Do you believe in God and why

[Sunmaster]

18 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

 

Psychiatry does seem like the least advanced science - the stuff going on inside us must be complicated. I concur that a better solution to taking a blunt instrument such as prozac  may be to follow buddhist meditation or similar built up over 1000's of years of looking at the human experience. Science needs to catch up but I don't think there is a secret area where it doesn't apply.

In terms of debunked theories it may be a bit shallow but I was thinking of how the theosophical society, astrology, new age beliefs, telekinesis, ESP, belief in talking to dead people, and reiki massage all go in and out of fashion with no proof. 

I won't go into the merits or shortcomings of each of these, but from what I understand, science tried to explain them on its own terms, and when it failed to produce a satisfactory explanation, it kind of had to give up and move on. Not the same thing as debunking though.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, sirineou said:

Notice how you conveniently manage to ignore the Galileo comment . 

There is plenty on money for a scientist to make in religion, I think the one who scientifically proves the existence of God will do pretty well for him/her self don't you think?  

Science looks in to religious claims all the time, so far nothing ?

Science dates religious artifacts. When it comes to the  age of the shroud of Turin they used scientific methods, not faith. when religion claims miraculous cures, they are scientifically investigated.  etc. .  

No idea what you claim about Galileo so why would I comment?

My contribution has been about faith and spirituality, not religion, but keep talking about religion if you want. Don't expect me to respond though.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, Tagged said:

I aggree, totally, we are so far just a fart in the wind timewise if Im gonna use an expression. Very few humans can survive outside their tribes and modern facilities that makes us safe. Many have tried to live in the wilderness for a year, but most give up or die. So very few master the nature by themselves with few modern or none modern aids.  

 

 

Without modern amenities, IMO life tends to be short and brutal. One reason why people had many children, to replace all the ones that died quite early in life.

 

[Tagged]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Without modern amenities, IMO life tends to be short and brutal. One reason why people had many children, to replace all the ones that died quite early in life.

 

Not replace, but to make sure they had some offspring that made it, and could contribute to the family and take care of them when they got older. 

[sirineou]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No idea what you claim about Galileo so why would I comment?

My contribution has been about faith and spirituality, not religion, but keep talking about religion if you want. Don't expect me to respond though.

If you had not forgot what we are talking about you would know.

Our conversation started when you said,:

"LOL.

While "science" is scrabbling around in the dirt trying to explain how dirt works, they have IMO missed completely the magnificence of heaven that is all around if only one looks for it.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

"

To which I replied:

"You are absolutely tight, Science  should stop concentrating on dirt, and explore the Universe also, I don't understand why they left the exploration of the universe to religion.  "

using sarcasm to point out that Science been looking to the heavens all along.

Not getting it, you replied: 

something about your six pack. and

"

However to answer your query, I assume it's because they don't have a clue and apparently what they come up with is at best an educated guess.

I'd like scientists to be exploring spirituality, but I suppose there is no money to be made in that.

"

Still trying to decipher that one , but think you tried to imply that Science does not look at the heavens and wonder because they dont have a clue, and because there are no money to be made by looking at religion , to which I replied 

"There is no money to be made in religion? You got to be kidding. By the way I think Galileo got at least one thing right that religion had not.   "

Giving you Galileo as an example of one who looked at the heavens with wonder, Who had a clue, and compared him to the Church who when looking at the heavens had no clue. 

 

Try to keep up will you. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by sirineou
typo

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

If you had not forgot what we are talking about you would know.

Our conversation started when you said,:

"LOL.

While "science" is scrabbling around in the dirt trying to explain how dirt works, they have IMO missed completely the magnificence of heaven that is all around if only one looks for it.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

"

To which I replied:

"You are absolutely tight, Science  should stop concentrating on dirt, and explore the Universe also, I don't understand why they left the exploration of the universe to religion.  "

using sarcasm to point out that Science been looking to the heavens all along.

Not getting it, you replied: 

something about your six pack. and

"

However to answer your query, I assume it's because they don't have a clue and apparently what they come up with is at best an educated guess.

I'd like scientists to be exploring spirituality, but I suppose there is no money to be made in that.

"

Still trying to decipher that one , but think you tried to imply that Science does not look at the heavens and wonder because they dont have a clue, and because there are no money to be made by looking at religion , to which I replied 

"There is no money to be made in religion? You got to be kidding. By the way I think Galileo got at least one thing right that religion had not.   "

Giving you Galileo as an example of one who looked at the heavens with wonder, Who had a clue, and compared him to the Church who when looking at the heavens had no clue. 

 

Try to keep up will you. 

Galileo was a great scientist and a good man, would you say that all the scientists are so honest and hard working ? Are you serious?

@thaibeachlovers is right  if he's saying that many scientists are too busy making money, and they don't have the time to look at the heavens, so to speak. 

 

 

[sirineou]

22 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Galileo was a great scientist and a good man, would you say that all the scientists are so honest and hard working ? Are you serious?

@thaibeachlovers is right  if he's saying that many scientists are too busy making money, and they don't have the time to look at the heavens, so to speak. 

 

 

That's not what he said. Please read again. He said: see below quote.

Galileo was one of many that did not miss the magnifies of the heavens  , where everyone in the church did. 

But if you want to talk about dishonest scientists please do, for everyone that you bring to the table , I will see you and raise you five dishonest church officials, and millions of so called Christians or Muslims 

and by five I am being very kind.  

"

While "science" is scrabbling around in the dirt trying to explain how dirt works, they have IMO missed completely the magnificence of heaven that is all around if only one looks for it.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

"

I agree with the last statement though, indeed "there are non so blind as those  that will not see" 

Edited February 1, 2021 by sirineou

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, sirineou said:

If you had not forgot what we are talking about you would know.

Our conversation started when you said,:

"LOL.

While "science" is scrabbling around in the dirt trying to explain how dirt works, they have IMO missed completely the magnificence of heaven that is all around if only one looks for it.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

"

To which I replied:

"You are absolutely tight, Science  should stop concentrating on dirt, and explore the Universe also, I don't understand why they left the exploration of the universe to religion.  "

using sarcasm to point out that Science been looking to the heavens all along.

Not getting it, you replied: 

something about your six pack. and

"

However to answer your query, I assume it's because they don't have a clue and apparently what they come up with is at best an educated guess.

I'd like scientists to be exploring spirituality, but I suppose there is no money to be made in that.

"

Still trying to decipher that one , but think you tried to imply that Science does not look at the heavens and wonder because they dont have a clue, and because there are no money to be made by looking at religion , to which I replied 

"There is no money to be made in religion? You got to be kidding. By the way I think Galileo got at least one thing right that religion had not.   "

Giving you Galileo as an example of one who looked at the heavens with wonder, Who had a clue, and compared him to the Church who when looking at the heavens had no clue. 

 

Try to keep up will you. 

Don't understand what you are on about with all that, but it appears that you confuse my reference to "heavens" with the sky.

 

The comment about a six pack was because you claimed I was tight.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, Tagged said:

Not replace, but to make sure they had some offspring that made it, and could contribute to the family and take care of them when they got older. 

That is what I meant, but perhaps you missed the linkage.

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Don't understand what you are on about with all that, but it appears that you confuse my reference to "heavens" with the sky.

 

The comment about a six pack was because you claimed I was tight.

Why what do you confuse the heavens with?

[Tagged]

And in the mean time, one of the biggest challenge we will meet in the future, is dibelief in science, and more belief in conspirations and diffuse religions and other unhealthy belief systems. 

[Sunmaster]

18 minutes ago, Tagged said:

And in the mean time, one of the biggest challenge we will meet in the future, is dibelief in science, and more belief in conspirations and diffuse religions and other unhealthy belief systems. 

What do you think is an indicator for an unhealthy belief system? 

[Tagged]

16 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

What do you think is an indicator for an unhealthy belief system? 

An extreme example q-anon, more acceptable belief system still unhealthy is the 3 book religions, and god sake I have also followed friends who have been attending different famous yoga facilities for good and bad because they needed something right there and then, but in the long term could turn out to be very unhealthy for the most. 

 

Another unhealthy not exactly religion, but act the same way, but still feel above the society, is 1% biker clans, gangs or what you want to call their lifestyle who strive to be above and outside.  

 

I would also say the dangerous of different independent spiritualism sects and cults can catch people at a bad moment in life who is also vulnerable, and take them far away from reality. This is not only a spiritualism problem that vulnerable people getting fixed ideas about a belief system would help them, and in fact might do the opposite. 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Tagged

[undercover]

Signs of Satan are all around you , Most are blind to it , Satan's in the logos of corporate business , Medicine and pharmaceutical , We have been lied to since birth about everything yet only a few of us can see it , Your question do I believe in God ? That depends what God your talking about , Certainly the creature commonly known as Satan Lucifer Beelzebub is in control here.

Americans belief in the devil is growing , according to Gallup polls. In 1990 , 55 percent of Americans said they believed in the devil . In 2001 , that was 68 percent and in 2007 , it had increased to 70 percent .

[Tagged]

15 minutes ago, undercover said:

Signs of Satan are all around you , Most are blind to it , Satan's in the logos of corporate business , Medicine and pharmaceutical , We have been lied to since birth about everything yet only a few of us can see it , Your question do I believe in God ? That depends what God your talking about , Certainly the creature commonly known as Satan Lucifer Beelzebub is in control here.

Americans belief in the devil is growing , according to Gallup polls. In 1990 , 55 percent of Americans said they believed in the devil . In 2001 , that was 68 percent and in 2007 , it had increased to 70 percent .

If you believe in + you have to belive in a - as well!

 

Ying Yang out

[Peter Denis]

14 minutes ago, Tagged said:

...

I would also say the dangerous of different independent spiritualism sects and cults can catch people at a bad moment in life who is also vulnerable, and take them far away from reality. This is not only a spiritualism problem that vulnerable people getting fixed ideas about a belief system would help them, and in fact might do the opposite.

As you correctly pointed out, 'unhealthy belief systems' are not limited to those looking for sense and meaning in life.  That latter category of seekers are attracted to spirituality.

But if that search is a substitute for not being able to cope with real life, of course it will lead nowhere as it will be nothing more than an endless attraction to new 'spiritual' flavors of the month.  Here the word of frater Albertus springs to mind 'When seeking becomes addiction'.

Or as Gurdjieff - the ultimate brutal 'in your face' master - already emphesized, when you cannot successfully cope with daily reality, you will not be able to go the even more difficult path of being in this world, but not of this world.

[Tagged]

2 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

As you correctly pointed out, 'unhealthy belief systems' are not limited to those looking for sense and meaning in life.  That latter category of seekers are attracted to spirituality.

But if that search is a substitute for not being able to cope with real life, of course it will lead nowhere as it will be nothing more than an endless attraction to new 'spiritual' flavors of the month.  Here the word of frater Albertus springs to mind 'When seeking becomes addiction'.

Or as Gurdjieff - the ultimate brutal 'in your face' master - already emphesized, when you cannot successfully cope with daily reality, you will not be able to go the even more difficult path of being in this world, but not of this world.

I guss a surten percentage of the population have a dependency or addiction problem or both? Many of those  is drawn to surten belief systems which can be a substitute or replacement of other stimuli addictions. Be it abuse of substances, extreme sports, or just training that also create addiction, and for some reasons have quit or stopped. That hole or emptiness need to be filled with something. 

 

Others who just struggle to fit in some place in the society as well, need something to hang to. Mental problems is also a cause to search for other sulutions outside of themselves.  

 

I believe we are built that way to find something or someone to put the responsibillity on, and therefor can be an easy target for those who use this is a tool for their own purposes, either it is power, been seen (fame), or just to enrich themselvs. 

 

Humans is complex and sometimes need complex food for thought, no matter how far out it is. The easier solutions and maybe closer solutions is very often dissmissed or overlooked, and of no interest. It doesnt fit in this complex and chaotic world. Simplicity is to easy, and nobody want easy. 

 

Just see how we interact with aech other and especially with our gf or wife, who wants easy? We need a mind challenge or at last someone who can fullfill us, and very often we are drawn to the  impossible ???? 

 

Some do learn from their mistakes and weaknesses, and some do not, I guess it is still all abut survival of the fittest, but not as it used to be. Now most of us (at least in here) is safe, have food, have freedom, and time. Maybe to much time to think is the biggest problem in this world. At the end, we just want to fit in the society, bee seen, provide for family, be there for them as a person who is liked and respected. Most of us want that, and that is what we all search for i believe. 

 

The controversy is that the safer we become, the more negative news, movies and complex lifestyles we are drawn to, and it seems we can not cope with safe and a good life. Just look at the daily news? And look at what kind public personalities some of the percent of the population is drawn to?  Why? 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Tagged

[Sunmaster]

3 hours ago, Tagged said:

An extreme example q-anon, more acceptable belief system still unhealthy is the 3 book religions, and god sake I have also followed friends who have been attending different famous yoga facilities for good and bad because they needed something right there and then, but in the long term could turn out to be very unhealthy for the most. 

 

Another unhealthy not exactly religion, but act the same way, but still feel above the society, is 1% biker clans, gangs or what you want to call their lifestyle who strive to be above and outside.  

 

I would also say the dangerous of different independent spiritualism sects and cults can catch people at a bad moment in life who is also vulnerable, and take them far away from reality. This is not only a spiritualism problem that vulnerable people getting fixed ideas about a belief system would help them, and in fact might do the opposite. 

 

 

All good examples.
Unhealthy BS can be found across all religions, non religious beliefs, all social strata, every country...they are virtually everywhere. We can bring examples from extreme materialism, sexual perversions, psychological disfunctions etc etc.
I think it's evident that unhealthy BS causes all kinds of problems and thus suffering.
But what is the common denominator for all of them? What's the source of all of them?

At the cost of sounding repetitive, I would bring in what Buddha found researching the very same problem: Suffering is caused by selfish craving and personal desire.

When the ego reigns supreme, it will go to unimaginable lengths to quell its thirst for satisfaction (jumping from one spiritual workshop to the next, addiction to shopping, to sex, to how the body looks, to money, power and so on). When one thing has been reached and failed to give lasting happiness, then the next desire arises immediately. It's a never ending circle of unfulfilled desires and according to Buddhism, it's those unfulfilled desires that force us to incarnate again and again. 

Nobody is immune to this of course. Fortunately though, we've been given instructions on how to break this vicious circle. The only requirement is to admit that we have an unhealthy BS and take the first step to rectify it. 

 

[Tagged]

4 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

All good examples.
Unhealthy BS can be found across all religions, non religious beliefs, all social strata, every country...they are virtually everywhere. We can bring examples from extreme materialism, sexual perversions, psychological disfunctions etc etc.
I think it's evident that unhealthy BS causes all kinds of problems and thus suffering.
But what is the common denominator for all of them? What's the source of all of them?

At the cost of sounding repetitive, I would bring in what Buddha found researching the very same problem: Suffering is caused by selfish craving and personal desire.

When the ego reigns supreme, it will go to unimaginable lengths to quell its thirst for satisfaction (jumping from one spiritual workshop to the next, addiction to shopping, to sex, to how the body looks, to money, power and so on). When one thing has been reached and failed to give lasting happiness, then the next desire arises immediately. It's a never ending circle of unfulfilled desires and according to Buddhism, it's those unfulfilled desires that force us to incarnate again and again. 

Nobody is immune to this of course. Fortunately though, we've been given instructions on how to break this vicious circle. The only requirement is to admit that we have an unhealthy BS and take the first step to rectify it. 

 

Again the root of <deleted>, is to much time to think and to much vealth? Sexual drive? 

 

I think ego is necessery to be creative on a survival level, that you need people who is not only driven by what everybody else want and need, and thats where also desire kicks in. We all need to bee seen, get acknowleded, admired and so on to be attractive to others. 

 

I truly do not believe we would have seen the world we have today without creed either or war. Without all those elements we would still have been monkeys on the ground with language and houses. How far have the native people in amazonas made it wo still are almost untouched by humans? Is that truly the ultimate lifestyle, or ? 

 

Sorry for the monkey illustration if somebody thinks that is inappropriate. 

[quake]

3 hours ago, Tagged said:

If you believe in + you have to belive in a - as well!

 

Ying Yang out

 Reminds me of this scene, many moons ago. 

 

[Tagged]

9 minutes ago, quake said:

 Reminds me of this scene, many moons ago. 

 

We all have it in us, good and bad, and sometimes when you are good to someone, or do some good, you might  also do bad to someone or something. 

[Sunmaster]

11 minutes ago, Tagged said:

Again the root of <deleted>, is to much time to think and to much vealth? Sexual drive? 

 

I think ego is necessery to be creative on a survival level, that you need people who is not only driven by what everybody else want and need, and thats where also desire kicks in. We all need to bee seen, get acknowleded, admired and so on to be attractive to others. 

 

I truly do not believe we would have seen the world we have today without creed either or war. Without all those elements we would still have been monkeys on the ground with language and houses. How far have the native people in amazonas made it wo still are almost untouched by humans? Is that truly the ultimate lifestyle, or ? 

 

Sorry for the monkey illustration if somebody thinks that is inappropriate. 

I believe in unhealthy and healthy egos. If we compare the ego to a monkey, the unhealthy ego is a wild monkey that jumps uncontrolled from one place to the next and wrecks your house in the process. The healthy ego is still a monkey, but one who has been tamed and is under your control.

 

[Tagged]

Just now, Sunmaster said:

I believe in unhealthy and healthy egos. If we compare the ego to a monkey, the unhealthy ego is a wild monkey that jumps uncontrolled from one place to the next and wrecks your house in the process. The healthy ego is still a monkey, but one who has been tamed and is under your control.

 

Oh, I had monkey in appartment after we forgot to close the balcony door 6 floors up. The monkeys in the forrest know when they put fruit and food on the rooftop, and then come for a raid. But we where lucky. Only juice boxes, nuts and oats they managed to grap before we came home. 

 

They just providing for their tribe, and like humans, they like to go shopping at places like mc donalds. Fast food places ????

 

 

[Elad]

What's your thoughts on the pure randomness we observe on a fundamental level, and how does it fit in with a creator? 

[Tagged]

8 minutes ago, Elad said:

What's your thoughts on the pure randomness we observe on a fundamental level, and how does it fit in with a creator? 

Who you adress this Q for?

[Peter Denis]

4 minutes ago, Elad said:

What's your thoughts on the pure randomness we observe on a fundamental level, and how does it fit in with a creator? 

There is no such thing as pure randomness, there are only individual events of which the causes are not fully understood. 

Statistical science is actually based on this.  When collecting sufficient 'random' data of individual events, the underlying pattern will become visible allowing you to make reasonable accurate predictions of what at first glance - and on individual level - looks totally unpredictable and random.

[mauGR1]

9 minutes ago, Elad said:

What's your thoughts on the pure randomness we observe on a fundamental level, and how does it fit in with a creator? 

Some of the "pure" randomness you observe may be not pure, or not even randomness.. But randomness indeed may exist,  and be part of the design. 

Of course I start from the fact that my perception is subjective,  and that's probably the same for most humans. 

In my best moments,  everything looks absolutely perfect and in the right place.

[Sunmaster]

59 minutes ago, Elad said:

What's your thoughts on the pure randomness we observe on a fundamental level, and how does it fit in with a creator? 

I completely agree with @Peter Denis

[Elad]

3 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

There is no such thing as pure randomness, there are only individual events of which the causes are not fully understood. 

Statistical science is actually based on this.  When collecting sufficient 'random' data of individual events, the underlying pattern will become visible allowing you to make reasonable accurate predictions of what at first glance - and on individual level - looks totally unpredictable and random.

There's a few examples of indeterminism but I think the best one is how photons of light behave in a device that's based on a half silvered mirror.

 

When single photons are fired at the mirror which is at an angle of 45 degrees, then there's an equal probability that the photon land at detector '1' and detector '0'. Which of the two detectors fires when a photon is incident on the mirror is completely random.

If you ran an experiment like this, you will never find any sequence or pattern in the way the photons are detected, not in a million years or until the end of time in the universe, a pattern will never emerge.

 Notice how the detectors are labelled '0' and '1' this can be interpreted as binary code in computers and they are used today for science and engineering, cryptography and they're also used in gambling or slot machines. They are known as 'Quantum Random Number Generators'. 

 

Are you telling me that's not pure randomness?

[Tagged]

What is most intersting is that we are more alike the animals in DNA and in fact we share quite alot with the gene structures of vegetables and fruit as well. 

 

By time we will evolve to adopt to new enviroment or go destinct, but some will survive and continue to evolve. It could look like the dna can transform in to anything by time as long it benefits and can survive on the terms given by nature. 

 

So again, did life start on planet earth? If there was a creator do this creator still exists? Or do the creator even know about planet earth. 

 

The most interesting is we ourselves is a universe to someone else, who for sure do not know we exists. Just think about it