Do you believe in God and why

mauGR1 · May 19, 2021

38 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Still on the religion thing, I see.

I don't know why I bother trying to explain that some of us are not talking about religion at all, as it doesn't seem to make any difference, and the anti religious post just keep on coming.

It's frankly disappointing to see that so many who contribute to this thread are confused between religion, spirituality, and the idea of a creator supreme being.

What are they thinking, God only knows.

Sunmaster · May 19, 2021

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Of course i talk about scientific proof that is the only proof that counts. The latter is subjective and not proof at all.

Sorry, but according to whom is that the only proof that counts? Just because you believe it to be so, doesn't make it so.

Imagine you're back a few hundred years ago. You suffer from an illness and the doctor prescribes you to take quicksilver, because after all, it is well known to cure this disease and the doctor could give you all sorts of scientific explanations for its effectiveness. But guess what, you take the "medicine" and feel much, much worse. Which proof will take precedence for you? The "scientific" one that says it will cure you, or your own "subjective" one that says it's not good for you?

This takes me to another one of your statements:

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Actually that is where you and i differ, atheist accept science and have been proven right all the time.

First of all, I want to make it clear that I also accept science. Look at my avatar pic....Spock was after all a science officer!

But really!?...proven right all the time?? ???? Well, I'll attribute this (extreme) statement to your desire to make a point, and that you don't seriously believe in it. For that reason it gets an amused chuckle from me and I'll just leave it at that. ????

2 hours ago, robblok said:

IMHO there are only things left undiscovered by science, you can almost explain everything in nature.

Erm, no, you can't. Actually, we're still VERY far from explaining everything in nature.

But I do admire your confidence and optimism.

2 hours ago, robblok said:

I purely believe in science and given that almost all things previously attributed to some god or an other are now explained by science it just shows that there is no higher power.

No problem that you have blind faith in science. The second part of the statement though is far from being true, especially your hasty conclusion.
Please understand that you need the right tools for a specific job. You wouldn't perform brain surgery with a hammer and screwdriver, would you? And you wouldn't repair your car with a scalpel, right?
The same goes for exploring the more subtle aspects of life. You need the right tools to do that, and they aren't machines. Of that I am pretty sure. The question then is, are you willing to use the right tools?

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Of course I can be challenged, if you come up with scientific proof of a god ill review my opinion. Its that simple atheists are science reality based people. Religious people are faith (opinion based). In all things in life we only accept facts and things we can prove why should religion be any different.

Yes, you can be challenged, but only if the challenge happens on your own turf. Spirituality is not something that can be measured in scientific terms, and your persistence in demanding that won't change a thing. It just won't happen.
So, if you really can be challenged like you say, then it should be on the grounds that are in question here, not the scientific ones.
Basically, you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. You know what they say about insanity...."doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I think your problem comes from the fact that you try to defend something that has no FACTS or Science to back it up. So you try to change the most fundamental base of debating to get your opinion validated. That is not how it works.

Don't you see the irony? You're trying to explain through science something that is not explainable through science. You get the results you already expect to see (science can't prove the existence of a Higher Power)....ergo there is no Higher Power.
The logic in this is completely flawed.
So, who's trying to change the fundamental base of debating? Square peg - round hole!

2 hours ago, robblok said:

I would change my opinion because i cannot deny these facts. Because these facts i can reproduce and check.

As I mentioned many times before, what you do and experience during spiritual practice is absolutely reproducible and can be checked by anyone willing to try. That's why we have spiritual paths that go back 1000s of years. The students follow the instructions of the teachers, reproduce and validate the experiences and therefore find their own proof for those teachings. The insights along the path become established facts, just like the facts you're talking about.

2 hours ago, robblok said:

Most atheists would change their opinion based on new facts, if there comes a day that science can prove there is a god id change my opinion. Its that simple.

Yeah, right. ????

2 hours ago, robblok said:

I have always changed my opinions based on new facts if they become available. That is how things work. Science is constantly challenging itself and evolving religion does not really do that. Ok bible went from old to new testament but that is an exception. Muslims for instance will only accept the koran for true and accept no changes.

I agree, the same goes for me.
Religion does it too, but at an almost imperceptible slow pace and their unwillingness to change (faster) will be their own downfall. So be it.
But religion and spirituality are not the same. I suggest you first learn about the difference between the two, so that you can then argue your points better.

tgw · May 19, 2021

35 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Fame must have gone to Fry's head to think that God, the creator of life the universe and everything would even pretend to be a human to talk to him, IMO.

As for cancer, it's more likely IMO that we created that by living unhealthy lives, polluting the atmosphere, polluting the oceans, living in toxic cities, and filling our lives with a constant barrage of hate from every news outlet. When kids are killing themselves because other kids are bullying them something has gone very wrong with humanity. The Christ taught us to forgive those that do us wrong and love our enemies as ourselves, to do the right thing and not cast the first stone, but it seems that humans have perverted that message to such an extent that many have turned against it and believe that religion is only evil. Yes, some humans are evil, but that doesn't mean that the Christ was wrong.

sure.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/the-history-of-cancer-514101

I think believers would just be terrified of living if they didn't have their belief(s).

Rampant Rabbit · May 19, 2021

Yes because Hamas and Israel both do, God's doing a great job, as usual.

robblok · May 19, 2021

54 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Sorry, but according to whom is that the only proof that counts? Just because you believe it to be so, doesn't make it so.

Imagine you're back a few hundred years ago. You suffer from an illness and the doctor prescribes you to take quicksilver, because after all, it is well known to cure this disease and the doctor could give you all sorts of scientific explanations for its effectiveness. But guess what, you take the "medicine" and feel much, much worse. Which proof will take precedence for you? The "scientific" one that says it will cure you, or your own "subjective" one that says it's not good for you?

This takes me to another one of your statements:

First of all, I want to make it clear that I also accept science. Look at my avatar pic....Spock was after all a science officer!

But really!?...proven right all the time?? ???? Well, I'll attribute this (extreme) statement to your desire to make a point, and that you don't seriously believe in it. For that reason it gets an amused chuckle from me and I'll just leave it at that. ????

Erm, no, you can't. Actually, we're still VERY far from explaining everything in nature.

But I do admire your confidence and optimism.

No problem that you have blind faith in science. The second part of the statement though is far from being true, especially your hasty conclusion.
Please understand that you need the right tools for a specific job. You wouldn't perform brain surgery with a hammer and screwdriver, would you? And you wouldn't repair your car with a scalpel, right?
The same goes for exploring the more subtle aspects of life. You need the right tools to do that, and they aren't machines. Of that I am pretty sure. The question then is, are you willing to use the right tools?

Yes, you can be challenged, but only if the challenge happens on your own turf. Spirituality is not something that can be measured in scientific terms, and your persistence in demanding that won't change a thing. It just won't happen.
So, if you really can be challenged like you say, then it should be on the grounds that are in question here, not the scientific ones.
Basically, you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. You know what they say about insanity...."doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

Don't you see the irony? You're trying to explain through science something that is not explainable through science. You get the results you already expect to see (science can't prove the existence of a Higher Power)....ergo there is no Higher Power.
The logic in this is completely flawed.
So, who's trying to change the fundamental base of debating? Square peg - round hole!

As I mentioned many times before, what you do and experience during spiritual practice is absolutely reproducible and can be checked by anyone willing to try. That's why we have spiritual paths that go back 1000s of years. The students follow the instructions of the teachers, reproduce and validate the experiences and therefore find their own proof for those teachings. The insights along the path become established facts, just like the facts you're talking about.

Yeah, right. ????

I agree, the same goes for me.
Religion does it too, but at an almost imperceptible slow pace and their unwillingness to change (faster) will be their own downfall. So be it.
But religion and spirituality are not the same. I suggest you first learn about the difference between the two, so that you can then argue your points better.

I have read up on spirituality but its too vague too broad. A lot of it is just pure non sense spiritual healing for instance no proof of it working. Maybe i should just ask you what you believe about it and then comment because this is futile. Without you making claims i cannot argue them. I do know that i had a time i was into these things. Then i found its too floaty for my analytic mind.

So what is it for YOU.

Basically science is what can be proven and repeated to prove this is it. Is there a lot to be discovered yes. Does spirituality have any proof depends maybe on what you think is possible. I got a friend who thinks people can communicate with dogs on the astral plane. I think its crazy and there is no proof so what do you think about that kind of spirituality ?

If your talking about meditation then there is proof of it working (brain studies).

So what is it to you ?

robblok · May 19, 2021

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

It's frankly disappointing to see that so many who contribute to this thread are confused between religion, spirituality, and the idea of a creator supreme being.

What are they thinking, God only knows.

Actually all things that cannot be proven are the same to me a lot of B.S. Meditation seems to be working and is proven. So it really depends what your talking about.

mauGR1 · May 19, 2021

25 minutes ago, robblok said:

Actually all things that cannot be proven are the same to me a lot of B.S. Meditation seems to be working and is proven. So it really depends what your talking about.

Fair enough, although i think that you should decide if you're interested in the subject or not.

Saying "it's all BS" because science can't prove it, it's not really encouraging, but I'll give you a clue...

Thoughts don't exist in the physical realm, but it's undeniable that all human inventions have some "thought " at the origin... so it's not really illogical to think that there is some "thought " at the origin of the physical world.

robblok · May 19, 2021

1 minute ago, mauGR1 said:

Fair enough, although i think that you should decide if you're interested in the subject or not.

Saying "it's all BS" because science can't prove it, it's not really encouraging, but I'll give you a clue...

Thoughts don't exist in the physical realm, but it's undeniable that all human inventions have some "thought " at the origin... so it's not really illogical to think that there is some "thought " at the origin of the physical world.

Are you referring to creationism ? I mean please keep things concrete. So we can discuss. That is the problem with spirituality people keep saying vague things so they cannot be pinned down on it. If you want to discuss something you have to be clear.

What do you exactly mean, thoughts can be measured (ok can't find out what people think but they can measure people thinking)

https://engineering.mit.edu/engage/ask-an-engineer/how-are-thoughts-measured/#:~:text=For the most part%2C however,single neuron%2C” says Jennings.

Sunmaster · May 19, 2021

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I have read up on spirituality but its too vague too broad. A lot of it is just pure non sense spiritual healing for instance no proof of it working. Maybe i should just ask you what you believe about it and then comment because this is futile. Without you making claims i cannot argue them. I do know that i had a time i was into these things. Then i found its too floaty for my analytic mind.

So what is it for YOU.

Basically science is what can be proven and repeated to prove this is it. Is there a lot to be discovered yes. Does spirituality have any proof depends maybe on what you think is possible. I got a friend who thinks people can communicate with dogs on the astral plane. I think its crazy and there is no proof so what do you think about that kind of spirituality ?

If your talking about meditation then there is proof of it working (brain studies).

So what is it to you ?

That's very true. When one approaches the spirituality field, there's A LOT of stuff that makes your eyes roll, as well as a lot of people promoting wacky ideas just to sell their products. It becomes difficult to weed out the worthy from the useless.

How to do it then?

Well, I think the best way would be to start from a point where you feel comfortable (that you feel you can trust) and then branch out into the unknown. You seem to accept meditation as valid, so that would be a good start. See where it takes you. Consciousness research could be another good starting point. Science (unnecessarily) likes to put its stamp of approval on yoga and meditation, but there is no need. It has been known to work for millennia, with or without science's approval.

For me...
In a nutshell, I considered myself atheist until age 23, when I experienced a so-called "spontaneous awakening". I had no idea what it was at the time, but I could no longer deny the "proof" and the "evidence" that there is indeed something more to life than what we see and touch, or what science can explain.
For a while I researched everything I could lay may hands on, trying to make sense and integrate that experience. Science of course had no answers other than very shallow explanations ("psychosis", "hallucinations", "brain chemistry imbalance"?)
I dove into some of those stranger fields (Mayan Calendar, crystals, Reiki etc), but also learned a lot about religions in general, what those belief systems have in common, philosophy, psychology, history, shamanism, I've read the great mystics and spiritual masters and and and....
Nowadays, I just post on ThaiVisa. ????

Jokes apart, nowadays I tend to keep to the basics and what I feel works best for me. In particular Kriya Yoga meditation (Paramhansa Yogananda) and Self-Inquiry as taught by Ramana Maharshi. That's plenty to keep me going and I don't feel the need for any other "New Age" supplements, nor do I waste time with religious dogma, ...or scientific dogma for that matter.
Spirituality for me is that pull towards the inside, that unknown that hints towards something much bigger than one could ever imagine, the absolute need to discover my true identity. There is no science, machine or dogma that can do that for me.
Spirituality for me, represents the science of the inner world and its instruments are meditation and introspection.

So, if you want to discuss spirituality, I'll be happy to do that.
However, if you prefer talking about religion, then I'd rather sign off and wish you bon voyage.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Sunmaster

robblok · May 19, 2021

4 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

That's very true. When one approaches the spirituality field, there's A LOT of stuff that makes your eyes roll, as well as a lot of people promoting wacky ideas just to sell their products. It becomes difficult to weed out the worthy from the useless.

How to do it then?

Well, I think the best way would be to start from a point where you feel comfortable (that you feel you can trust) and then branch out into the unknown. You seem to accept meditation as valid, so that would be a good start. See where it takes you. Consciousness research could be another good starting point. Science (unnecessarily) likes to put its stamp of approval on yoga and meditation, but there is no need. It has been known to work for millennia, with or without science's approval.

For me...
In a nutshell, I considered myself atheist until age 23, when I experienced a so-called "spontaneous awakening". I had no idea what it was at the time, but I could no longer deny the "proof" and the "evidence" that there is indeed something more to life than what we see and touch, or what science can explain.
For a while I researched everything I could lay may hands on, trying to make sense and integrate that experience. Science of course had no answers other than very shallow explanations ("psychosis", "hallucinations", "brain chemistry imbalance"?)
I dove into some of those stranger fields (Mayan Calendar, crystals, Reiki etc), but also learned a lot about religions in general, what those belief systems have in common, philosophy, psychology, history, shamanism, I've read the great mystics and spiritual masters and and and....
Nowadays, I just post on ThaiVisa. ????

Jokes apart, nowadays I tend to keep to the basics and what I feel works best for me. In particular Kriya Yoga meditation (Paramhansa Yogananda) and Self-Inquiry as taught by Ramana Maharshi. That's plenty to keep me going and I don't feel the need for any other "New Age" supplements, nor do I waste time with religious dogma, or scientific dogma for that matter.
Spirituality for me is that pull towards the inside, that unknown that hints towards something much bigger than one could ever imagine, the absolute need to discover my true identity. There is no science, machine or dogma that can do that for me.
Spirituality for me, represents the science of the inner world and its instruments are meditation and introspection.

So, if you want to discuss spirituality, I'll be happy to do that.
However, if you prefer talking about religion, then I'd rather sign off and wish you bon voyage.

Meditation works and has been proven scientifically. So i have no problems with that at all. Its just training your brain in a certain way. Just because something has been around for milenia does not validate them. Remember religion has been around long too does not validate it.

But stuff like yoga meditation and even prayer can make people feel better. That is not really floaty that is just the power of positive thinking. You see it in weight lifting too. I once made a mistake of putting too much on the bar (miscount). I was convinced i could do this weight and i did it. Later i found out it was more then i ever did before. (not a huge hurdle but big enough). Sometimes people have mental blocks and meditation positive thinking can help. If your convinced you can do something sometimes you can. If you start out thinking you can't you usually fail.

These are proven facts so i consider them validated by science. The body is capable of a lot of things if we set our mind to it. Plenty of evidence of that. I don't consider it floaty or strange. Because it has been proven over and over. I don't think that prayer works because of god but because of a state of mind.

I am have read a lot about religion just to know what makes people tick, in general i just ignore peoples religion as i said before its futile to discuss religion. If someone is a nice guy or girl that is enough for me. I avoid stuff that sows conflict. But it baffles me how seemingly smart people can go for creationism and say the earth is 6000 years old. However their beliefs in general dont do me harm so i let them be.

I am more opposed to religion when it limits me. I am Dutch and now we got euthanasie but it took a long time and a lot of religious parties were against it. That is what i hate about religion they tell others what to do. If you don't want to take part in euthanasie then so be it why limit it for others because YOU believe its a sin. (you is not you but religious people in general i know your not that kind of religious). Only because religion is getting less powerful in my country did we get these changes. Now they will try to make the laws even better as the power of the Church is declining.

I can understand resistance against abortion (though im pro within certain time) as they worry about the rights of a child. But that is different then me having a say how my life is ended.

Just to give you an insight in why i often have a problem with religions. Same as in Thailand I am not a drinker of alcohol (not often anyway) I laugh at the people who have a problem with the dry days. However i get their point and agree with it that it should not be state mandated but religious people themselves should abide by it if their fate is strong enough. Why ban things like that as these are personal choices.

Sunmaster · May 19, 2021

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

Meditation works and has been proven scientifically. So i have no problems with that at all. Its just training your brain in a certain way. Just because something has been around for milenia does not validate them. Remember religion has been around long too does not validate it.

But stuff like yoga meditation and even prayer can make people feel better. That is not really floaty that is just the power of positive thinking. You see it in weight lifting too. I once made a mistake of putting too much on the bar (miscount). I was convinced i could do this weight and i did it. Later i found out it was more then i ever did before. (not a huge hurdle but big enough). Sometimes people have mental blocks and meditation positive thinking can help. If your convinced you can do something sometimes you can. If you start out thinking you can't you usually fail.

These are proven facts so i consider them validated by science. The body is capable of a lot of things if we set our mind to it. Plenty of evidence of that. I don't consider it floaty or strange. Because it has been proven over and over. I don't think that prayer works because of god but because of a state of mind.

I am have read a lot about religion just to know what makes people tick, in general i just ignore peoples religion as i said before its futile to discuss religion. If someone is a nice guy or girl that is enough for me. I avoid stuff that sows conflict. But it baffles me how seemingly smart people can go for creationism and say the earth is 6000 years old. However their beliefs in general dont do me harm so i let them be.

I am more opposed to religion when it limits me. I am Dutch and now we got euthanasie but it took a long time and a lot of religious parties were against it. That is what i hate about religion they tell others what to do. If you don't want to take part in euthanasie then so be it why limit it for others because YOU believe its a sin. (you is not you but religious people in general i know your not that kind of religious). Only because religion is getting less powerful in my country did we get these changes. Now they will try to make the laws even better as the power of the Church is declining.

I can understand resistance against abortion (though im pro within certain time) as they worry about the rights of a child. But that is different then me having a say how my life is ended.

Just to give you an insight in why i often have a problem with religions. Same as in Thailand I am not a drinker of alcohol (not often anyway) I laugh at the people who have a problem with the dry days. However i get their point and agree with it that it should not be state mandated but religious people themselves should abide by it if their fate is strong enough. Why ban things like that as these are personal choices.

I completely agree with your take on euthanasia and abortion.

Re meditation/yoga however, I'd like to make a clarification... Meditation is not about "happy thoughts" or "positive thinking". They may come as results of meditation, but are not equal to it. Meditation is a state you reach after calming the mind....and that is bloody hard work.

Also, Yoga is not what we Westerners believe it to be....stretching the body on a beach at sunset, bending over backwards making silly faces. That is called Hatha Yoga (body yoga) and just one of several types of Yoga. The others highlight devotion, truth, surrender and correct breathing for example.

robblok · May 19, 2021

56 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

I completely agree with your take on euthanasia and abortion.

Re meditation/yoga however, I'd like to make a clarification... Meditation is not about "happy thoughts" or "positive thinking". They may come as results of meditation, but are not equal to it. Meditation is a state you reach after calming the mind....and that is bloody hard work.

Also, Yoga is not what we Westerners believe it to be....stretching the body on a beach at sunset, bending over backwards making silly faces. That is called Hatha Yoga (body yoga) and just one of several types of Yoga. The others highlight devotion, truth, surrender and correct breathing for example.

Yes its about calming the mind, i tried meditation watched the Netflix documentary about it. Of course i know that the yoga you were talking about was not the western yoga. I got that. When i was talking about positive thinking it was more about showing that the mind can do a lot of things and influence the body to a certain extent. The mind is a powerful thing.

I had my share of hallucinations but they were induced by shrooms and just brought out what was already in my head. (had a wrong trip but because i knew what i was on i just ignored it and went to sleep). Drugs have been used by shamans for ages. To be honest i don't see that as communication with higher beings or whatever but just the visualization of things people are thinking about subconsciously or even guide their hallucinations a certain way.

But yoga and meditation are not outlandish things, I am more talking about paranormal feeling (did experiment with it when young) and stuff like talking to people and animals on the astral plane and stuff like that.

mauGR1 · May 19, 2021

2 hours ago, robblok said:

Yes its about calming the mind, i tried meditation watched the Netflix documentary about it. Of course i know that the yoga you were talking about was not the western yoga. I got that. When i was talking about positive thinking it was more about showing that the mind can do a lot of things and influence the body to a certain extent. The mind is a powerful thing.

I had my share of hallucinations but they were induced by shrooms and just brought out what was already in my head. (had a wrong trip but because i knew what i was on i just ignored it and went to sleep). Drugs have been used by shamans for ages. To be honest i don't see that as communication with higher beings or whatever but just the visualization of things people are thinking about subconsciously or even guide their hallucinations a certain way.

But yoga and meditation are not outlandish things, I am more talking about paranormal feeling (did experiment with it when young) and stuff like talking to people and animals on the astral plane and stuff like that.

Interesting stuff, but have you ever considered that what you dismiss as hallucinations is just a different view of what we are taught to call "reality " ?

WhiteBuffaloATM · May 19, 2021

unlimited freedom of expression , with consequences.

so propose nonsense and expect ridicule, dismissal & lost reputation.

personal choice..........

people believe all kinds of nonsense; keep it private and dont impose it......

what can be indisputedly proved with scientific evidence is of real value....

people who can be, or purport to be, fooled & outwitted by superstition & childish stories are seldom really held in high regard........

even when making money from it........so called priests etc.

human morality is clearly genetic and therefore pre- dates religion.......

Peter Denis · May 19, 2021

2 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

unlimited freedom of expression , with consequences.

so propose nonsense and expect ridicule, dismissal & lost reputation.

personal choice..........

people believe all kinds of nonsense; keep it private and dont impose it......

what can be indisputedly proved with scientific evidence is of real value....

people who can be, or purport to be, fooled & outwitted by superstition & childish stories are seldom really held in high regard........

even when making money from it........so called priests etc.

human morality is clearly genetic and therefore pre- dates religion.......

A truly amazing piece of ignorance you have written there, clearly you haven't read or absorbed anything from this long-running thread as all your pet-hates have been addressed and dealt with in depth on those pages.

Let me make use of my 'unlimited freedom of expression' to qualify your post as the biggest pile of White Buffalo excrement I have come across in ages... ????

robblok · May 19, 2021

55 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Interesting stuff, but have you ever considered that what you dismiss as hallucinations is just a different view of what we are taught to call "reality " ?

I think you never had a bad trip in your life otherwise you would not have asked that question. There is no way you could confuse it for reality. In my case because i liked staying home in my computer room i hallucinated that the moment i would open the door i would be in out of space. In the blackness of nothing. Was a hint of my mind telling me i spend too much time in that room. Something like that. Not a fun experience in general the mushrooms were fun (and legal) and i never had such a strong response before. Thankfully as a really rational person and someone who knows drugs i knew right away it was not real.

There are people who commit murders when high, or jump from bridges (quite a few tourists did this so they banned certain mushrooms). For me it was just fun a slight altered state of perception and thinking about things. But this was different this was visual too. Thankfully i kept my cool.. took sugar and went to bed to sleep it off. (so i did leave the room just ignored it all)

I havent tried LSD supposedly that is even worse. These were just (thai mushrooms) Or at least that was what they were called in the smart shop. Give me the MDMA high much more fun (not legal though)

https://nextlevelsmart.nl/gb/471-truffles

Sunmaster · May 19, 2021

2 hours ago, robblok said:

Yes its about calming the mind, i tried meditation watched the Netflix documentary about it. Of course i know that the yoga you were talking about was not the western yoga. I got that. When i was talking about positive thinking it was more about showing that the mind can do a lot of things and influence the body to a certain extent. The mind is a powerful thing.

I had my share of hallucinations but they were induced by shrooms and just brought out what was already in my head. (had a wrong trip but because i knew what i was on i just ignored it and went to sleep). Drugs have been used by shamans for ages. To be honest i don't see that as communication with higher beings or whatever but just the visualization of things people are thinking about subconsciously or even guide their hallucinations a certain way.

But yoga and meditation are not outlandish things, I am more talking about paranormal feeling (did experiment with it when young) and stuff like talking to people and animals on the astral plane and stuff like that.

Interesting.

Are you aware that what science validates about meditation and yoga are mainly the physical aspects (lower heart rate, better blood circulation, better digestion etc) and some of the mental aspects (less anxiety, a better outlook on live in general, optimism, a sense of belonging etc)? But meditation and yoga go a lot further than that....into places you would consider very "outlandish".
I would be curious to know where you would draw the line. Is yoga only as good to a point where science can explain it? What about the rest (the MAIN part)?

Does it make sense to you that science should define what is outlandish and what isn't, when it can only go as far as describing the physical and mental aspects of meditation?
The limitation in this case lies clearly with the observer (how much you are willing to accept), rather than with the thing observed (meditation that affects us physically, mentally AND spiritually).
Does it make logical sense to simply ignore the spiritual aspect, when it has already proven to be right regarding the physical and mental aspects?

robblok · May 19, 2021

Just now, Sunmaster said:

Interesting.

Are you aware that what science validates about meditation and yoga are mainly the physical aspects (lower heart rate, better blood circulation, better digestion etc) and some of the mental aspects (less anxiety, a better outlook on live in general, optimism, a sense of belonging etc)? But meditation and yoga go a lot further than that....into places you would consider very "outlandish".
I would be curious to know where you would draw the line. Is yoga only as good to a point where science can explain it? What about the rest (the MAIN part)?

Does it make sense to you that science should define what is outlandish and what isn't, when it can only go as far as describing the physical and mental aspects of meditation?
The limitation in this case lies clearly with the observer (how much you are willing to accept), rather than with the thing observed (meditation that affects us physically, mentally AND spiritually).
Does it make logical sense to simply ignore the spiritual aspect, when it has already proven to be right regarding the physical and mental aspects?

Oh i don't think that people can't go further with meditation as you can do a lot with your mind. I just don't think its reality. What i mean is you can build up things in your mind that you want to see see it as fantasizing ect. Im not doubting the experience. I am doubting the interpretation of it. You can build your own reality in your mind, but that does not make it real.

If i imagine a world and go to that world in my mind its a construct of my mind not a physical place. Like the visions of Shamans when using shrooms or other stuff to induce those visions. I do believe that they see what they see. I just don't believe that what they see is real. Like i don't believe that they are really talking with ancestors but i do believe that they think they are. (hoping that makes sense)

mauGR1 · May 19, 2021

1 hour ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

unlimited freedom of expression , with consequences.

so propose nonsense and expect ridicule, dismissal & lost reputation.

personal choice..........

people believe all kinds of nonsense; keep it private and dont impose it......

what can be indisputedly proved with scientific evidence is of real value....

people who can be, or purport to be, fooled & outwitted by superstition & childish stories are seldom really held in high regard........

even when making money from it........so called priests etc.

human morality is clearly genetic and therefore pre- dates religion.......

Of course I don't agree very much with the way you see reality, but I think yours is a very honest and clear post.

I have no doubt that most people think that way, it's some sort of fashion nowadays.

I also heard from a reliable source, imho of course, that to rely too much on material science, slowly makes one slightly close-minded.

robblok · May 19, 2021

@Sunmaster

Do you believe dreams are real ? I mean they are constructs of the mind too. Why would hallucinations or images when taking certain drugs or mushrooms would be real.

Also same goes for experiences through meditation, if dreams are not real then the mind is capable of showing us stuff that is not real (what i said before i don't disbelieve what people see just think the mind can make up images that are not real)

Sunmaster · May 19, 2021

19 minutes ago, robblok said:

@Sunmaster

Do you believe dreams are real ? I mean they are constructs of the mind too. Why would hallucinations or images when taking certain drugs or mushrooms would be real.

Also same goes for experiences through meditation, if dreams are not real then the mind is capable of showing us stuff that is not real (what i said before i don't disbelieve what people see just think the mind can make up images that are not real)

Funny you should ask me about dreams.
Just last night I had another lucid dream. Due to some strange circumstances, I started suspecting that I was dreaming, but I wasn't quite sure. So I did a reality test by looking at my hands and counting my fingers. In dreams it often happens to have 6 fingers or some other anomaly. Not satisfied with that, I thought I will let myself fall forward and if I don't hit the floor, I must be dreaming. And so it was, I floated mid-air. Now I was 100% sure that I was indeed dreaming. I looked around and was astonished at how real everything looked...even the smallest details. Then I decided to walk straight through a wall and ended up in a bathroom where a pretty girl was having a shower. ???? That was probably too much excitement and I awoke.

Now, I don't consider one reality more real than another. For me they are just different manifestations of the same consciousness. 3D life, dreams, hallucinations, visions, the after-life....all different frequencies on the universal spectrum of consciousness. We are like radio receivers tuning in to one or the other station. Some people like to stay their whole life tuned in on the same radio station. Others like to explore more, through psychedelics perhaps. Others again, like to have more control and practice meditation, which is a great way to change stations and do so at will, without external help.

Like you say, we create our reality. If you tell yourself that supernatural things don't exist, then you will probably not get access to them. You are preventing yourself from experiencing it.
That's how someone who is depressed and someone who is in love can look at the same landscape, yet think and feel very different things. They create the reality around them. Is one more real than the other?

Elad · May 19, 2021

17 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Yet some posters keep talking about religion. Do you not understand the difference between religion and faith?

You may not believe the Earth is 6000 years old, or water turns to wine, or a wafer turns into Jesus, or even winged horses flying to the Moon... but you do all have one thing in common, and that is, you believe that an intelligent designer created the entire universe. The main difference is that you don't believe stories from books that were written thousands of years ago by ordinary people.

WhiteBuffaloATM · May 19, 2021

anyone else been trolled by the pea- brained, charmless jerk “Peter Denis” ?

rudely dismisses my logic-based post as “ignorance”, “hate” & “excretement”, in a pathetic but amusing personal attack, no specific point rebuttal, all points dismissed as “already dealt with”; the normal recourse of charlatans and fools with no case / no debating skills.

comes over either as a religious zealot....or flat earther / conspiracy theorist perhaps......furiously & petulantly reacts to free speech, logic, facts & science......

Peter, if you have truly read the entire 394 pges of subject topic posts you badly need to get a life...

mauGR1 · May 19, 2021

2 hours ago, Elad said:

but you do all have one thing in common, and that is, you believe that an intelligent designer created the entire universe.

..but, but, some believe that in a place which did not exist, some spark happened out of nothing to create millions of stars and countless forms of life... sorry, but I'd rather believe in water being turned into wine ????

mauGR1 · May 19, 2021

1 hour ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

anyone else been trolled by the pea- brained, charmless jerk “Peter Denis” ?

rudely dismisses my logic-based post as “ignorance”, “hate” & “excretement”, in a pathetic but amusing personal attack, no specific point rebuttal, all points dismissed as “already dealt with”; the normal recourse of charlatans and fools with no case / no debating skills.

comes over either as a religious zealot....or flat earther / conspiracy theorist perhaps......furiously & petulantly reacts to free speech, logic, facts & science......

Peter, if you have truly read the entire 394 pges of subject topic posts you badly need to get a life...

Apparently you have been given a taste of your own medicine, what's not to like ?

Btw, Peter criticized your post, but your answer is a blatant personal attack, so who is trolling ?

Peter Denis · May 20, 2021

6 hours ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

anyone else been trolled by the pea- brained, charmless jerk “Peter Denis” ?

rudely dismisses my logic-based post as “ignorance”, “hate” & “excretement”, in a pathetic but amusing personal attack, no specific point rebuttal, all points dismissed as “already dealt with”; the normal recourse of charlatans and fools with no case / no debating skills.

comes over either as a religious zealot....or flat earther / conspiracy theorist perhaps......furiously & petulantly reacts to free speech, logic, facts & science......

Peter, if you have truly read the entire 394 pges of subject topic posts you badly need to get a life...

Hi Milky Bison,

My use of non-scientific 'shock' therapy to expose non-awareness as practiced by a.o. Gurdjieff and the Japanese Zen-masters seems to have worked. ????

Now go and read some of the great posts in this thread challenging your statement that only what can be indisputedly proved with scientific evidence is of real value....

Cheers - Peter

Edited May 20, 2021 by Peter Denis

robblok · May 20, 2021

12 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Funny you should ask me about dreams.
Just last night I had another lucid dream. Due to some strange circumstances, I started suspecting that I was dreaming, but I wasn't quite sure. So I did a reality test by looking at my hands and counting my fingers. In dreams it often happens to have 6 fingers or some other anomaly. Not satisfied with that, I thought I will let myself fall forward and if I don't hit the floor, I must be dreaming. And so it was, I floated mid-air. Now I was 100% sure that I was indeed dreaming. I looked around and was astonished at how real everything looked...even the smallest details. Then I decided to walk straight through a wall and ended up in a bathroom where a pretty girl was having a shower. ???? That was probably too much excitement and I awoke.

Now, I don't consider one reality more real than another. For me they are just different manifestations of the same consciousness. 3D life, dreams, hallucinations, visions, the after-life....all different frequencies on the universal spectrum of consciousness. We are like radio receivers tuning in to one or the other station. Some people like to stay their whole life tuned in on the same radio station. Others like to explore more, through psychedelics perhaps. Others again, like to have more control and practice meditation, which is a great way to change stations and do so at will, without external help.

Like you say, we create our reality. If you tell yourself that supernatural things don't exist, then you will probably not get access to them. You are preventing yourself from experiencing it.
That's how someone who is depressed and someone who is in love can look at the same landscape, yet think and feel very different things. They create the reality around them. Is one more real than the other?

Consciousness is different from a real reality. As i stated before what you experience is in your mind. I have no doubts of that. Now if you say that your linking your consciousness with that of others alive or dead. Then that is where its a bridge to far for me. That is without hard proof and if you can like your consciousness with someone alive that should be easy to prove for dead people there are ways to prove it too. So for stuff like that i require proof.

You are right we create our own reality in our MIND if i want to hallucinate about something you can learn how to control it same goes for lucid dreaming. However that does not mean your consciousness reaches out to others and connects. Just dictates what you see and think is real. So its likely for someone like me who does not believe in contacting the dead or a higher being that i will not have hallucinations like that because people control what they want to see (up to a certain level). However im convinced its all in the mind and not contacting others. If that were the case proof could be made especially if your in control of your dreams.

Lucid dreams can be quite fun and feel real, i know i had more then a few (melatonin helps). But i will never think that lucid dreams are anything more then something controlled in my mind by my mind. I don't believe in the external link. If there is an external link it can be verified with tests.

For instance the dog friend who talked about contacting the dog on the astral plane. If that person really did it then certain proof could be found. But i have found that people who do such things for others same like astrology and other floaty things always stay really really vague making sure things can be explained in multiple ways so have higher scoring rate.

Also some people are just really good at reading others and letting them know what they want to hear.

robblok · May 20, 2021

1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

Hi Milky Bison,

My use of non-scientific 'shock' therapy to expose non-awareness as practiced by a.o. Gurdjieff and the Japanese Zen-masters seems to have worked. ????

Now go and read some of the great posts in this thread challenging your statement that only what can be indisputedly proved with scientific evidence is of real value....

Cheers - Peter

Peter, i still stay the same. Only things that can be verified count. Does not mean its not in your mind only means i doubt contact with others. Contact with others is something that you can verify in ways yet nobody seems to have done it sufficiently to be proven correct. So i stand with that.

covidiot · May 20, 2021

7 minutes ago, robblok said:

Only things that can be verified count.

so ghosts don't exist because stephen hawking can't prove it?

i stayed in a haunted house once, dude.

no joke.

this thread is way too long to keep up with ...

robblok · May 20, 2021

10 minutes ago, covidiot said:

so ghosts don't exist because stephen hawking can't prove it?

i stayed in a haunted house once, dude.

no joke.

this thread is way too long to keep up with ...

If you stayed there you could have proven it camera's and stuff. So sorry if there is something you can prove it.

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