Do you believe in God and why

[mauGR1]

8 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

I wrote 'probably', which means I'm not certain. ????

 

"Yes, I know what placebo is, i consider any placebo effect case to be a miracle."

 

But not as great a miracle as a modern drug which has proven to be, during its development, more effective than a placebo. Right?

 

"Actually i consider life itself a miracle."

 

I would agree, depending on your definition of the word 'miracle'. If you mean, 'A wonderful, strange or marvelous thing', which is one definition of miracle, then I agree.

 

However, if you define miracle as 'An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin', then I would disagree. The theory of evolution is the best explanation for life, and as we continue with the genetic coding of various forms of life, and discover that we share a certain percentage of our genes with every other creature, and even with plants, then the theory of Evolution is strengthened. The following link provides a simple summary of the situation.

 

"Research shows that 99.9 percent of the genetic information in DNA is common to all human beings. The remaining 0.01 percent is responsible for differences in hair, eye and skin color, height and propensity to certain diseases. Scientists believe that all life evolved from a common ancestor, which means that humans also share DNA sequencing with all other living organisms. Humans share DNA with creatures closer in the evolutionary line and with common ancestors to a greater extent than with those further removed. Top on the list are the great apes, while lesser apes, monkeys and prosimians are a little further removed. Other mammals are further still, followed by insects, plants and more rudimentary life forms."
 

https://sciencing.com/what-is-the-haploid-diploid-cell-number-for-a-monkey-12732203.html
 

While is true that life expectancy has increased, I'm not impressed by the fact that people look more and more miserable.. especially in the last months.

Oh, but those who can afford the best drugs can prolong their lives and be miserable for a little longer. 

In general terms, it doesn't impress me a lot. 

As for the evolution theory, it's still evolving, and surely something in it makes sense.

Personally,  i think that a science which bases its "truths" on false premises is flawed from the beginning...

.. thinking that consciousness, faith, compassion, imagination etc. originated from a bang coming from nowhere in a place which didn't exist, is at least as ludicrous as believing in Santa Claus. 

 

So, while the search for the truth (real science) is something to aspire to,  the distortion of some truth for the gain of a few, is abominable.

Well,  whatever makes you happy..????

 

 

...

 

[Walker88]

44 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

While is true that life expectancy has increased, I'm not impressed by the fact that people look more and more miserable.. especially in the last months.

Oh, but those who can afford the best drugs can prolong their lives and be miserable for a little longer. 

In general terms, it doesn't impress me a lot. 

As for the evolution theory, it's still evolving, and surely something in it makes sense.

Personally,  i think that a science which bases its "truths" on false premises is flawed from the beginning...

.. thinking that consciousness, faith, compassion, imagination etc. originated from a bang coming from nowhere in a place which didn't exist, is at least as ludicrous as believing in Santa Claus. 

 

So, while the search for the truth (real science) is something to aspire to,  the distortion of some truth for the gain of a few, is abominable.

Well,  whatever makes you happy..????

 

 

...

 

And the Earth MUST be flat; otherwise we'd all fall off. 

 

Can't see any force that would keep me tethered to the dirt under my feet, while doing the exact same thing to a guy on the opposite side of the planet. I mean, our feet would be facing each other, sole to sole. Makes no sense, so it cannot exist.........unless.......it's a miracle created by my pure-loving Skydaddy so as to allow both me and the guy on the opposite side of the planet to get on with our duty of offering Skydaddy endless thanks and praise.

 

Actually, physicists have an answer now to the old saw about 'how can something form from nothing?' It's difficult to understand, just as gravity (an acceleration of spacetime) was difficult to understand for dyed-in-the-wool Flat Earthers. Even consciousness is now becoming understood for what it actually is......a vast collection of sensory stimulations that are instantly backward looking in time, all carried on a brain architecture of neurons and mini-fibules that can carry impulses generated by charges on large molecules of neurotransmitters.

 

Skydaddies are kind of like monarchs and other royalty in modern Parliamentary Democracies. Bit by bit their jobs and duties are being lost to elected officials, so that they are becoming mere vestiges of bygone era, anachronisms with no use nor value other than as silly symbols or caricatures in the gossip pages of tabloids.

[mauGR1]

8 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

And the Earth MUST be flat; otherwise we'd all fall off. 

 

Can't see any force that would keep me tethered to the dirt under my feet, while doing the exact same thing to a guy on the opposite side of the planet. I mean, our feet would be facing each other, sole to sole. Makes no sense, so it cannot exist.........unless.......it's a miracle created by my pure-loving Skydaddy so as to allow both me and the guy on the opposite side of the planet to get on with our duty of offering Skydaddy endless thanks and praise.

 

Actually, physicists have an answer now to the old saw about 'how can something form from nothing?' It's difficult to understand, just as gravity (an acceleration of spacetime) was difficult to understand for dyed-in-the-wool Flat Earthers. Even consciousness is now becoming understood for what it actually is......a vast collection of sensory stimulations that are instantly backward looking in time, all carried on a brain architecture of neurons and mini-fibules that can carry impulses generated by charges on large molecules of neurotransmitters.

 

Skydaddies are kind of like monarchs and other royalty in modern Parliamentary Democracies. Bit by bit their jobs and duties are being lost to elected officials, so that they are becoming mere vestiges of bygone era, anachronisms with no use nor value other than as silly symbols or caricatures in the gossip pages of tabloids.

 

Yes, i find difficult to understand what you are on about.

... but I guess you are confusing science with materialistic propaganda, sorry,  but I'm not going that way.

Feel free to think that parroting pseudoscience makes you clever, bye.

[Walker88]

As Bokonon asks us to sing along in one of his Calypsos

 

Tiger got to hunt

Bird got to fly

Man got to sit and wonder, why, why, why

Tiger got to sleep

Bird got to land

Man got to tell himself he understand

 

 

Oh, and because a negative cannot be disproven, Bokononism is as real and legitimate as any faith.

 

It’s certainly as legit as a Universe created by a deity---One, incidentally, not two or ten or a hundred million or a team, or competing teams of deities who take turns creating Universes to see which team can make a better one----for reasons that seem all too human:  a need to be praised for its greatness. (Note: while most major superstitions are mono-Skydaddy-ish, Hinduism has at least 3 million deities....and that gives us endless festivals because, on average, 10,000 of them have a birthday on any given day.)

 

From time immemorial to 13.8 billion years ago, this deity apparently did nothing. Then for reasons unexplained by any of its followers (Boredom? Need to be praised?), it decided to create a Universe of a few trillion galaxies, each with trillions of stars, most with orbiting planets…..and in one pedestrian galaxy, in one obscure corner, around one very average star, on one planet, ‘created’ a species ostensibly in its image, whose sole functions are to follow a set of rules some guy claims to have been handed on top of a mountain when nobody else was looking, and praise the entity that dictated those rules.

 

Along the way---in a Universe of ever exploding stars, and on a planet rife with natural disasters and plagues and wanton purposeful destruction---said deity knocks up an Earthgirl, plays deadbeat dad, then sits back and watches as the now-adult kid gets nailed to a cross---all so other members of the species on this obscure planet in some meaningless place in a massive Universe, who follow the rules the guy who will one day be played by Charlton Heston claims were handed him on a mountaintop, can get into some country club in the sky that the deity created---so that it can be praised incessantly until time itself ends. There seems to be precious little difference between these praise-needing deities and North Korean dictators.

 

All of that silliness somehow seems to be deduced from the mere fact that the Universe exists and some folks cannot explain how it could materialize from ‘nothing’, while their deity had absolutely no problem performing that magic act of materializing from nothing by claiming it always was and always will be.

 

Oh, and because the Universe does exist, those rules are not to be violated lest one risk the wrath of this vessel of Pure Love ©, the one whose Master Plan involves such loving features as tsunamis and earthquakes, childhood cancer and other ‘mysterious ways’ of demonstrating ‘greater love no man has’. Really, one might think an entity that had all the time in the world----from time immemorial until 13.8 billion years ago---could have come up with a better Master Plan. 

 

Not having the need to believe in anything other than the individual randomness of my existence, it always puzzles me how so many---some of whom are otherwise intelligent---need to grasp on to such myths and superstitions, manufactured by people who didn’t even know the Earth was round. That’s like seeking out a doctor skilled in bloodletting rather than a modern hospital with fancy machines like MRIs and a pharmacy stock full of life-saving potions. “You want the antibiotics or the leeches, Sir?” “ I’ll go old school. Give me the leeches. Those guys knew.”

 

So obvious were all of these deities created in man’s own image, that it is a constant amazement that people refuse to see that patently obvious reality. I also wonder why none of the “Try MY Brand of Faith” folks who claimed to have their deity on their LINE contact list never said anything that wasn’t already known. Not a thing came from anyone from Moses to Jesus to Mohd to John Smith to L Ron Hubbard that wasn’t known. Not a single one ever noted things like….there’s a continent out there where part of it will someday be called the US of A, or that Tom Brady would win at least 7 Superbowls. Certainly their deity could have built itself a ton more credibility by letting on a secret or two. Instead, just rehashing of the usual social constructs of “be nice”, and then maybe some rules that make absolutely no sense but must be followed by true believers (don’t be a practicing gay, women have to cover their faces, no pig eating, etc.)

 

So since nobody, self-proclaimed prophet in touch with a deity or otherwise, ever revealed any information not yet known, that leaves the fallback term “faith” as the only thing between common sense reality and superstition.

 

As for such spurious arguments as “Well, why not accept Pascal’s Wager?”, Pascal must have forgotten that there are many more belief systems than Christianity, so a proper wager would have to be a choice among five or six major faiths and dozens of smaller ones. Odds are just as good for an agnostic or atheist as one who latches on to Jesus, but finds out John Smith nailed the “One Truth”. Uh oh! Bad choice, you Christians.

 

The really big joke is that since there can be at most only one “Truth”, all non,-truth faiths were created either by a liar or a maniac. There is no other possibility. Since at least 4 faiths have a billion or more followers, that means billions are living a life of delusion, and as science keeps revealing, likely all four of those major faiths. Each of us gets one shot at existence, yet billions choose to be deluded for the duration.

 

Okay. Looking back on what I wrote, I submit Bokononism makes a heck of a lot more sense, even though like the crypto Dogecoin, it was made up as a joke. As Dogecoin shows us, even jokes can gain a rabid following.

 

 

 

 

[Walker88]

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

 

Yes, i find difficult to understand what you are on about.

... but I guess you are confusing science with materialistic propaganda, sorry,  but I'm not going that way.

Feel free to think that parroting pseudoscience makes you clever, bye.

What you are incapable of understanding, or what interferes with a belief system based on myth and superstition manufactured by Bronze Age guys, is termed 'pseudoscience'.

 

Okay. Up to you.

[mauGR1]

6 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

What you are incapable of understanding, or what interferes with a belief system based on myth and superstition manufactured by Bronze Age guys, is termed 'pseudoscience'.

 

Okay. Up to you.

Look, I'm interested in what you have to say, but i never mentioned flat earth. 

If you start your argument calling me a flat-earthist, using derogatory words like "skydaddy", and marking my post with a confused emoji...

You are just showing your intellectual dishonesty. 

Well, sorry, i avoid discussions with the dishonest in real life, and i do the same here.

[canthai55]

SkyDaddy is derogatory - but God is not ?

They are words - nothing else.

Used to convey a concept

Think 'Stick and Stones' ...

 

[mauGR1]

19 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

SkyDaddy is derogatory - but God is not ?

They are words - nothing else.

Used to convey a concept

Think 'Stick and Stones' ...

 

Ok, skydaddy, is not really bad, it's even funny, but i don't like the attitude,  and I made it very clear.

I'm really interested to know what people think, and it's interesting to see different points of view.

Yet, i have better things to do than hanging around with the intellectually dishonest .

If i reply to some posts which are not worth of a reply, it's just because I'd like this thread to continue. 

[canthai55]

So ...

 

"I'm really interested to know what people think, and it's interesting to see different points of view."

"but i don't like the attitude,  and I made it very clear. "

 

People need to post in a way that meets your approval ...

 

Playing God are we ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Walker88]

32 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Ok, skydaddy, is not really bad, it's even funny, but i don't like the attitude,  and I made it very clear.

I'm really interested to know what people think, and it's interesting to see different points of view.

Yet, i have better things to do than hanging around with the intellectually dishonest .

If i reply to some posts which are not worth of a reply, it's just because I'd like this thread to continue. 

Nobody is going to convince anyone else of anything. Nor is anyone ever going to 'know' who was right, because dead is dead, and we're all heading that way. We'll go full circle and become part of another star similar to the one that once had our end-of-life atoms as part of it. (Since the body is always replacing structures and cells, save perhaps for some neurons, the atoms we contain at death are quite different from the ones we contained at birth. It's possible an atom or two that is 'me' was once part of Shakespeare. All that is kind of cool and much more interesting than virgin births.) Even as science continues to reveal the reality of existence, many choose to hold onto Bronze Age myth, because the idea that existence on an individual level has no actual meaning save for what each of us makes of it, is too unsettling for many. So be it.

 

A child with an imaginary friend either needs to grow out of it or get counseling. An adult with an imaginary friend is 'spiritual'. An adult with an imaginary friend who isn't on the list of accepted Imaginary Friends is considered psychotic or schizophrenic. That's kind of funny.

 

If I fight a paternity suit by claiming some deity made my woman pregnant, I would get hammered in a court of law. If some Bronze Age guy says that, or if an adulterous woman uses that as an excuse to her husband or boyfriend, great cathedrals are built celebrating those lies or delusions. Mary is lucky neither Nazareth nor Bethlehem had DNA testing. That, too, is kind of funny.

 

If I have a problem with faith, it is that it so easily breeds ignorance that causes harm, and harm to others than the 'believer'. Whether the harm comes in the form of a fanatical terrorist or one who scorns masks and vaccines during a pandemic because their opportunist charlatan preacher pretends he got a message from some deity, it is still harm to innocents. Also, 'faith' leads to people discounting science, and gives the upper hand to societies who move science forward rather than continue to embrace silly superstition. That can be economically damaging.

 

This thread is for entertainment purposes only.....kind of like a Sunday Sermon....entertainment purposes only.

 

Are you not entertained! (Gladiator)

 

To paraphrase my long post, some of us choose modern medicine, some still prefer leeches.

[mauGR1]

6 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

If I have a problem with faith, it is that it so easily breeds ignorance that causes harm, and harm to others

This is worth discussing. 

Actually i completely agree, and I think you are putting too much faith in what you call science. 

What I call science is slightly different, unless you wish to read the whole thread, I'll have to explain to you another day.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/19/2021 at 5:51 PM, Sunmaster said:

Dear friends (atheists, believers and everything in between)

I know there's no need to announce it and it is really a bit cringeworthy tbh, but this will be my last post on this thread. Leaving without a goodbye would not be right either, especially after 2+ years contributing to this thread.

It was a fun rollercoaster. ???? I always tried to reply politely to posters who gave me the same level of respect. Those who were out seeking only confrontation I usually ignored, but at times couldn't help myself dishing out in equal manner. lol I'm especially glad that I could eventually find an amicable level of conversation with my nemesis. 55 (you know who you are)

This thread was a great way of sharpening my intellectual tools and more importantly, steered me back to the regular practice of meditation. Now, more then ever, I'm convinced that no amount of intellectual debating can equal direct experience. Now it's time to focus on other things in life.

That being said, I hope you all find what you are seeking and that it will make you more complete. It doesn't matter whether you believe or not, one day we will all face our last breath and what will matter at that point is only how much we were able to love and be loved. 

So long, and thanks for all the fish. ???? 

Live long and prosper. ????

I hope you check back to see this, but you and mauGR1 were the only reason I kept contributing on it.

You gave me much to think about and while I'm not of a mind to get into meditation etc, your posts did help clarify many things for myself.

 

We sure did help create what has to be one of the longest, if not the longest thread in TVF history.

I doubt any were converted, and it constantly amused me to see the same arguments being used against the creator, over and over and over. Perhaps some thought that if they said the same things enough times they'd prove something.

 

Fare well, wherever the spirit leads you.

 

Given the direction the thread has gone with pop music references and other such like nonsense, I may be joining you, but I'll see how it goes. Since world news vanished, it had to be the most interesting thread left to contribute on.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, Walker88 said:

A child with an imaginary friend either needs to grow out of it or get counseling. An adult with an imaginary friend is 'spiritual'. An adult with an imaginary friend who isn't on the list of accepted Imaginary Friends is considered psychotic or schizophrenic. That's kind of funny.

You make an understandable error by imagining that God is a sort of "friend" of believers. I say understandable, because as an obvious unbeliever, you obviously don't know what it's like to believe, and can only imagine what it's like.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, Walker88 said:

If I have a problem with faith, it is that it so easily breeds ignorance that causes harm, and harm to others than the 'believer'.

You appear to be confusing faith with religion. Nobody with faith, IMO, would willingly cause harm to innocents.

 

 

I just read another post in which you refer to 4 faiths, when you should be referring to 4 religions. Unfortunately, the quote function doesn't work on that post.

[ivor bigun]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You appear to be confusing faith with religion. Nobody with faith, IMO, would willingly cause harm to innocents.

 

 

I just read another post in which you refer to 4 faiths, when you should be referring to 4 religions. Unfortunately, the quote function doesn't work on that post.

So if thats the case the Taliban and all those followers of old Mo have no faith ,they just like to kill ? 

like whats going on in Afghanistan at the moment 

[mikebike]

On 8/18/2021 at 5:52 PM, Sunmaster said:

Oh, by the way, I'm still waiting for you to correct me on what I wrote about consciousness research, since you pointed out that I had no clue. 
Please be precise in your explanation. Thank you

Totally lost interest after reading more of your posts. Life is too short.

[mikebike]

On 8/18/2021 at 6:04 PM, Sunmaster said:

So, no explanation then?
Not surprised...

Do you even realize the second comment was not me?????

[mikebike]

On 8/18/2021 at 6:39 PM, mauGR1 said:

I know that you are not for real, but i have to ask you, are you for real ?

Is that supposed to mean something or just more word salad? 

[mauGR1]

51 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Is that supposed to mean something or just more word salad? 

555 it's ok, don't take it seriously ????

[TooBigToFit]

There was a time when music and dance was condemned by some Christian and Muslim religious folks. Take the music away and it can be pretty boring for some.

 

This dance song sounds a bit like the Dead or Alive song "You spin me round"

 

 

[Sparktrader]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You appear to be confusing faith with religion. Nobody with faith, IMO, would willingly cause harm to innocents.

 

 

I just read another post in which you refer to 4 faiths, when you should be referring to 4 religions. Unfortunately, the quote function doesn't work on that post.

Muslim extremists dont have faith? Of course they do.

[Sparktrader]

4 hours ago, mikebike said:

Totally lost interest after reading more of your posts. Life is too short.

He is leaving. Given up.

[mauGR1]

12 hours ago, Sparktrader said:

Muslim extremists dont have faith? Of course they do.

I don't really like fanatics too.

But, do you really think that, if it was possible to erase religion propaganda from the haters' mind, fanaticism and extremism will cease to exist ?

Or even more, would evil disappear from this planet if any religious belief could be erased ?

[Fat is a type of crazy]

56 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I don't really like fanatics too.

But, do you really think that, if it was possible to erase religion propaganda from the haters' mind, fanaticism and extremism will cease to exist ?

Or even more, would evil disappear from this planet if any religious belief could be erased ?

You would still have the odd charismatic leader pushing people astray but it would be a lot less. It is shocking sometimes just how much people can be influenced by stuff on the internet and if the tool of extreme religion was gone it would make  a huge difference. Religion has the advantage of uniting people and controlling them as a force whereas a lot of conspiracy lunacy is disjointed and often involves some sad guy separate in his little world.  

[VincentRJ]

On 8/20/2021 at 9:47 AM, mauGR1 said:

 As for the evolution theory, it's still evolving, and surely something in it makes sense.

Personally,  i think that a science which bases its "truths" on false premises is flawed from the beginning...

 

All science is evolving. That's the nature of scientific enquiry. Science is never 'truly' settled. There's always something that needs modifying to some degree, and sometimes a theory which has been generally accepted for decades or even centuries is completely overturned as new evidence come to light, often through new technology.

 

However, before that new evidence can change an accepted theory, it has to meet the fundamental requirements of the 'methodology of science', which involves repeated, controlled experiments that produce consistent results.
The scientific process begins with a 'hypothesis', which is an imaginative idea used to explain an observed phenomenon or phenomena, followed by controlled experiments to test the validity of the hypothesis.

 

Sometimes the issue is so complicated with so many uncontrollable variables that it's impossible to validate a particular hypothesis using the 'methodology of science'.
An interesting example is the hypothesis that all matter consists of invisibly small particles called atoms. As far as we know from history, this hypothesis was first proposed by Democritus in Greece, and Acharya Kannada in India, around the same time, about 2,500 years ago, but of course, during those times there was no possibility of confirming the hypothesis. The hypothesis hung around for about 2,000 years before the existence of the atom began to be verified. 

 

Without a process of sound verification, or the application of the 'methodology of modern science', hypotheses can be endlessly discussed, with all sorts of divergent, opposing views. Even Democritus' hypothesis about the atom was rejected by Aristotle. The early Greek philosophers tried to understand the nature of the world through reason and logic, but not through experiment and observation. 

 

"Personally,  i think that a science which bases its "truths" on false premises is flawed from the beginning..."

 

At least we agree on that point. The purpose of the 'methodology of science' is to avoid, as best we can, basing so-called truths on false premises. When the methodology of repeated testing under controlled conditions, changing one variable at a time, cannot be conducted because of the complexity and/or chaotic nature of the situation, or because of the limitations of our current instruments, the honest scientist will admit the uncertainty.

 

Unfortunately, whilst the fundamental principles of scientific enquiry require that the investigating scientist be unbiased, honest and objective, many scientists are also 'flawed' human beings with personal interests driven by a desire for wealth, fame, acceptance by their immediate community, promotion in their job, and so on.

 

".. thinking that consciousness, faith, compassion, imagination etc. originated from a bang coming from nowhere in a place which didn't exist, is at least as ludicrous as believing in Santa Claus. "

 

Absolutely! I agree once again. Only those who have little understanding of science, tend to think that. The 'Big Bang' is not a scientific word, but a common-word analogy. A 'singularity' is not 'nothing'. It's a very tiny point, in terms of volume, but has infinite mass.

 

The problem here is that we live within a very narrow spectrum of conditions, so our analogies and personal understanding are usually based upon those very narrow experiences within our environment.

 

For example, consider the temperature range that scientists have observed. Life on Earth exists within a very narrow range of temperatures. Absolute zero is -273.15 degrees Centigrade, which is zero degrees Kelvin. Each degree of Kelvin is equal to one degree on the Centigrade scale, except Kelvin starts at 'absolute' zero, whereas zero on the Centigrade scale is the freezing point of water.

 

The lowest natural temperature ever directly recorded at ground level on Earth is −89.2 °C, which is a long way from -273 C. The highest natural temperature ever recorded on Earth is around 57 degrees C. However, the hottest temperature ever measured with our sophisticated instrument, such as the Large Hadron Collider in CERN, is about 5.5 trillion degrees C.

 

How does 5.5 trillion degrees compare with our personal experiences? Even molten metals that are heated to produce a gas, are only a few thousand degrees.
A similar situation applies to our personal experience of the weight or mass of objects. A block of polystyrene foam is extremely light compared with a block of lead occupying the same space. But that difference in mass is very narrow compared with the differences that science has observed in the universe. Consider the mass of a Black Hole.

 

However, I must emphasize the point that, because science is an ongoing process, there is sometimes no clear or precise distinction between Hypothesis and Theory. There are often just degrees of certainty that something is correct, ranging from 'very high' to 'very low'. We can't be certain that the Big Bang hypothesis is correct. It's just the best (or at least one of the best) scientific explanations we currently have.

 

Hope I have clarified everything for you, so no need to meditate 12 hours a day for ten years. ????
 

[mauGR1]

11 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

You would still have the odd charismatic leader pushing people astray but it would be a lot less. It is shocking sometimes just how much people can be influenced by stuff on the internet and if the tool of extreme religion was gone it would make  a huge difference. Religion has the advantage of uniting people and controlling them as a force whereas a lot of conspiracy lunacy is disjointed and often involves some sad guy separate in his little world.  

Fair analysis, but with religion disappearing from the mind of ordinary folks, it's already happening in western countries, will there be some "power-vacuum" which needs to be filled ?

And, taking for granted that unifying people is good for everyone, or at least for the majority, what will be the main unifying factor ?

Surely we're going to see some interesting changes in the society in the next few years. 

 

 

[mauGR1]

7 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

However, I must emphasize the point that, because science is an ongoing process, there is sometimes no clear or precise distinction between Hypothesis and Theory. There are often just degrees of certainty that something is correct, ranging from 'very high' to 'very low'. We can't be certain the the Big Bang hypothesis is correct. It's just the best (or at least one of the best) scientific explanations we currently have.

 

Hope I have clarified everything for you, so no need to meditate 12 hours a day for ten years. ????

Somehow today i understand very well what you are saying, but, even more, i have to praise your intellectual honesty. 

 

..Especially when you say that the distinction between hypothesis and theory may be blurred. 

Without going too much in detail, can we also agree that a hypothesis may be sold as a theory to the public, or even worse, as a fact ?

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

Somehow today i understand very well what you are saying, but, even more, i have to praise your intellectual honesty. 

 

..Especially when you say that the distinction between hypothesis and theory may be blurred. 

Without going too much in detail, can we also agree that a hypothesis may be sold as a theory to the public, or even worse, as a fact ?

Absolutely! This is a very common political practice. It's a major problem for humanity in general. Economics and 'power over others', tend to rule, and probably always have throughout human history.

 

Scientific investigation has moved towards an economic industry, with large groups of scientists engaging in work as a necessary job to support themselves and their family. The great scientists of the past, such as Galileo, Charles Darwin, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, were self-funded and were motivated by curiosity.

 

However, nowadays, most research organizations have to be funded by government grants or some type of 'foundation' which has an economic interest in the outcome of the research. This introduces a bias.
 

[mauGR1]

19 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Absolutely! This is a very common political practice. It's a major problem for humanity in general. Economics and 'power over others', tend to rule, and probably always have throughout human history.

 

Scientific investigation has moved towards an economic industry, with large groups of scientists engaging in work as a necessary job to support themselves and their family. The great scientists of the past, such as Galileo, Charles Darwin, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, were self-funded and were motivated by curiosity.

 

However, nowadays, most research organizations have to be funded by government grants or some type of 'foundation' which has an economic interest in the outcome of the research. This introduces a bias.
 

Glad we're finally on the same page, so to speak. 

So it's not really nonsensical to say that science, like religion in the past, is becoming a sort of cult, a way to manipulate the masses.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

Fair analysis, but with religion disappearing from the mind of ordinary folks, it's already happening in western countries, will there be some "power-vacuum" which needs to be filled ?

And, taking for granted that unifying people is good for everyone, or at least for the majority, what will be the main unifying factor ?

Surely we're going to see some interesting changes in the society in the next few years. 

 

 

Religion can often be a good thing for a sense of community and many do help people in practical terms. It also adds to the 'us' and 'them' mentality. So what if god and religion is gone. 

It would be nice to think it could be love to bring us together but self interest might be enough. As Morrissey said 'If it's not love then it's the bomb that will keep us together'.

As we become aware that there is not likely to be a god, and if there is, they are not protecting us,  the importance of self control becomes necessary. This is since now we are able to destroy ourselves with bombs, or climate change, or a slow disintegration of society or whatever.  

 

Human nature seems to be to protect ourselves and our tribe. It could be that we are not so bad and that, without a god, it can still feel good to help our tribe and others even if it doesn't lead to heaven. 

 

It might help if our leaders can send the message, and have policies that back it up,  that self interest can be consistent with the interest of society, and that our tribe is now bigger than just your family, political party or religion whether we like it or not.

The economic and social policies could act as a carrot and stick to ideally lead to the conclusion that the world is, if not totally fair, a place where if you work hard you can give you and your tribe a decent and free life, and can assist those who can't fend for themselves.

The outcome being  that you can benefit yourself and that this is consistent with not destroying what others have created.

It might sound a bit hopeful but in my opinion an imperfect form of the above exists in many countries like Australia and New Zealand.