Do you believe in God and why

[Sunmaster]

3 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

There are posters here that claim that not only there is a person-god, but also claim that they know his name and they know what he wants.

They are the extremists.

They deserve ridicule, not respect.

Being born in a christian country, they believe in jesus. If their name was Ali, Indirah, Ioannis, Thorguld,... they would just as sternly believe in a different god and the things that their god wants.

 

Then there are those who define god as a higher power that explains everyting that science can not yet explain. However they cannot explain god.

Explaining something by referring to something they can not explain seems strange to me.

But they are harmless, I have a diferent opinion, and as long as they don't interfere with other people's life I have no problems with them.

 

 

 

 

So people have a different interpretation of reality from yours....so what?

You may not share their views, but ridicule them? Do you have all the answers to life, the universe and everything in between?

I doubt it. So how then can you be so sure that other's view points are wrong?

Maybe they are wrong in certain aspects but right in a whole lot of other points.

 

"They deserve ridicule, not respect."

Anyway, if you can't change this attitude, you can very well consider yourself as an extremist.

Have the 60s taught you nothing? ????

 

 

[oldhippy]

18 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

So people have a different interpretation of reality from yours....so what?

You may not share their views, but ridicule them? Do you have all the answers to life, the universe and everything in between?

I doubt it. So how then can you be so sure that other's view points are wrong?

Maybe they are wrong in certain aspects but right in a whole lot of other points.

 

"They deserve ridicule, not respect."

Anyway, if you can't change this attitude, you can very well consider yourself as an extremist.

Have the 60s taught you nothing? ????

 

 

The sixties have thought me not to follow extremists, religous or political, or whatever.

 

If some people believe in a person-god, and pretend to kow what he wants, they are dangerous extremists and will surely indoctrinate their children / those under their command - and pretend it's all for their benefit.

All the commands or wishes of all gods are man made - to the benefit of some men.

Even believers will not pretend that their rules came directly from god, they came from "godly inspired" men.

 

PS. You have not answered any of my arguments, you only called me an extremist-know-it-all.

 

 

 

 

 

[oldhippy]

And you miss-quoted me:

I reserve my ridicule for those who believe in a person-god, and pretend to know what that god exactly wants.

 

[Sunmaster]

1 minute ago, oldhippy said:

The sixties have thought me not to follow extremists, religous or political, or whatever.

 

If some people believe in a person-god, and pretend to kow what he wants, they are dangerous extremists and will surely indoctrinate their children / those under their command - and pretend it's all for their benefit.

All the commands or wishes of all gods are man made - to the benefit of some men.

Even believers will not pretend that their rules came directly from god, they came from "godly inspired" men.

 

PS. You have not answered any of my arguments, you only called me an extremist-know-it-all.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, didn't find any of your arguments. What I read was some generic attacks at other people's arguments. 

 

If you think you have such brilliant arguments against the ridiculous claims of the believers, why not just say them. If they are so evident as you claim, you won't have any problems shattering our belief systems.

[Sunmaster]

2 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

And you miss-quoted me:

I reserve my ridicule for those who believe in a person-god, and pretend to know what that god exactly wants.

 

You're right, sorry. I misunderstood. 

 

Still, I think one can disagree with an opinion without getting offensive. 

[oldhippy]

6 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Sorry, didn't find any of your arguments. What I read was some generic attacks at other people's arguments. 

 

If you think you have such brilliant arguments against the ridiculous claims of the believers, why not just say them. If they are so evident as you claim, you won't have any problems shattering our belief systems.

OK, I will shatter them once again.

Why do people born in christian countries believe in jesus?

Why do people born in india believe in ganesh?

Why do people born in muslim countries believe in mohamed?

Why do people born in christian countries believe in the pope / paisley /...

 

I will be lazy: you tell me why a christian does not believe in ganesh. Next all I have to do is copy paste.

Edited December 25, 2019 by oldhippy
.

[oldhippy]

5 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

You're right, sorry. I misunderstood. 

 

Still, I think one can disagree with an opinion without getting offensive. 

I think it is offensive to indoctrinate children and to threaten adults with hell.

That is "the original "sin".

I speak in self defence.

 

[oldhippy]

4 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Yep, i didn't compare Mohamed to Jesus and Buddha.

As i said, i don't know much about Mohamed, but as in the case of Jesus, i would guess that his name and his words have been exploited by unscrupulous people.

You do know that jesus (and some other jewish holy men) is a muslim prophet, do you?

The muslims only added another one, the Sikhs yet another.

Then some christians in the USA added a different one.

 

[luckyluke]

26 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

... how can you be so sure that other's view points are wrong?

Maybe they are wrong in certain aspects but right in a whole lot of other points... 

 

 

 

 

Nobody, in my opinion, can be sure, and maybe everyone is right or than wrong. 

 

However I read here frequently posts from some who are convinced they know better than others. 

 

Some claim to have experienced "things" that other don't, and thus consider themselves as "privileged". 

 

I have no problem they think so. 

 

I have a problem when they pretend we should all think/believe as they do, and if not, it is because we don't understand. 

 

Anyone can be perfectly happy in his own way;

It can be by believing, or by not believing. 

 

The word "believing" to be considered here as a very general concept. 

 

 

 

[oldhippy]

1 minute ago, luckyluke said:

Nobody, in my opinion, can be sure, and maybe everyone is right or than wrong. 

 

However I read here frequently posts from some who are convinced they know better than others. 

 

Some claim to have experienced "things" that other don't, and thus consider themselves as "privileged". 

 

I have no problem they think so. 

 

I have a problem when they pretend we should all think/believe as they do, and if not, it is because we don't understand. 

 

Anyone can be perfectly happy in his own way;

It can be by believing, or by not believing. 

 

The word "believing" to be considered here as a very general concept. 

 

 

 

Many beliefs are not harmfull.

Whether they are correct or not, does not matter.

But most believe systems have been proven to be dangerous.

And I am not talking about only religious believe systems, same thing is true for political, social, whatever believe systems.

[Sunmaster]

9 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

OK, I will shatter them once again.

Why do people born in christian countries believe in jesus?

Why do people born in india believe in ganesh?

Why do people born in muslim countries believe in mohamed?

Why do people born in christian countries believe in the pope / paisley /...

 

I will be lazy: you tell me why a christian does not believe in ganesh. Next all I have to do is copy paste.

Well, I'm not religious, but I will attempt to answer anyway. 

 

Picture a hand. The 5 fingers can move independently from each other, they are different in size and they can do different stuff. The pinky can scratch hard to get places, the ring finger likes rings, the middle finger is a naughty one, the index likes to point and the thumb likes to travel. None is better than the other, even if they sometimes think so.

Most importantly, they all belong to the same hand.

Now, some fingers are not aware of that fact. They will argue and fight with the other fingers that only they deserve the right to be the One True Finger.

Other fingers on the other hand (pun intended) know that they are all part of the same hand, so there's really nothing to fight about. 

 

What you are so upset about, is the fact that some people have a narrow or shallow interpretation of what they are trying to promote. Then you will have people praising an all merciful loving God, but at the same time condemning x, y and a for not conforming to their skewed belief system. 

 

Point is, it's not God's fault if people misrepresent him.

[luckyluke]

3 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

 

 

... it's not God's fault if people misrepresent him.

To state that some misrepresent God, it imply that some believe knowing His real being/intent. 

Who dare to pretend that? 

[oldhippy]

25 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Well, I'm not religious, but I will attempt to answer anyway. 

 

Picture a hand. The 5 fingers can move independently from each other, they are different in size and they can do different stuff. The pinky can scratch hard to get places, the ring finger likes rings, the middle finger is a naughty one, the index likes to point and the thumb likes to travel. None is better than the other, even if they sometimes think so.

Most importantly, they all belong to the same hand.

Now, some fingers are not aware of that fact. They will argue and fight with the other fingers that only they deserve the right to be the One True Finger.

Other fingers on the other hand (pun intended) know that they are all part of the same hand, so there's really nothing to fight about. 

 

What you are so upset about, is the fact that some people have a narrow or shallow interpretation of what they are trying to promote. Then you will have people praising an all merciful loving God, but at the same time condemning x, y and a for not conforming to their skewed belief system. 

 

Point is, it's not God's fault if people misrepresent him.

Basically, you are saying there is only one god, but people have different opinions about him.

There would be no way to know what that one god wants.

So why waste time trying to live according to his wishes?

Not to mention the fact that there might be several (competing) gods.

 

Therefore I suggest: forget about god, and move on to the only important / relevant question there is: How should we live our lives?

Surely not an easy question to answer... but we might get somewhere if we forget about god.

Edited December 25, 2019 by oldhippy
.

[Sunmaster]

2 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

To state that some misrepresent God, it imply that some believe knowing His real being/intent. 

Who dare to pretend that? 

Well, some say he doesn't exist at all and they have no problems expressing their thoughts. 

 

[luckyluke]

4 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Well, some say he doesn't exist at all and they have no problems expressing their thoughts. 

 

 

 

Knowing for sure He exist or not is inconclusive. 

 

Having the opinion he may exist or not, is to each his own to believe. 

 

For the ones who believe in His existence :

" The ways of the Lord are inscrutable". 

[AsianAtHeart]

7 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Well, some say he doesn't exist at all and they have no problems expressing their thoughts. 

 

Saying God does not exist is completely unscientific, because if one follows the scientific method, it is not possible to prove the non-existence of something.  So those claiming that God does not exist, but that science is true, are not true to their own belief system.  Most who appeal to science have a warped understanding of what it actually is and offers them.  Beliefs about God, the origins of the universe, or the reasons for life, etc. fall within the religio-philosophic realm where the scientific method can offer no help at all.

 

Most who claim not to believe in God actually know that He exists but wish to comfort their guilty conscience by claiming that He does not.  It is said that on a sinking ship there are no atheists--everyone is praying!

 

But some of the questions posed here regarding who God is and why people worship many different gods are valid questions.  The answers to those questions are all found in the Bible.  The Bible will provide clarity for much of the confusion that is out there; but God, being so much higher than us, cannot be expected to be fully explained nor explainable to our minds.

[oldhippy]

12 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Well, some say he doesn't exist at all and they have no problems expressing their thoughts. 

 

Some say there is a person-god.

I do not wish to waste time with these indoctrinated people.

 

Some say god is a force that they are not able to explain.

How can I produce counter arguments if there are no arguments?

 

And anyway, what is the relevance? No god or an indefinable god?

All that matters, is How should we live our lives, believing in god or not?

Even if you believe in god, he will not give you guidelines.

 

 

 

[Sunmaster]

2 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Basically, you are saying there is only one god, but people have different opinions about him.

There would be no way to know what that one god wants.

So why waste time trying to live according to his wishes?

Not to mention the fact that there might be several (competing) gods.

 

Therefore I suggest: forget about god, and move on to the only important / relevant question there is: How should we live our lives?

Surely not an easy question to answer... but we might get somewhere soon as we forget about god.

You got it....only 1 GOD.

 

There would be no way to know what that one god wants.

Mystic traditions within all religions say that it's possible to have a direct experience of God. Meaning...you can find out by yourself what God wants from you.

 

So why waste time trying to live according to his wishes?

I think God gave us free will so we can choose whatever we want, even choose not to follow him. I also don't think he doesn't "think" or "wish" anything, that's what we humans do. There are simply thoughts and actions that are either helpful or a hindrance on the way to God. 

Help others, be compassionate, meditate etc........helpful.

Cheat, lie, steal, get wasted every second day.......hindrance.

I don't see how you would waste your time.

 

Not to mention the fact that there might be several (competing) gods.

Again, only one GOD. If you're referring to the countless Hindu gods, they are simply different faces of the Divine Source, and so is Yahwe, Allah, Brahma, Odin etc.

 

Therefore I suggest: forget about god, and move on to the only important / relevant question there is: How should we live our lives?

Personally, I think there's nothing more important than God, and the way I live my live is closely linked to that. 

It's not so difficult after all, I try to choose those thoughts and actions that are helpful and avoid those that are a hindrance. 

[Sunmaster]

3 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

The Bible will provide clarity for much of the confusion that is out there

Ok, but it seems the Bible is responsible for much of the confusion in the first place. ????

[oldhippy]

1 minute ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Saying God does not exist is completely unscientific, because if one follows the scientific method, it is not possible to prove the non-existence of something.  So those claiming that God does not exist, but that science is true, are not true to their own belief system.  Most who appeal to science have a warped understanding of what it actually is and offers them.  Beliefs about God, the origins of the universe, or the reasons for life, etc. fall within the religio-philosophic realm where the scientific method can offer no help at all.

 

Most who claim not to believe in God actually know that He exists but wish to comfort their guilty conscience by claiming that He does not.  It is said that on a sinking ship there are no atheists--everyone is praying!

 

But some of the questions posed here regarding who God is and why people worship many different gods are valid questions.  The answers to those questions are all found in the Bible.  The Bible will provide clarity for much of the confusion that is out there; but God, being so much higher than us, cannot be expected to be fully explained nor explainable to our minds.

I asked before, but no answer.

You as a christian believe in the bible.

Strange coincidence that you were born in a christian country.

If you were born in Irak, India or Old Rome, you would just as strongly believe in different god(s).

It is all indoctrination.

[oldhippy]

8 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

You got it....only 1 GOD.

 

There would be no way to know what that one god wants.

Mystic traditions within all religions say that it's possible to have a direct experience of God. Meaning...you can find out by yourself what God wants from you.

 

So why waste time trying to live according to his wishes?

I think God gave us free will so we can choose whatever we want, even choose not to follow him. I also don't think he doesn't "think" or "wish" anything, that's what we humans do. There are simply thoughts and actions that are either helpful or a hindrance on the way to God. 

Help others, be compassionate, meditate etc........helpful.

Cheat, lie, steal, get wasted every second day.......hindrance.

I don't see how you would waste your time.

 

Not to mention the fact that there might be several (competing) gods.

Again, only one GOD. If you're referring to the countless Hindu gods, they are simply different faces of the Divine Source, and so is Yahwe, Allah, Brahma, Odin etc.

 

Therefore I suggest: forget about god, and move on to the only important / relevant question there is: How should we live our lives?

Personally, I think there's nothing more important than God, and the way I live my live is closely linked to that. 

It's not so difficult after all, I try to choose those thoughts and actions that are helpful and avoid those that are a hindrance. 

you can find out by yourself what God wants from you.

And what if I "find out"  that to serve god, I should kill all non believers?

 

different faces of the Divine Source, and so is Yahwe, Allah, Brahma, Odin etc.

Greek gods were in competition and jealous.

[luckyluke]

^

"I always say that every person on this earth has the freedom to practice or not  religion. 

I want to emphasise that it is extremely important for practitioners to sincerely believe in their respective religions." 

-Dalai Lama/27.07.2016-

[AsianAtHeart]

4 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I asked before, but no answer.

You as a christian believe in the bible.

Strange coincidence that you were born in a christian country.

If you were born in Irak, India or Old Rome, you would just as strongly believe in different god(s).

It is all indoctrination.

I know people, Thai, who were born in Thailand, and were born Christian.  Is Thailand, then, a Christian country?  The fact is, there are Christians in virtually every country on earth.  My uncle and grandfather were both born in China.  They were and are Christian.  My great-grandfather was certified to teach Chinese in the Chinese university.  Another member of my ancestry, however, who was born in a Christian country was a spiritist (a witch).  Her husband, when no one else was at home, would hear footsteps going up and down the stairs.  Sometimes the table or chairs would float around in the room.  The spirits communicated with her, and she would heal people (for a price).  This went on until, one day, she saw a sign for some meetings that would address spiritualism, and she, no realizing it was a Christian evangelist, thought to herself that she would go because she wanted to be a better spiritualist!  At first, actually, the spirits helped her--they would find the Bible texts for her (she didn't know the Bible), and even read them to her.  But as the meetings progressed, one day she noticed that the demons weren't reading correctly, and she got angry with them.  They were trying to trick her into believing that the Bible said something rather different than it actually said!  She became a Christian through those meetings, and her husband got angry with her because she didn't earn money anymore from healing people.

 

No country, people group, or language has a monopoly on knowledge of God.  Anyone anywhere can become a Christian and enjoy all the benefits of a Christ-centered life.

[luckyluke]

Sunmaster, you pretend to not understand my post 4734.

I am sure you do, despite it is written in a  not so correct English. 

That you may not agree with its content is of course your full right. 

[luckyluke]

10 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

I know people, Thai, who were born in Thailand, and were born Christian. 

Nobody is born with a religion. 

But the parents may be both of one particular belief, and so wish to teach/educate their son/daughter in the religion they believe in. 

[oldhippy]

15 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

I know people, Thai, who were born in Thailand, and were born Christian.  Is Thailand, then, a Christian country?  The fact is, there are Christians in virtually every country on earth.  My uncle and grandfather were both born in China.  They were and are Christian.  My great-grandfather was certified to teach Chinese in the Chinese university.  Another member of my ancestry, however, who was born in a Christian country was a spiritist (a witch).  Her husband, when no one else was at home, would hear footsteps going up and down the stairs.  Sometimes the table or chairs would float around in the room.  The spirits communicated with her, and she would heal people (for a price).  This went on until, one day, she saw a sign for some meetings that would address spiritualism, and she, no realizing it was a Christian evangelist, thought to herself that she would go because she wanted to be a better spiritualist!  At first, actually, the spirits helped her--they would find the Bible texts for her (she didn't know the Bible), and even read them to her.  But as the meetings progressed, one day she noticed that the demons weren't reading correctly, and she got angry with them.  They were trying to trick her into believing that the Bible said something rather different than it actually said!  She became a Christian through those meetings, and her husband got angry with her because she didn't earn money anymore from healing people.

 

No country, people group, or language has a monopoly on knowledge of God.  Anyone anywhere can become a Christian and enjoy all the benefits of a Christ-centered life.

For a brief moment I questioned my ridiculing of True Believers.

Shouldn't I be more open minded?

Reading your post instantly cured me.

A miracle !

 

[AsianAtHeart]

8 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Nobody is born with a religion. 

But the parents may be both of one particular belief, and so wish to teach/educate their son/daughter in the religion they believe in. 

I was.  From my very earliest memories, God was present with me.  I remember walking through the jungle at night time, alone, returning home from a hospital building about 200 meters away and thinking there might be snakes in the bushes beside the path.  I remember praying that God would protect me from the snakes, and the next thing I remember is seeing my mother silhouetted in the doorway of our house just ahead of me.  I would have been about 3-4 years old at the time, and this is literally one of my first memories.  God did protect me.  He has been with me throughout my life, and I believe He has been with you, too, more than you may realize.

[luckyluke]

7 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

I was.  From my very earliest memories, God was present with me.  

God may be with all of us, but not everyone is aware of it. 

 

You seems to be a Chosen, this make you very particular. 

 

[oldhippy]

18 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

I was.  From my very earliest memories, God was present with me.  I remember walking through the jungle at night time, alone, returning home from a hospital building about 200 meters away and thinking there might be snakes in the bushes beside the path.  I remember praying that God would protect me from the snakes, and the next thing I remember is seeing my mother silhouetted in the doorway of our house just ahead of me.  I would have been about 3-4 years old at the time, and this is literally one of my first memories.  God did protect me.  He has been with me throughout my life, and I believe He has been with you, too, more than you may realize.

Same with me.

I must have been about 10 years old.

 

Like so often my father took me with him to Cafe Germinal - in English that's a bar.

Lucky Luke will probably know that name.

My father would drink with his friends, I would play the pinball machine and eat chocolate. Belgian chocolate, what a blessing.

 

Anyway, I can still remember as if it was yesterday (60 years ago!) that I was playing pinball, and scored 4 in a line, with 1 ball left. The middle line!!! That drew the attention of my father and his friends, who argued about what to do next. Finally they decided to let me play the last ball.

 

And the lord was on my side, I got 5 in a line. The middle line!!!

With the money that I won, my father and his friends got roaring drunk, while I had an upset stomach for 3 days, because of eating too much chocolate.

True story!

 

So I am a choosen one too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

Therefore I suggest: forget about god, and move on to the only important / relevant question there is: How should we live our lives?

Surely not an easy question to answer... but we might get somewhere if we forget about god.

That's easy. One should try to live as a good person. Does anyone think it would be OK to be a bad person?

Everyone except psychopaths has a conscience. A conscience tells everyone if what they do is good or bad.

It is not necessary to believe in god to be a good person, but a person that believes is likely to want to be a good person, while a person that thinks there is no after life may decide it doesn't matter if they are bad.

 

NB I am not telling anyone how to be a good person, but obviously stealing, using violence against innocents, murder etc are not what anyone should be doing. Everyone's morality though, is different, so their version of moral good may differ from others.

However, my creed is to not willingly cause hurt to another, and to try to do unto others as I would like them to do unto me.

I'm the first to admit I sometimes fail.