who have an opinion about what god is - rather than those who dissect the opinions and outlooks of the believers. I hereby retire from this topic and leave it to those who have something godly or spiritual to say, as pushing back on such ideas based on my idea of logic, doesn't seem to be useful. 

[mauGR1]

38 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I take your point. I think in some ways it's best to leave this topic to those who have an opinion about what god is - rather than those who dissect the opinions and outlooks of the believers. I hereby retire from this topic and leave it to those who have something godly or spiritual to say, as pushing back on such ideas based on my idea of logic, doesn't seem to be useful. 

I take your point too, and your contribution is appreciated. Yet, i think that debate is useful, as in any debate we have the chance to test the validity, or lack of validity, of our opinions. 

In other words, if one has to adopt a scientific method to understand reality, one has to listen to all the opinions available, even the opinions which we don't like.

In the same way, a botanical scientist has to examine all the species, and not just those which are beautiful or useful. 

[Hummin]

10 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Well folks, I've just fallen off the fence.

I was raised a Catholic and it didn't take me long to perceive the many fallacies of religion.  For instance, God is everywhere and within everything.  Which means God is in hell as well.  Or the fact that one could be a heinous murderer, repent, accept Jesus Christ as his Saviour, and get his golden pass at the pearly gates.  Yet some poor indigenous African who has no knowledge of Christ and the Christian God would go to hell for the mere transgression of not knowing of their existence.  Or eternal damnation to hell and any hope for redemption gone for eternity as well.  Does anyone have any idea how long eternity is?  Or Heaven as a final resting place.  For all eternity, too.  Imagine a place of pure perfection.  No further growth is possible.  You've reached the top rung of the ladder and there's no place else to go.  There's nothing to learn any longer since all is known.  No more challenges in one's existence as you win at any game all of the time.  (Not sure how that works if you're playing against an opponent - do both win?)  Any state of perfection is the true definition of death.  And there is no such thing.

Science, I've learned, holds as many or more . . . I think more . . . fallacious ideas than even religion.  While I credit religion with at least providing the world with some decent values and worthy personal traits to aspire to science on the other hand offers a dead universe.  Morals don't exist as those come out of the untrustworthy subjective mind so anything goes.  The only goal of science is to harness and control the entirety of existence.  Which is a scary thought to put that kind of power in the hands of people when those same people are making an absolute mess of the world.

 

Don't get me wrong.  Both religion and science have tremendous value.  But as far as providing comprehensive explanations, not so much.

So where else to find answers to who and what we are and what this reality truly is and how it works?  How about the people themselves?  Advice from family, friends, teachers, coworkers, professors, scientists, physicians?  Bar girls?  I've heard every theory of life imaginable from people.  Most make no sense and their logic holds no water.  Theories from the downright bizarre to fairly rationale ideas but faulty when the surface is scratched.

As I listened to what people believe throughout life I find that most of it is jumbled, there's little to no cohesion, much of it is outright contradictory (you know, when you believe one thing under one circumstance and it's polar opposite in another circumstance), for certain it lacks comprehensiveness (meaning it doesn't try to fit everything together to cover every imaginable aspect of existence . . . just a bunch of bits and pieces which don't fit together as a whole), a great portion of beliefs aren't even beneficial to the individual . . . in fact many are exceedingly detrimental - but who cares, so many beliefs which are irreconcilable, and I could go on.

Now the funniest part, to me, as I've gone through life talking with all sorts of people from diverse backgrounds is that during an exchange of ideas where I attempt to introduce new thought or ideas most look at me cross eyed as if I've just been released from Bedlam.  Yet when I look at some of the beliefs being expressed, and defended to the death when challenged despite their detriment, I'm the one then looking cross eyed when I consider that most of the beliefs are as I described above.  How is it possible that ideas which hold logic, are sensible, fit together, are comprehensive get laughed at and worse while the most bizarre ideas are readily accepted as the norm by most?  Beats me.  My brother once quipped, "I'd rather be sane and thought of as insane than to be insane only so that I would be thought of as sane."  I found that to be good advice.

My search for answers has not been in vain, though.  To the contrary, it's been extremely successful.  Not that I could ever convince anyone of the fact even if I wanted to.  I've come to the conclusion that most of the discussion here is with folks who, while extremely intelligent, have zero desire to know anything more than what they currently know.  Not all, I'll add.  And so there's no point in attempting to move an immovable object.  Belief is easy enough to change.  Conviction of a belief, on the other hand, is the immovable object.  Besides, most are quite satisfied with the extent of their knowing.  And in the end that's all that matters, right?

So with that, au revoir.

 

The old books is just «science»  and knownledge from that time of period it was written. They where also cherry picking for getting best resoult of what made sense for time being, and also used politicsl for time being, and not really new with the Romans who used it in more efficient way than before, where they made allies by converting them to Christians more common understanding, than direct threats of going to hell and being executed for blasphemy. 
 

If you read the bible you will find many laws that protect humans for doing stupid things, and also a guide to a successful living which involved discipline and a strict simple life to benefit all, and of course have common ground for their people to build wealth and become stronger against enemies. 
 

It gives people hope and also something greater to fear. 
 

Tippaporn, we all cherry picking even if we read the bible, the christians, pick what they like to believe in, exclude what they do not like. Thats why we have so many different churches and different beliefs even among Christians. 
 

I believe all people need somewhere to belong, and the further away from nature we get, the more we longing for something to make sense. 
 

Out in the nature, it is all about to survive, in more civilized populated it is more about getting seen and acknowledged by others, where we really do not risk anything to exists. At least where we have come from. 
 

We do not risk much these days to leave our tribe, and maybe fairy tales started to teach everyone avout the danger they would face if they left their tribe, that later lead to more complex belief systems, and all this knownledge is passed on to us through our genetic memories. 
 

Well, we know we are born with some kind of instincts, and we believe in dna and genetic memory ? Dont we? 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/27/2022 at 6:32 PM, Tippaporn said:

You create your reality whether or not you believe you do, whether or not you agree with it, whether or not you like it.  Again, reality is what it is and works the way it does regardless of what you may believe.

 

If that is true, then I must really hate myself to create my present ( and much of my past ) life.

Also, the way my life turned out depended on the death of my 2 year old brother, and the effect that had on my parents. If we create our own reality why would I wish so much grief on my family at an age when I had no concept of life?

 

I prefer to disagree with your statement. Far as I'm concerned, <deleted> happens because it happens, not because it was imagined prior. In the end, life is chaos, IMO.

 

IMO religion is the attempt of people to make chaos rational, by believing there is some sort of "plan" for it all. I do not.

I believe that God created life the universe and everything and then left the universe to get on with it.