Do you believe in God and why

[Sunmaster]

16 minutes ago, Nemises said:

Many people have died and been bought to life. None (to my knowledge) ever saw much on the “other side”.
Keep believing. Maybe you’ll be the first...

To my knowledge there are many who have had near death experiences and came back to tell about it. Even clinically declared dead. The information is out there...plenty of books are available if you care to read them.

I don't believe anything the way you think i do and I won't be the first, nor the last to experience death. 

For sure I don't want to wait until it happens to find out what's it all about.

[Skeptic7]

3 hours ago, ballpoint said:

I was going to say yes, of course if god came down and started performing miracles for the masses, then it would be rather hard to deny his non-existence.  But, then again, if I could go back to ancient times and start waving my mobile phone around, shoot a few bad guys, roar about on my motorbike, and tell everyone I was a god, then I think most would believe me - even a plastic cigarette lighter would be enough to convince most.  It would take more than that to convince us these days, but it would still be rather hard to tell the difference between a real god and an alien from a far more advanced civilisation - not that I'm claiming that's how religion got started, so further proof would be required.  Further more, if a believer was to try and prove the existence of their god, it's not the response of the atheists they should be worried about, but that of the multitude of believers of competing religions.  If faced with incontrovertible proof, a scientific atheist will incorporate that into his revised understanding of the universe, but how many Muslims, Jews and Christians will admit to being wrong should the menagerie of Hindu gods suddenly manifest themselves?  

 

On the other side of the coin, one by one the assertions of the Christian church - to take just one of that multitude, have been eroded away and proved to be false.  Flat earth?  Earth created 6,000 - 10,000 years ago?  Sun, stars and planets orbiting the earth?  All now known to be false.  Even evolution, for which there is undeniable proof of its taking place via natural selection in isolated populations, bacterial resistance to antibiotics, and the fossil record, is still doubted by many because it doesn't fit with their beliefs, which themselves are founded on no evidence at all.  As monotheists have chipped away at the set of ancient gods, so science is chipping away at the single remaining Western one.  A point that Christopher Hitchens put so well (as he so often did).  “From a plurality of prime movers, the monotheists have bargained it down to a single one. They are getting ever nearer to the true, round figure.”

Brilliant answer. ????

 

And let's not leave out other ignorant claims like the Earth is the center of the universe (geocentric). Disease, both mental and physical, especially epilepsy, are caused by demons. Bats are birds. 

 

 

[Skeptic7]

50 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

To my knowledge there are many who have had near death experiences and came back to tell about it. Even clinically declared dead. The information is out there...plenty of books are available if you care to read them.

I don't believe anything the way you think i do and I won't be the first, nor the last to experience death. 

For sure I don't want to wait until it happens to find out what's it all about.

Dying is a natural process. The brain is capable of amazing things. People write books about all kinds of things...NDE, out of body, alien abduction and so on. Some are outright frauds, some just want to sell books and others are accurate but explain nothing. Neuroscience is studying this phenomenon and while it's still not totally understood...it sure looks like...ONCE AGAIN...a natural explanation will be the answer. Here's a decent article on the subject from a reliable source:

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/happiness-in-world/201105/the-neurology-near-death-experiences

[Nemises]

To my knowledge there are many who have had near death experiences and came back to tell about it. Even clinically declared dead. The information is out there...plenty of books are available if you care to read them.

It’s ok, you can tell us here.
What/who did they see? God? St Peter? The Pearly Gates?

[OneEyedPie]

6 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Here's a decent article on the subject from a reliable source:

LOL.  ????

[Sunmaster]

4 hours ago, Nemises said:

 

It’s ok, you can tell us here.
What/who did they see? God? St Peter? The Pearly Gates?

 

 Too lazy to find out by yourself but quick to ridicule even scientific researches. I expected nothing less.

 

 

[Nemises]

 Too lazy to find out by yourself but quick to ridicule even scientific researches. I expected nothing less.

 

 

Welcome to TV.

It’s normal practice on here to provide a link to what ever it is you’re quoting that supports your claims, as opposed to telling others to go find it themselves and then calling them lazy for not doing so.

As such, please show us the link to the Pearly Gates....

[mauGR1]

10 hours ago, Nemises said:

Welcome to TV.

It’s normal practice on here to provide a link to what ever it is you’re quoting that supports your claims, as opposed to telling others to go find it themselves and then calling them lazy for not doing so.

As such, please show us the link to the Pearly Gates....

I don't know if such place exists, but i heard you're not allowed there if you tell porkies.

[transam]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I don't know if such place exists, but i heard you're not allowed there if you tell porkies.

It's a desert then.....????

[Sunmaster]

Google is your friend, they say. Or perhaps you may have heard of a place called library? 

 

In any case, I would like to make a point.

It seems this discussion is now revolving around 2 opposing "factions", science vs spirituality, with science supposedly trying to debunk spirituality. It did so with many religious beliefs and I'm very grateful for that. But as often mentioned, religion and spirituality are 2 very different things 

 

In my view, debunking spirituality would be impossible, just as it is impossible for your little toe to debunk you.

Science is an effective tool to understand and categorize the physical/material world. It can't and shouldn't be used to analyse subjective realities. It would be like using a sledgehammer to perform surgery.

For the inner/subjective and by extension spiritual realities, there are other tools available. If you don't want to explore those realities, that's fine, but then you can't claim they don't exist after you tried to sledgehammer your way in.

 

I made up a little story to illustrate my point of view...

 

Imagine you lived on a desert planet with very little water. You've learnt at school that there is this amazing element, how it's supposed to look, smell, feel and taste. But all your knowledge comes from books and stories, you've never seen or touched water. These stories are very old, many people now believe they are just that, stories, nothing more, ...even you.

Then one day, for some reason, you find yourself on a beach and for the first time you see the ocean. You are in awe, you slowly walk in, feel the water on your skin for the very first time, smell it, taste it, swim in it. It's amazing, it's beyond words. The stories at school pale compared to the real thing and you can't wait to go back and tell your family and friends about it. 

 

So you go back and tell everybody what you've experienced, but nobody believes you. They say it was just your imagination, a hallucination, that you must be crazy or just a loonie. Yet, in your heart, you know what you've experienced and you know it was more real than anything else. 

They say give me some proof that water exists! If you can't, that means is just mumbo jumbo. But how can you possibly prove it to them? They only way would be to go there and let them see/feel/taste it.

You know how to get there, but nobody's willing to follow you.

 

So what do you do?

You learn to keep it for yourself, but at the same time you feel sad for all those who could experience water for themselves but choose not to. You have no other choice, because if you insist, they will fight you, ridicule you, perhaps even stone or crucify you. 

 

This is the way how it is, and we are all players in this play. 

 

[upu2]

The birth could possibly be argued on the basis of IVF which I dont think they had at that time. As for believing in God, no he screwed up with Adam and Eve resulting in them leaving the garden of Eden. One thing I have never understood is why, if (assuming the existence of a god) he is so forgiving yet many people describe them selves as God fearing. Why would you fear a forgiving entity?

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 11:49 PM, notmyself said:

 

 

I didn't mean to make it about myself, wrong wording, but about everyone. However, I see that my plea has fallen on deaf ears.

Pointless response anyway as I'm agnostic, and devoted little of my life to religion.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, upu2 said:

The birth could possibly be argued on the basis of IVF which I dont think they had at that time. As for believing in God, no he screwed up with Adam and Eve resulting in them leaving the garden of Eden. One thing I have never understood is why, if (assuming the existence of a god) he is so forgiving yet many people describe them selves as God fearing. Why would you fear a forgiving entity?

Alas, forgiveness only comes with true repentance, and few, if any really repent. How many supposedly devout Christians actually sell all they have and give to the poor, etc?

[thaibeachlovers]

Last night I was in the countryside, far from streetlights, and looking up I saw the milky way in all it's glory.

Looking at it I wondered once again how could mere humans even think they know everything?

If anyone can look at the milky way and remembering that that is just one of an infinite number of galaxies think they actually "know" about the existence or otherwise of "God", I think they just don't have much of an imagination.

 

The other questions that come to mind are, if there is a God, where did God come from, and if there isn't, where did the universe come from, and don't try to tell me it just came into existence from nothing?

[Skeptic7]

 

4 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Google is your friend, they say. Or perhaps you may have heard of a place called library? 

 

In any case, I would like to make a point.

It seems this discussion is now revolving around 2 opposing "factions", science vs spirituality, with science supposedly trying to debunk spirituality. It did so with many religious beliefs and I'm very grateful for that. But as often mentioned, religion and spirituality are 2 very different things 

 

In my view, debunking spirituality would be impossible, just as it is impossible for your little toe to debunk you.

Science is an effective tool to understand and categorize the physical/material world. It can't and shouldn't be used to analyse subjective realities. It would be like using a sledgehammer to perform surgery.

For the inner/subjective and by extension spiritual realities, there are other tools available. If you don't want to explore those realities, that's fine, but then you can't claim they don't exist after you tried to sledgehammer your way in.

 

I made up a little story to illustrate my point of view...

 

Imagine you lived on a desert planet with very little water. You've learnt at school that there is this amazing element, how it's supposed to look, smell, feel and taste. But all your knowledge comes from books and stories, you've never seen or touched water. These stories are very old, many people now believe they are just that, stories, nothing more, ...even you.

Then one day, for some reason, you find yourself on a beach and for the first time you see the ocean. You are in awe, you slowly walk in, feel the water on your skin for the very first time, smell it, taste it, swim in it. It's amazing, it's beyond words. The stories at school pale compared to the real thing and you can't wait to go back and tell your family and friends about it. 

 

So you go back and tell everybody what you've experienced, but nobody believes you. They say it was just your imagination, a hallucination, that you must be crazy or just a loonie. Yet, in your heart, you know what you've experienced and you know it was more real than anything else. 

They say give me some proof that water exists! If you can't, that means is just mumbo jumbo. But how can you possibly prove it to them? They only way would be to go there and let them see/feel/taste it.

You know how to get there, but nobody's willing to follow you.

 

So what do you do?

You learn to keep it for yourself, but at the same time you feel sad for all those who could experience water for themselves but choose not to. You have no other choice, because if you insist, they will fight you, ridicule you, perhaps even stone or crucify you. 

 

This is the way how it is, and we are all players in this play. 

 

[mauGR1]

4 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

So what do you do?

You learn to keep it for yourself, but at the same time you feel sad for all those who could experience water for themselves but choose not to. You have no other choice, because if you insist, they will fight you, ridicule you, perhaps even stone or crucify you. 

 

This is the way how it is, and we are all players in this play. 

The way i see it, you can save yourself, but cannot save the whole world.

[mauGR1]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The other questions that come to mind are, if there is a God, where did God come from, and if there isn't, where did the universe come from, and don't try to tell me it just came into existence from nothing?

These questions have been asked since the beginning of time, but i'm afraid that until we are trapped within a physical body, there will be no proper answers.

[Skeptic7]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Last night I was in the countryside, far from streetlights, and looking up I saw the milky way in all it's glory.

Looking at it I wondered once again how could mere humans even think they know everything?

If anyone can look at the milky way and remembering that that is just one of an infinite number of galaxies think they actually "know" about the existence or otherwise of "God", I think they just don't have much of an imagination.

 

The other questions that come to mind are, if there is a God, where did God come from, and if there isn't, where did the universe come from, and don't try to tell me it just came into existence from nothing?

Yes...the Universe is vast. Any 12 year old knows that. WOW that's alot of parsecs and stars! Yes it is. We all understand awe. 

 

However your reasoning is flawed. In your example above, you assume that if there is no god, then the universe is not possible. I think we all agree the universe exists...though that is probably a stretch...but let's go with it. For a god to be given credit for creating the universe...one first has to prove said god exists. Just crowbarring god into the equation is a disingenuous attempt at inserting a non answer when actually it's not an answer at all. 

 

Solving an unknown by inserting an even bigger unknown is not an answer. Nor is it a pathway to finding what is true and correct. 

[OneEyedPie]

1 minute ago, Skeptic7 said:

Solving an unknown by inserting an even bigger unknown is not an answer. Nor is it a pathway to finding what is true and correct. 

That's some deep shit.  

[mauGR1]

12 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Solving an unknown by inserting an even bigger unknown is not an answer. Nor is it a pathway to finding what is true and correct. 

So which is the true and correct pathway ?

[ivor bigun]

If God made all the billions of planets and galexies,i wonder did he send his son Jesus to all the ones that have life on them? Or just to our Earth.?

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[OneEyedPie]

1 minute ago, ivor bigun said:

If God made all the billions of planets and galexies,i wonder did he send his son Jesus to all the ones that have life on them? Or just to our Earth.?

Good question.  It'll take me a while to think this one through.

[notmyself]

4 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Google is your friend, they say. Or perhaps you may have heard of a place called library? 

 

In any case, I would like to make a point.

It seems this discussion is now revolving around 2 opposing "factions", science vs spirituality, with science supposedly trying to debunk spirituality. It did so with many religious beliefs and I'm very grateful for that. But as often mentioned, religion and spirituality are 2 very different things

 

Apples and oranges since science or reason is a method while religion and spirituality is a belief and spirituality is religious belief with all the stigma of dogma stripped out. So nebulous is it that it's essentially nothing more than belief in belief.

 

 

 

 

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

So which is the true and correct pathway ?

Inquiry, investigation, exploration, experimentation, observation, probing and questioning, computer modeling, developing better exploratory tools, techniques and ideas, compiling all the data and computations, testing and retesting...for a start.

 

Then continue and do it more and again and more and again and over and over. Until then, the truthful answer is we don't know or don't yet know or developing a better understanding...

 

Certainly it's not just saying 'God did it' and leaving it at that. 

[StreetCowboy]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

These questions have been asked since the beginning of time, but i'm afraid that until we are trapped within a physical body, there will be no proper answers.

I don’t think it’s universally accepted that time had a beginning. But there is consensus that there were times before the beginning of people (unless one believes that time started with the beginning of chronology) so I put it to you that these questions have NOT been asked since the Beginning of Time.

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Inquiry, investigation, exploration, experimentation, observation, probing and questioning, computer modeling, developing better exploratory tools, techniques and ideas, compiling all the data and computations, testing and retesting...for a start.

 

Then continue and do it more and again and more and again and over and over. Until then, the truthful answer is we don't know or don't yet know or developing a better understanding...

 

Certainly it's not just saying 'God did it' and leaving it at that. 

I completely agree with ethical research, the point i try to make it, is "god did it" or "we don't know" are just different choices of words, thus irrelevant.

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I don’t think it’s universally accepted that time had a beginning. But there is consensus that there were times before the beginning of people (unless one believes that time started with the beginning of chronology) so I put it to you that these questions have NOT been asked since the Beginning of Time.

Obviously a figure of speech in my post, i try to be short not to annoy the people.

Time is another mysterious thing, which is not easy to debate in 2 words.

[StreetCowboy]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Obviously a figure of speech in my post, i try to be short not to annoy the people.

Time is another mysterious thing, which is not easy to debate in 2 words.

I think “Time immemorial” would have been a better turn of phrase, since that includes after we settled the bill and started paying cash for drinks in Sid’s Friday before last, when I’m fairly sure we discussed such questions

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I think “Time immemorial” would have been a better turn of phrase, since that includes after we settled the bill and started paying cash for drinks in Sid’s, when I’m fairly sure we discussed such questions

I remember quite vaguely proposing the theory that time is god, and someone trying to hit me with a bottle.

[StreetCowboy]

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I remember quite vaguely proposing the theory that time is god, and someone trying to hit me with a bottle.

I prefer to think of it as a suggestion, meant for discussion, rather than a proposal, but my wife saw otherwise