Do you believe in God and why

[rumak]

On 8/13/2019 at 4:57 PM, CharlieH said:

That answer both questions ????  in short, the invention of a method for a small group or one to control a larger group or many.

And on the eighth day ..... thaivisa was born

[rumak]

27 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Doesn't make any sense, does it?

yes

[rumak]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

He took the time to explain something that you could have easily looked up using Google or Bing. The very  least you could do is not to make fun of it.

if there is a god,  surely when he looks at what he has created he would definitely make fun

of it.    i hope.  

[rumak]

what a blessing !   finding this thread , i mean.    I can read hundreds of pages of intellectual

arguments  uh, discussions............ then post one line witty comments.

those who personally attack me for using my god given talents will be reported to a higher authority

Edited December 22, 2019 by rumak

[rumak]

oops,  just realized it was Sunday.   god has told me to take a rest.   see y'all soon

[Sunmaster]

Cool, come back when you're not drunk. ????????

[Elad]

On 12/20/2019 at 2:15 AM, Sunmaster said:

I think my point was very clear in this regard. Black holes and electrons (to name just 2) are not dependent on anyone's imagination or on scientific validation for them to exist. They existed billions of years before humans appeared and will exist billions of years after we disappeared.

Most of the particles that scientist are discovering don't exist naturally in the universe today, and haven't existed for billions of years. However, these particles would have existed in the very early universe when the energy density was higher and thus the energy per particle was much higher than it is today. Particle colliders recreate the conditions of the very early universe, and its the closest we can get to understanding how the universe began.  

[Elad]

12 hours ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Besides, if we are evolving as they say, how come we don't have radio antennae on our heads yet--a new sense?  When are we going to get it?

If 'artificial selection' can change a wolf to a chihuahua in 10,000 years, then think about what 'natural selection' can do in 3 billion years.

[AsianAtHeart]

2 hours ago, Elad said:

If 'artificial selection' can change a wolf to a chihuahua in 10,000 years, then think about what 'natural selection' can do in 3 billion years.

As a biologist, I do have to disagree with you on this point.  Artificial selection such as you refer to only works by removing information from the gene sequence--never by adding.  A balanced canine with a full set of genes will exhibit much more natural proportions in its phenotype.  By selecting out certain genes, usually involving a shift toward the recessive traits by displacing (eliminating) the dominant alleles, you can have a dog which has a reduced set of genetic information that results in a loss of stature, hair, natural proportions, etc.  Consider the wrinkled skin of dog breeds such as the Chinese Shar-Pei, the pug, or the bulldog; this results from having the genes for the skin of a larger dog while lacking the genes to match it in the frame.  Putting a large skin onto a small frame results in loose and wrinkled skin.

 

And there is a reason why we do not refer to the chihuahua as a different species from, say, a Great Dane.  They are both still dogs, and they can be crossbred to produce viable young.  The wolf and all canines are part of the Bible's "kind" category, and any natural or artificial selection or interbreeding of any member of this canine family with another one will still produce a canine.  Try to breed a canine with a bovine and you will get nothing more than a bruising for your effort.  No viable young would be produced.  Canines will always be canines.  Bovines will always be bovines.  Ditto for porcines, felines, equines, passerines, elapines, murines, ursines, piscines, etc.  While biologists sometimes refer to "species" within each of these animal families, and focus on so-called speciation to show that there has been some notable change, God designed the gene pool of each organism to be limited to its "kind," which more nearly matches the scientific nomenclature of "Family."  There is absolutely no evidence that any organism has ever evolved on its own outside of its kind.

 

Chimeras are not natural.  And, by the way, God is much displeased when humans mess around with such.  God's order is confused when people start putting spider DNA into goats so that their milk contains silk, jellyfish DNA into pigs to make them glow in the dark, or human brain tissue in mice to make them...?

 

Consider CRISPR-Cas9 gene-editing technology that permits scientists to remove genetic information or add it.  Interestingly, governments have decided that mere removal of information does not constitute a GMO (genetically modified organism), whereas the addition of information does.  But even specific genetic changes in the laboratory are highly likely to come with unintended consequences.  Consider the following report, published just a few months ago.

 

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/614235/recombinetics-gene-edited-hornless-cattle-major-dna-screwup/

 

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, Tagged said:

But what god is will be the single question left, and not to forget, who is our god? The planet, the sky, the sun, the invisible god in the sky, heaven, galaxy, universe, multiverse, or what ever there is? Planet earth, Mother earth, Gaia  is a good start to obey not concour!

 

Have a splended holiday with whoever you choose to believe in, and to most important we often forget, is to believe in ourself, first then we can go out and find the right answers for ourself. 

LOL. You were well indoctrinated into religion! Think outside the box!

If "God" made everything, then everything is in "God".

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, AsianAtHeart said:

There is absolutely no evidence that any organism has ever evolved on its own outside of its kind.

I liked most of your post but as a biologist/scientist how can you really say this?

 

Or do you not believe in evolution or the "evidence" that suggests every species evolved from single cell amoebas?

 

 

By your logic the Earth must have started with bovines, porcines, felines, equines, passerines, elapines, murines, ursines [I'll admit I had to Google the last 4], piscines etc...  or they couldn't exist today (which is one thing that we can all agree that they do)... 

 

So where did they come from? Out of an ark or something?

 

Edit: I can't believe I had to Google Ursine, simple crossword clue around fur coats, but Passerines, Elapines & Murines had me reaching for the search button... Piscines is obvious so sanity restored... 

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Mike Teavee

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, Mike Teavee said:

Or do you not believe in evolution or the "evidence" that suggests every species evolved from single cell amoebas?

 

Agreed that all life started from one thing, but wasn't it smaller than an amoeba?

Those that believe have no problem believing that no life existed on planet Earth before "God" put the first living thing into the oceans. That thing evolved to become every living thing today, so every living thing was created by "God", just as it says in the Bible.

[Mike Teavee]

12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Agreed that all life started from one thing, but wasn't it smaller than an amoeba?

Those that believe have no problem believing that no life existed on planet Earth before "God" put the first living thing into the oceans. That thing evolved to become every living thing today, so every living thing was created by "God", just as it says in the Bible.

Confused... I thought you were more of a "Spiritual" follower of a "God" rather than the Bible following kind... 

 

Life on Earth has existed since the Earth was created as It was all part of the same "Genesis Event" that created the planet... What that "Event" was & how it came to happen is a different discussion, but the origin of species was created as part of the Earth's creation.

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Mike Teavee

[thaibeachlovers]

40 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Confused... I thought you were more of a "Spiritual" follower of a "God" rather than the Bible following kind... 

 

Life on Earth has existed since the Earth was created as It was all part of the same "Genesis Event" that created the planet... What that "Event" was & how it came to happen is a different discussion, but the origin of species was created as part of the Earth's creation.

 

I don't "follow" "a" god. Follow indicates rules and leaders and such which I reject. I believe in "God", creator of life the universe and everything, from the largest sun, to the smallest of living things.

 

Given that no human was around at the big bang, or the solidification of the gas cloud that became Earth, or when life started, it's all supposition, isn't it? Just one opinion among many. I choose to believe that "God" planted the first living organism in the oceans to become every living thing on the planet.

I don't follow the Bible, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing relevant to believe in it.

Edited December 22, 2019 by thaibeachlovers

[Mike Teavee]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I don't "follow" "a" god. Follow indicates rules and leaders and such which I reject. I believe in "God", creator of life the universe and everything, from the largest sun, to the smallest of living things.

 

Given that no human was around at the big bang, or the solidification of the gas cloud that became Earth, or when life started, it's all supposition, isn't it? Just one opinion among many. I choose to believe that "God" planted the first living organism in the oceans to become every living thing on the planet.

I don't follow the Bible, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing relevant to belief in it.

 

Apologies... I read the last sentence in your earlier post about the Bible in a different way that it was obviously intended... 

 

As I've said before, I believe there is (obviously) something there that we're yet to "know" (can't see it happening in my life time & possibly nobody ever will), but I reject the religious dogma that (As somebody said in a previous post) "The Guys With the Pointy Hats" put around it... 

 

 

Peace out ???? 

 

[Sunmaster]

6 hours ago, Elad said:

Most of the particles that scientist are discovering don't exist naturally in the universe today, and haven't existed for billions of years. However, these particles would have existed in the very early universe when the energy density was higher and thus the energy per particle was much higher than it is today. Particle colliders recreate the conditions of the very early universe, and its the closest we can get to understanding how the universe began.  

Interesting but irrelevant to my point. The particles you mention were not created by scientists, more like recreated, meaning they were there before. 

They existed independently of science.

How many other things, energies and realities exist right now without science's "approval"?

Is God one of these things?

[rumak]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

 I can't believe I had to Google Ursine, simple crossword clue around fur coats, but Passerines, Elapines & Murines had me reaching for the search button... Piscines is obvious so sanity restored... 

 

[rumak]

14 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Interesting but irrelevant to my point. The particles you mention were not created by scientists, more like recreated, meaning they were there before. 

They existed independently of science.

How many other things, energies and realities exist right now without science's "approval"?

Is God one of these things?

like your avatar.    found another one similar .    

[thaibeachlovers]

42 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

Apologies... I read the last sentence in your earlier post about the Bible in a different way that it was obviously intended... 

 

As I've said before, I believe there is (obviously) something there that we're yet to "know" (can't see it happening in my life time & possibly nobody ever will), but I reject the religious dogma that (As somebody said in a previous post) "The Guys With the Pointy Hats" put around it... 

 

 

Peace out ???? 

 

I call them the men in funny hats as in some religions they are not pointy. However all were designed to identify the masters to the sheeple. Interesting that in Christianity they even use the crook to show the followers that they are no more than sheep to the masters.

 

It's interesting to me that the naysayers choose to identify only the Christian religion to mock, ignoring the giant elephant in the room of religions.

[Sunmaster]

5 minutes ago, rumak said:

like your avatar.    found another one similar .    

Cool. Got anything else to say or is the hangover still too strong? ????????

[canuckamuck]

removed

Edited December 23, 2019 by canuckamuck

[Mike Teavee]

3 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

removed

Why? it wasn't offensive... those "...ines" really did have my head spinning but I should have got Ursine

 

I can't quite remember the cryptic crossword clue but the question had something to do with fur coats & the answer included something to do with bears... But even easier that that we have Ursa Major (The "Great Bear")... 

 

Those other 3 were new to me, that's what I love about reading random threads on TVF, everyday I lean a new word (& I thought I had a pretty extensive vocabulary & can usually attribute some random fact to the etymology of the word to get some understanding of what it means, but every day somebody posts a blinder on here that I have to go Google & add it to the bank ???? )

 

I'm sorry if I caused any offence with my posts last night/ this morning, a few beerios too many at my mates (& mine) leaving Singapore party last night... Honestly didn't mean to offend with my posts... 

 

 

 

[AsianAtHeart]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

I liked most of your post but as a biologist/scientist how can you really say this?

 

Or do you not believe in evolution or the "evidence" that suggests every species evolved from single cell amoebas?

 

 

By your logic the Earth must have started with bovines, porcines, felines, equines, passerines, elapines, murines, ursines [I'll admit I had to Google the last 4], piscines etc...  or they couldn't exist today (which is one thing that we can all agree that they do)... 

 

So where did they come from? Out of an ark or something?

 

Edit: I can't believe I had to Google Ursine, simple crossword clue around fur coats, but Passerines, Elapines & Murines had me reaching for the search button... Piscines is obvious so sanity restored... 

 

Biologists who also do a little reasonable math will soon see that the current dogma of naturalistic evolution which claims all life evolved from some single spark of life that happened miraculously somehow is actually a total impossibility.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The DNA could never have developed in that way, mathematically speaking.

 

Because chemicals, molecules, and atoms are subject to natural laws which include such things as the laws of diffusion and of entropy, "Mother Earth," as many like to say, is actually against the type of organization that would promote life or the development of any organism's genetic code.  Organization requires action and cannot possibly be accomplished passively.  It would be as easy to believe that the waves of the sea had beat upon the sand and shaped it into a sand castle (as opposed to a flattened beach) as to believe that the DNA of even the simplest organism had come about due to random chance.  Any random "mutations" of the DNA result in a more disordered code. 

 

To use another example, suppose you have a radio.  You turn the radio on and look for a channel to tune into.  Unless there is a radio station near enough broadcasting on a particular frequency, what do you hear?  Noise.  The further you go away from the station, the noisier its signal gets.  Why does this signal not, instead, become clearer, or perhaps mutate into a different language?  Preposterous, you say?  Of course.  But it is exactly that same level of preposterous that the charlatans of so-called science have asked us to believe.  The evolution of humans from an amoeba is so far out of the realm of possibility that it beggars belief in even the sanity of the ones who propose it.

 

[Sunmaster]

@AsianAtHeart

I have to say I really enjoy reading your posts. You seem to know what you're talking about and it brings a fresh new perspective into the discussion. 

Hope to read more.

[Mike Teavee]

10 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Biologists who also do a little reasonable math will soon see that the current dogma of naturalistic evolution which claims all life evolved from some single spark of life that happened miraculously somehow is actually a total impossibility.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The DNA could never have developed in that way, mathematically speaking.

 

Because chemicals, molecules, and atoms are subject to natural laws which include such things as the laws of diffusion and of entropy, "Mother Earth," as many like to say, is actually against the type of organization that would promote life or the development of any organism's genetic code.  Organization requires action and cannot possibly be accomplished passively.  It would be as easy to believe that the waves of the sea had beat upon the sand and shaped it into a sand castle (as opposed to a flattened beach) as to believe that the DNA of even the simplest organism had come about due to random chance.  Any random "mutations" of the DNA result in a more disordered code. 

 

To use another example, suppose you have a radio.  You turn the radio on and look for a channel to tune into.  Unless there is a radio station near enough broadcasting on a particular frequency, what do you hear?  Noise.  The further you go away from the station, the noisier its signal gets.  Why does this signal not, instead, become clearer, or perhaps mutate into a different language?  Preposterous, you say?  Of course.  But it is exactly that same level of preposterous that the charlatans of so-called science have asked us to believe.  The evolution of humans from an amoeba is so far out of the realm of possibility that it beggars belief in even the sanity of the ones who propose it.

 

Suppose you had a googleplex (1 followed by 100 zeros) monkeys bashing away at the same number of typewrites, do you not think that at least one of them would come up with the works of Shakespeare?

 

That number is irrelevant compared to the possibilities of atoms/protons/neurons/elements colliding over the billions of years that the Earth existed before the 1st life evolved... 

 

You're the expert (I am (was) just an IT Geek), but surely DNA evolved... if you compare our DNA to the DNA of those of the single cell amoebas surely  you can see evolution at work... or did man really just suddenly appear... Whoosh.. 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Mike Teavee

[rumak]

36 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Cool. Got anything else to say or is the hangover still too strong? ????????

just saying good morning  ????

[AsianAtHeart]

5 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Suppose you had a googleplex (1 followed by 100 zeros) monkeys bashing away at the same number of typewrites, do you not think that at least one of them would come up with the works of Shakespeare?

 

That number is irrelevant compared to the possibilities of atoms/protons/neurons/elements colliding over the billions of years that the Earth existed before the 1st life evolved... 

 

You're the expert (I'm was just an IT Geek), but surely DNA evolved... if you compare our DNA to the DNA of those of the single cell amoebas surely  you can see evolution at work... or did man really just suddenly appear... Whoosh.. 

 

 

 

Perfect!  I'm a hobbyist programmer, too.

 

Suppose you had your googleplex of monkeys hammering at computer keyboards for you--do you think one of them might accidentally, randomly, come up with your computer code for you that would solve your issues?

 

Computers are almost as finicky as the human organism with respect to their codes.  If just one character (letter) is out of place, the program will fail to run.  I remember hunting fruitlessly for hours for the cause of one particular failure, until I finally discovered a single apostrophe or backtick (I don't remember which, now) at the beginning of the file.  Argh!

 

I don't believe those monkeys would ever in eternity come up with your code by random chance.  Now, if you were to teach them your programming skills....ah, but then we are back to the "design" element.

[rumak]

24 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Why? it wasn't offensive... those "...ines" really did have my head spinning but I should have got Ursine

 

I can't quite remember the cryptic crossword clue but the question had something to do with fur coats & the answer included something to do with bears... But even easier that that we have Ursa Major (The "Great Bear")... 

 

Those other 3 were new to me, that's what I love about reading random threads on TVF, everyday I lean a new word (& I thought I had a pretty extensive vocabulary & can usually attribute some random fact to the etymology of the word to get some understanding of what it means, but every day somebody posts a blinder on here that I have to go Google & add it to the bank ???? )

 

I'm sorry if I caused any offence with my posts last night/ this morning, a few beerios too many at my mates (& mine) leaving Singapore party last night... Honestly didn't mean to offend with my posts... 

 

 

 

well,  i for one can not understand why people get upset when others post different viewpoints.   you at least see the humor.   you have my vote for POTY   555

I guess i should always start my posts with :  i'm sorry if i cause any offense 

oh well................  maybe wrong thread here for humor.   i'll slink away  (clap emojis from ?)

[Mike Teavee]

2 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Perfect!  I'm a hobbyist programmer, too.

 

Suppose you had your googleplex of monkeys hammering at computer keyboards for you--do you think one of them might accidentally, randomly, come up with your computer code for you that would solve your issues?

 

Computers are almost as finicky as the human organism with respect to their codes.  If just one character (letter) is out of place, the program will fail to run.  I remember hunting fruitlessly for hours for the cause of one particular failure, until I finally discovered a single apostrophe or backtick (I don't remember which, now) at the beginning of the file.  Argh!

 

I don't believe those monkeys would ever in eternity come up with your code by random chance.  Now, if you were to teach them your programming skills....ah, but then we are back to the "design" element.

I do believe they'd eventually come up with my code, and that's probably not a good thing! - And can well remember wasting nearly 1 day on a full stop (Period) in my COBOL 1 days on the IBM Mainframes - Also remember sitting scratching my head as I watched my VB code add 1 to a number but it didn't change (learnt that day that in the US when it's exactly .5, they only round the Odd (I think it is) numbers up, in the UK we round them all) 

 

I do take your point & as I said I think there is something there that we don't (and possibly will never) know, I just don't subscribe to the "All Mighty Being" theory... 

 

 

[Sunmaster]

@rumak

 

 

 

So, what exactly is your viewpoint? I can't seem to find any...

 

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Sunmaster
quoted wrong post