Do you believe in God and why

[Elad]

On 11/19/2019 at 3:29 AM, VincentRJ said:

Perfect' is a human concept. Whatever you think, whether you think God exists or doesn't, it is a human concept. All the so-called Laws of Physics and rules of Mathematics, are human concepts.

I agree with you on the laws of physics, theories will always remain theories, and no laws are proven to be true, if they were then those laws would be fixed until the end of the universe. 

As for the rules of mathematics, would you agree that the same rules would apply across the entire universe? Like the right angle triangle in flat geometry. Intelligent civilizations on other planets would use those same rules but interpreted different, ie their math symbols wouldn't be the same as ours.

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, Elad said:

As for the rules of mathematics, would you agree that the same rules would apply across the entire universe? Like the right angle triangle in flat geometry. Intelligent civilizations on other planets would use those same rules but interpreted different, ie their math symbols wouldn't be the same as ours.

My understanding is that nature does not deal in straight lines. Natural things move in fits and starts along complex paths, not straight from point to point. Tree branches and coastlines are jagged and bent.

 

However, Geometry and Mathematics are useful tools that are essential for the creation of all sorts of modern products, but those tools are created by man and are not exact representations of 'the laws of nature'. Refer attached image.

 

"Straight lines and perfect circles don't exist in reality. All perfect shapes are mathematical abstractions."

 

http://factmyth.com/factoids/there-are-no-straight-lines-or-perfect-circles/
 

[Skeptic7]

And after all this...not one iota closer to even a shred of evidence of any gods or supernatural! No surprise there! 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Skeptic7

[Sunmaster]

 

 

6 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

And after all this...not one iota closer to even a shred of evidence of any gods or supernatural! 

 

And after all of this, you still don't get it.

Here is what I said a couple of pages back. Maybe you conveniently missed it, purposely ignored it or perhaps simply didn't understand it: 

 

You do realize that we're talking in circles here?
Atheists demand scientific evidence to prove there is an Eternal Source. 

Theists point out that the search for the Source is a subjective endeavor and if they want evidence, they have to start practicing one or the other spiritual practice. 
Atheists can't be bothered, don't believe it will show anything and don't believe in a Source a priori. 
Theists raise their hands in despair.

Atheists think they've "won" the argument because no (scientific) evidence was provided, so they can sit back and pat themselves on the shoulder. (or add clapping emojis to their comments ???????????? )

Repeat ad nauseam.

GOD HAS TO BE EXPERIENCED.

Everything else might be interesting intellectually or mildly entertaining, but at the end of the day is not the real thing.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Sunmaster

[VincentRJ]

5 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

GOD HAS TO BE EXPERIENCED.

Everything else might be interesting intellectually or mildly entertaining, but at the end of the day is not the real thing.

 

Please describe the method by which you determine that a particular experience is an experience of God.

[Sunmaster]

6 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Please describe the method by which you determine that a particular experience is an experience of God.

You'll know when you have it.
I wish I could give you a fancy explanation and quote complicated methodologies, but in the end it comes down to the experience you have. It's between "You" and "It". 
In my case, I spent a lot of time afterwards studying and talking to competent people, and all of that just validated what I already knew: that experiencing the Source is possible and literally everything else pales compared to that.
 

[Skeptic7]

22 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

 

 

 

And after all of this, you still don't get it.

Here is what I said a couple of pages back. Maybe you conveniently missed it, purposely ignored it or perhaps simply didn't understand it: 

 

You do realize that we're talking in circles here?
Atheists demand scientific evidence to prove there is an Eternal Source. 

Theists point out that the search for the Source is a subjective endeavor and if they want evidence, they have to start practicing one or the other spiritual practice. 
Atheists can't be bothered, don't believe it will show anything and don't believe in a Source a priori. 
Theists raise their hands in despair.

Atheists think they've "won" the argument because no (scientific) evidence was provided, so they can sit back and pat themselves on the shoulder. (or add clapping emojis to their comments ???????????? )

Repeat ad nauseam.

GOD HAS TO BE EXPERIENCED.

Everything else might be interesting intellectually or mildly entertaining, but at the end of the day is not the real thing.

 

 

No...I saw what you wrote a few pages back and dismissed it. As I've reiterated ad nauseum since the beginning....a personal experience isn't evidence to anyone except the one having it and as Vincent said above how do YOU determine what you're experiencing is (a) god? So much as demonstrate and convince anyone other than yourself of such a claim. 

 

Look I believe YOU believe it, but that doesn't make it so. Doesn't even make it plausible or even mildly interesting. Only has meaning to you, but means zippo to billions of others.

 

People make extraordinary and wild claims everyday. So if yours is real and meaningful and special...then show us. Prove to us yours is different. 

[StreetCowboy]

50 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

No...I saw what you wrote a few pages back and dismissed it. As I've reiterated ad nauseum since the beginning....a personal experience isn't evidence to anyone except the one having it and as Vincent said above how do YOU determine what you're experiencing is (a) god? So much as demonstrate and convince anyone other than yourself of such a claim. 

 

Look I believe YOU believe it, but that doesn't make it so. Doesn't even make it plausible or even mildly interesting. Only has meaning to you, but means zippo to billions of others.

 

People make extraordinary and wild claims everyday. So if yours is real and meaningful and special...then show us. Prove to us yours is different. 

I think atheists are on a losing wicket here.  God clearly exists in the minds of the faithful, just like courage and honesty, or duplicitous malice.

[Skeptic7]

27 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I think atheists are on a losing wicket here.  God clearly exists in the minds of the faithful, just like courage and honesty, or duplicitous malice.

You're wrong. Figments of the imagination and delusions "exist" in the minds of many. Doesn't make them true or real. Courage, honesty, malice, fear, happiness etc are natural and normal human aspects which can are readily experienced and can be demonstrated by most, if not all. Not just by the "chosen" or deluded. There's a big difference. 

[Sunmaster]

7 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Courage, honesty, malice, fear, happiness etc are natural and normal human aspects which can are readily experienced and can be demonstrated by most, if not all.

You say they are natural and normal human aspects. Well, so are the higher states of consciousness called "spiritual" states. They are accessible to anyone and there's nothing elitist about them.

How do you measure courage? How do you quantify happiness? How much does fear weight? 
You can't define them in those terms, but you can see their effects...a man saves someone from a burning house (evidence of courage); a woman is in love and can't stop smiling (evidence of happiness); a girl jumps every time she sees a worm (evidence of fear).

 

What are the attributes (evidence) of a spiritual nature?
Compassion, Self-Realization, being able to love unconditionally, a deep sense for justice, humility, forgiveness....
Sure, everybody has these qualities to a certain degree (or should work to develop them), but it takes a great person to truly "live" these attributes 100% of the time. When you meet such a person, you'll know there's something special about them.

And that's where you can find the evidence you seek. Will it be enough? Probably not, but that's all you'll get.


 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Sunmaster

[StreetCowboy]

1 hour ago, Skeptic7 said:

You're wrong. Figments of the imagination and delusions "exist" in the minds of many. Doesn't make them true or real. Courage, honesty, malice, fear, happiness etc are natural and normal human aspects which can are readily experienced and can be demonstrated by most, if not all. Not just by the "chosen" or deluded. There's a big difference. 

Figments of imagination are as real as the laws of physics.  When someone can put Newton's laws in my hand, so that I can count them individually, I may change my mind.  Possibly less reliable, but no less real for being unreliable.  A skoda is a car as much as a volkswagen.  Gravitation is a more reliable theory than the lumineferous ether, but a theory nonetheless.

[Elad]

4 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

Figments of imagination are as real as the laws of physics.  When someone can put Newton's laws in my hand, so that I can count them individually, I may change my mind. 

When I stand on the solid surface of the Earth, the Normal force pushing up to my feet from the Earth is equal (but opposite direction) to the force of my mass x gravity pushing down at the surface, the net force is zero. That's Newton's third law and its physically real, I didn't fall through the Earth and wasn't flung into the air. You can see it, feel it, and measure it using F = ma.

 

I can also imagine a goldfish giving birth to a baby elephant. It feels real in my mind and makes me chuckle, but its certainly not real in the physical world, the laws of physics/nature wouldn't allow it, never, not in this universe anyway. ????

 

 

[yodsak]

On 11/10/2019 at 9:00 AM, mauGR1 said:

If you are too lazy to provide evidence of the non-existence of intelligent design, it's also fair enough.

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 11/20/2019 at 12:08 AM, Tagged said:

Religious Seek forgivnes, and is accepted by all book religions included Buddhism and Hinduism. 

 

So, doesnt matter how bad you have been, just ask forgivness and seek out Jesus, you will be fine. 

Apparently you don't understand what repentance actually is. If you did you would not have written that.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, Elad said:

I can also imagine a goldfish giving birth to a baby elephant. It feels real in my mind and makes me chuckle, but its certainly not real in the physical world, the laws of physics/nature wouldn't allow it, never, not in this universe anyway. ????

Ah, so you personally know everything about the universe, with it's uncountable stars and planets?

Perhaps on the other side of the universe things work differently, but none of us have been to the other side of the universe to know.

Makes me chuckle when people profess to KNOW everything, when humans are barely out of the cave and know sod all on a cosmic scale. If we actually knew anything, cancer would not exist.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, yodsak said:

 

 

 

 

Loads of things happen that can't be proven. Doesn't mean that they don't happen.

[canuckamuck]

The semantics argument here seems to be about the nature of a law.

In my my mind we have natural laws to which the elements of the universe comply. And then we have man's descriptions of these laws which are flawed because there are aspects which are unknown.

The natural laws, which are generally mathematical expressions, were true before any man existed. Other laws, like the laws of thermodynamics seem true, but we do not know if there could be exceptions because they are observations, not equations.

Gravity is attached to laws that are predictable, but we do not understand the underlying force. These laws are an observation that is consistent enough to apply mathematics to it. But our description of it is not a natural law.

Edited November 21, 2019 by canuckamuck

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, canuckamuck said:

The semantics argument here seems to be about the nature of a law.

In my my mind we have natural laws to which the elements of the universe comply. And then we have man's descriptions of these laws which are flawed because there are aspects which are unknown.

The natural laws, which are generally mathematical expressions, were true before any man existed. Other laws, like the laws of thermodynamics seem true, but we do not know if there could be exceptions because they are observations, not equations.

Gravity is attached to laws that are predictable, but we do not understand the underlying force. These laws are an observation that is consistent enough to apply mathematics to it. But our description of it is not a natural law.

Unless science can explain where the matter than makes the universe came from, and how "life" can be created, it is not possible to prove that it was not created by "God".

Probably using the word "God" causes misconceptions, as most of us were brought up to believe in a being with human like motives and feelings, whereas I believe that the creator has absolutely nothing in common with humans at all. Life forms are created and become extinct in a cosmic microsecond, so why would a being that can create life the universe and everything even care about us, as individuals? A child with an ant farm does not care about individual ants, do they?

[Tagged]

So what means God created us in his picture,,,,,,

 

The Image of God (Hebrew: צֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים‎, romanized: tzelem Elohim; Latin: Imago Dei) is a concept and theological doctrine in Judaism, Christianity, and Sufism of Islam, which asserts that human beings are created in the image and likeness of God.

[Xaos]

There is no planets and earth is flat

[Skeptic7]

22 minutes ago, Xaos said:

There is no planets and earth is flat

Ohhhh-kay...

...so do you believe in god(s) and why?  

[Skeptic7]

16 minutes ago, UncleMhee said:

 

So...what's your point? 

[UncleMhee]

1 hour ago, Xaos said:

There is no planets and earth is flat...

....there is no more dinosaurs either.

Edited November 21, 2019 by UncleMhee

[UncleMhee]

53 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

So...what's your point? 

Speaking in tongues.....

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, Tagged said:

So what means God created us in his picture,,,,,,

 

The Image of God (Hebrew: צֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים‎, romanized: tzelem Elohim; Latin: Imago Dei) is a concept and theological doctrine in Judaism, Christianity, and Sufism of Islam, which asserts that human beings are created in the image and likeness of God.

You keep referring to religious doctrine. I guess you read none of my posts explaining that religion has very little to do with faith in a higher being.

What you posted has nothing to do with the existence or not of a creator.

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You keep referring to religious doctrine. I guess you read none of my posts explaining that religion has very little to do with faith in a higher being.

What you posted has nothing to do with the existence or not of a creator.

Not surprising at all !

Since the very beginning of the thread, the non-believers keep referring to the Bible, which they don't like, to justify their aversion to the existence of a higher consciousness.

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You keep referring to religious doctrine. I guess you read none of my posts explaining that religion has very little to do with faith in a higher being.

What you posted has nothing to do with the existence or not of a creator.

Neither does anything you posted. 

[Elad]

22 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Gravity is attached to laws that are predictable, but we do not understand the underlying force. These laws are an observation that is consistent enough to apply mathematics to it. But our description of it is not a natural law

It's the difference between precision and accuracy. 

When a dart player aims for treble 20, and all 3 darts land closely group together slightly above the treble, the dart player was precise but not accurate. 

 

Einstein's General relativity describes gravity with precision but it's not accurate. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Elad

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Not surprising at all !

Since the very beginning of the thread, the non-believers keep referring to the Bible, which they don't like, to justify their aversion to the existence of a higher consciousness.

Indeed. It's their only "evidence" that "God" doesn't exist, but it's like referring to Noddy books to prove that golliwogs don't exist in real life. The Bible is just a history book of the Jews, and the second testament is a history of the early Christian Church with a bit of mysticism thrown in by Revelations.

[sunnyboy2018]

no God or heaven or hell or prophet...GROW UP!