Do you believe in God and why

[mauGR1]

2 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

Including attachment to the notion of proving/disproving the existence of God

I've got no suffering from that, and i'd guess it's the same to you ????

[Sunmaster]

37 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

I'd have thought the early monks and the Stylites may well combine the two

I had to look this one up. Yes, I agree. ???? Something similar happened in the 20's called flagpole sitting. 555

 

In any case, intellectual knowledge without practice is next to worthless when it comes to spiritual knowledge. 
Like it has been mentioned before: The Tao that you can describe is not the real Tao.

[CMNightRider]

"What does the Bible say about knowledge?"

 

"We know from Scripture that knowledge is a gift from God. Proverbs 2:6 tells us that the Lord gives wisdom that comes from His own mouth—the Word of God—and that the wisdom of God results in knowledge and understanding. James adds that those who lack wisdom have only to ask for it and God will give it abundantly and generously. God’s desire is for all to know Him, appreciate Him, and have a relationship with Him; therefore, He grants to all who truly seek Him the wisdom that leads to knowledge. Further, because knowledge is God’s to give, those who reverence Him will receive it. “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge” (Proverbs 1:7). The word fear here is not dread or terror but a reverence for God, respect for His law, His will, His rule in our lives, and the fear of offending Him, which will lead us to obey, worship and praise Him.

God gives the gift of knowledge out of His infinite store of knowledge. Psalm 19:2 tells us that God’s creation reveals the Creator’s knowledge: “Night after night [the skies] display knowledge.” The vastness of God’s knowledge and creative power are on display continually and are clearly seen in what He has created, as Paul reminds us in Romans 1:19-20. Not only is God’s knowledge infinite, but it is absolute: “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! / How unsearchable his judgments, / and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33). When God came to earth in the Person of Jesus Christ, He became the embodiment of knowledge: “. . . Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” (Colossians 2:2-3).

Human knowledge, apart from God, is flawed. The Bible also refers to it as worthless because it isn’t tempered by love (1 Corinthians 13:2). The knowledge man possesses tends to make one proud. “Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up” (1 Corinthians 8:1). Therefore, the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake, without seeking God, is foolishness. “Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom . . . but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind. For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief” (Ecclesiastes 1:17-18). Worldly knowledge is a false knowledge which is opposed to the truth, and Paul urges us to “Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith” (1 Timothy 6:20-21). Human knowledge is opposed to God’s knowledge and therefore is no knowledge at all; rather, it is foolishness."

[sirineou]

4 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

James adds that those who lack wisdom have only to ask for it and God will give it abundantly and generously.

And here I was wasting all this time and money going to school.

Live and learn, live.... and learn.

[sirineou]

16 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

In fact, Lord Buddha was against the fanaticism of certain religious types; the problem is that, religion or not, we have to deal anyway, in this world, with a certain amount of crazy individuals.

 

Bad people do bad things and good people do good things, It takes religion to make good people do bad things.

[cobra]

15 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Honestly, that's the first time i hear this story, but although one may superficially agree with the moral of the story, i think it's most important to understand the source of the suffering.

According to Lord Buddha, pls correct me if i'm wrong, the most powerful source of suffering is attachment, and i find myself in full agreement.

I understood it was more specifically "Personal Desire",

Edited September 14, 2019 by cobra

[giddyup]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

I would much rather trust a guy who's been meditating his whole life in a cave, than a guy who knows the bible by heart. Even better, I rather trust my own experience through meditation and the practice of awareness. 
Have you got anything else to show for than this endless stream of bible citations? Anything that comes from you directly?

You're right, anybody can copy and paste. Just another brainwashed drone.

[sirineou]

27 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

James adds that those who lack wisdom have only to ask for it and God will give it abundantly and generously.

I wonder what is preventing so many religious  types from asking ?

[mauGR1]

7 minutes ago, cobra said:

I understood it was more specifically "Personal Desire",

No problem with semantics, your understanding is correct.

[mauGR1]

23 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Bad people do bad things and good people do good things, It takes religion to make good people do bad things.

That is a very simplistic view, i don't think there are many people completely good or completely bad, and then interpretation of good and bad can differ greatly from people to people.

But i have no problem accepting your point of view, everything can teach something to one who has no prejudice.

[sirineou]

4 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

That is a very simplistic view, i don't think there are many people completely good or completely bad, and then interpretation of good and bad can differ greatly from people to people.

But i have no problem accepting your point of view, everything can teach something to one who has no prejudice.

who said anything about people being completely good ar completely bad.

But I don't think anyone would argue that there are good people and that there are bad people. 

and that bad people do bad things , by definition that's why they are bad . or that good people do good things , by definition that's why they are good. 

 

 The argument I made is always made on religious debates, have heard Christopher Hitchens  make it several times  and I am always amazed that no one ever makes the obvious comeback, that  it also takes religion to get bad people do some good things.  You know , fear of god and all. 

 

[CMNightRider]

On 9/11/2019 at 6:43 PM, Sunmaster said:

The third post about the "Positive God-interpretation" is dedicated to literature.

This is a subjective list and doesn't want to be a "Top 10 Spiritual Best Sellers". Certain books find their way to us just at the right time and anchor themselves in our hearts. Sometimes they seed an idea that blossoms up years later. Some of them need to be read several times and each time we discover something new. Some books teach us more than 1000 sermons. Some books answer questions, others raise many more.

 

These books are the closest to my heart.

 

This book is truly amazing. The love Yogananda feels for God can be felt in every sentence and makes this book an all time classic when it comes to spiritual literature. My number 1.

 

I really like this book. It's a novel set in the future, were a group of people play a game wherein one must be able to build a philosophy that includes every human discipline. A first step to an integral philosophy.

An old book, but with timeless pearls of wisdom.

 

All books by Ken Wilber. A modern day philosopher and transpersonal psychologist. The developer of the Integral Theory: Integral theory is Ken Wilber's attempt to place a wide diversity of theories and thinkers into one single framework. It is portrayed as a "theory of everything", trying "to draw together an already existing number of separate paradigms into an interrelated network of approaches that are mutually enriching.
Not an easy read, but very very interesting.

 

Don Edward Beck is a teacher, geopolitical advisor, and theorist focusing on applications of large scale psychology, including social psychology, evolutionary psychology, organizational psychology and their effect on human sociocultural systems. 

 

 A leading spiritual and philosophical thinker. A captivating read.

 

Simple and to the point.

 

Finally, here is something I just found while browsing for pictures. It's about a scientist who found answers in spiritual practice. A scientist who believes in spiritual stuff?!? Heresy!!! 555
https://upliftconnect.com/a-scientists-spiritual-awakening/

The Bible is the best-selling book in history, with total sales exceeding 5 billion copies.  Over 100 million copies of the Bible are sold each year, and takes place across three continents: Asia, Africa, and Europe.

[mauGR1]

25 minutes ago, sirineou said:

who said anything about people being completely good ar completely bad.

But I don't think anyone would argue that there are good people and that there are bad people. 

and that bad people do bad things , by definition that's why they are bad . or that good people do good things , by definition that's why they are good. 

 

 The argument I made is always made on religious debates, have heard Christopher Hitchens  make it several times  and I am always amazed that no one ever makes the obvious comeback, that  it also takes religion to get bad people do some good things.  You know , fear of god and all. 

 

I can see where you are going, so i will say it again, love for money or jealousy can get "good" people to do bad things too. Not only religion.

Apparently most killings are related to money and sex, and don't tell me that all those mass-shootings in your otherwise beautiful country are related with religion.

It seems fashion these days to blame religion for everything, do you blame religion also when you are ill, or when the weather is cold and wet ?

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, mauGR1 said:

I can see where you are going, so i will say it again, love for money or jealousy can get "good" people to do bad things too. Not only religion.

Apparently most killings are related to money and sex, and don't tell me that all those mass-shootings in your otherwise beautiful country are related with religion.

It seems fashion these days to blame religion for everything, do you blame religion also when you are ill, or when the weather is cold and wet ?

You are absolutely right , and no, religion is not the only ill to plague  humanity but this is a thread about religion, so.... 

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

You are absolutely right , and no, religion is not the only ill to plague  humanity but this is a thread about religion, so.... 

... If you allow me, the thread is about believing in God or not, but i like your fairness.

I am not religious, and i take everything, except coffee, with a grain of salt, it seems just logical to me that there is an intelligent design in the universe, from the biggest star to the tiniest of beings.

I can understand how people regard religious books as absurd madness, so i will beg their pardon if i have a similar opinion about things like the "big bang theory".

[sirineou]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

... If you allow me, the thread is about believing in God or not, but i like your fairness.

I am not religious, and i take everything, except coffee, with a grain of salt, it seems just logical to me that there is an intelligent design in the universe, from the biggest star to the tiniest of beings.

I can understand how people regard religious books as absurd madness, so i will beg their pardon if i have a similar opinion about things like the "big bang theory".

Of Course there is an intelligent design. otherwise you would not be here to observe it and comment on it.

If you were a different kind of being you would exist in a different kind of universe and for you that universe would also be intelligent. How could it be otherwise?

The only difference between religion and cosmology (big bang etc) is that cosmology is supported by verifiable evidence, where theology is not.

 

[orchis]

"religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich" Napoleon

[mauGR1]

12 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Of Course there is an intelligent design. otherwise you would not be here to observe it and comment on it.

If you were a different kind of being you would exist in a different kind of universe and for you that universe would also be intelligent. How could it be otherwise?

The only difference between religion and cosmology (big bang etc) is that cosmology is supported by verifiable evidence, where theology is not.

 

I agree with most of your post, but, where is a verifiable evidence about the big bang as the origin of the universe ?

And even i should accept the big bang theory, what was there before that ? A huge nothingness ?

[sirineou]

Just now, mauGR1 said:

I agree with most of your post, but, where is a verifiable evidence about the big bang as the origin of the universe ?

And even i should accept the big bang theory, what was there before that ? A huge nothingness ?

Who knows. there are gaps in our knowledge, no doubt about that, and these gaps are diminishing but I doubt will ever be completely eliminated . In the past we filled these gaps with supernatural explanations hend the "god of the gaps"  god seems to be retreating on smaller and smaller spaces. 

What was before the big bang? perhaps another big bang. And another, and an other,. Perhaps a strobe of big bangs.

Does time exist between these big bangs? 

If time does not exist, then there is no big bangs, no strobe effect, simply light. Simply information and all it's possible possibilities and probabilities.  

Time is the delineation of events,and if time did not exist before the big bang  but exists after. then perhaps the  big bang is not the strobe light but when the light goes off.

All food for thought, but no need for god or gods, because if you want to consider god you will also need to consider where god came from.

 

  

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Who knows. there are gaps in our knowledge, no doubt about that, and these gaps are diminishing but I doubt will ever be completely eliminated . In the past we filled these gaps with supernatural explanations hend the "god of the gaps"  god seems to be retreating on smaller and smaller spaces. 

What was before the big bang? perhaps another big bang. And another, and an other,. Perhaps a strobe of big bangs.

Does time exist between these big bangs? 

If time does not exist, then there is no big bangs, no strobe effect, simply light. Simply information and all it's possible possibilities and probabilities.  

Time is the delineation of events,and if time did not exist before the big bang  but exists after. then perhaps the  big bang is not the strobe light but when the light goes off.

All food for thought, but no need for god or gods, because if you want to consider god you will also need to consider where god came from.

 

  

Food for thought as you say, but according to Hindu ancient theories, God is called the Non-born; if S/He had a beginning and an end, thus S/He would not be God, so i'm afraid that we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Interesting thoughts about time though.

[VincentRJ]

6 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

Buddhism denies the claims of the Bible. Buddhists teach that Jesus did not arise from the dead. Therefore, Buddhists deny that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God. Both Buddhism and Christianity cannot be true. One must be right and the other wrong; both cannot be true!

Don't be silly. Gautama Buddha lived 400 to 500 years before Christ. He wouldn't have known anything about the Christian religion. However the concept of a single Creator God first emerged in ancient Egypt.
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/religion/deitiescreation.html#before

 

"The principal creator god in Ancient Egyptian religion is the sun-god; in the Egyptian language, the word for sun is Ra, and this was one name for the sun-god, but he was also regularly called Atum, from the word tm 'complete'. The name Atum seems intended to evoke all matter as concentrated in the creator, before creation emerged. Creation is a process of unfurling, with the undivided 'All' gradually fissioning into separable entities."

[sirineou]

3 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Food for thought as you say, but according to Hindu ancient theories, God is called the Non-born; if S/He had a beginning and an end, thus S/He would not be God, so i'm afraid that we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Interesting thoughts about time though.

If you believe in God or anything else , you must also by definition believe hr/she exists . Nothing can exist without time because time is the concept that simply delineated a sequence of events.

when people talk about time travel they really don' talk about changing time, time is simply a concept, they talk about changing sequence of events. 

  So  something either exists or does not, and if it does it exists  with in time (a sequence of events) To say something has no beginning and no end  is a nonsensical  (no sense ) comment with in the above concept.

  people like to use it to end a conversation when they don't like the direction the conversation takes , but it does not further anyones understanding. Then people say. "we cant understand God" if we can't understand God, then why are we even talking about the concept? Why we believe in a concept we don't even understand? 

PS: I am not using "Nonsensical" as a pejorative term   

Edited September 14, 2019 by sirineou

[mauGR1]

10 minutes ago, sirineou said:

If you believe in God or anything else , you must also by definition believe hr/she exists . Nothing can exist without time because time is the concept that simply delineated a sequence of events.

when people talk about time travel they really don' talk about changing time, time is simply a concept, they talk about changing sequence of events. 

  So  something either exists or does not, and if it does it exists  with in time (a sequence of events) To say something has no beginning and no end  is a nonsensical  (no sense ) comment with in the above concept.

  people like to use it to end a conversation when they don't like the direction the conversation takes , but it does not further anyones understanding. Then people say. "we cant understand God" if we can't understand God, then why are we even talking about the concept? Why we believe in a concept we don't even understand? 

PS: I am not using "Nonsensical" as a pejorative term   

Interesting thoughts, but it's much simpler than that, if you only can accept that your physical senses can perceive only an infinitesimal portion of reality, consequently your logic is limited by your limited perception of reality.

We can't understand a lot of things, but i find nonetheless useful to talk about them, and to talk about, or admitting the possibility, it's not the same as believing.

Yet, as i think that matter is just "condensed" thought, i tend to believe that thoughts are as real as matter, ergo everything you think exists in one reality or another.

[VincentRJ]

34 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Then people say. "we cant understand God" if we can't understand God, then why are we even talking about the concept?

 

Why? Isn't that obvious? We talk about and discuss issues and concepts in order to understand them. In the 'hard sciences' we test our hypotheses under controlled experiments, repeatedly, before we become certain they are correct. Even after certainty, further discussions, observations and experiments, often reveal later that we were wrong.

Why we believe in a concept we don't even understand?

 

Probably to make us feel good and give us confidence in the absence of certainty, and sometimes because we have a psychological problem, such as a phobia about snakes, which is a belief that all snakes are extremely bad and harmful. ????

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, VincentRJ said:

Why? Isn't that obvious? We talk about and discuss issues and concepts in order to understand them. In the 'hard sciences' we test our hypotheses under controlled experiments, repeatedly, before we become certain they are correct. Even after certainty, further discussions, observations and experiments, often reveal later that we were wrong.

Sure , I agree, but the other side says "we can never understand God"

  Whatever I say they will always say "yea you now understand this thing, but you can't understand another. 

 If that's the attitude then why even bother talking about it? IMO it is a lazy debating tactic, that ends conversation probably developed by those who use religion to derive their power .

Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain, his existence is beyond your understanding. To which I respond , "bull <deleted>" , especially if the man behind the curtain is attempting to pick my pocket. 

25 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Interesting thoughts, but it's much simpler than that, if you only can accept that your physical senses can perceive only an infinitesimal portion of reality,

Our physical senses are indeed  limited, but  we do increase the spectrum with technology and derive conclusions trough extrapolation.

[mauGR1]

8 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Sure , I agree, but the other side says "we can never understand God"

  Whatever I say they will always say "yea you now understand this thing, but you can't understand another. 

 If that's the attitude then why even bother talking about it? IMO it is a lazy debating tactic, that ends conversation probably developed by those who use religion to derive their power .

Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain, his existence is beyond your understanding. To which I respond , "bull <deleted>" , especially if the man behind the curtain is attempting to pick my pocket. 

Our physical senses are indeed  limited, but  we do increase the spectrum with technology and derive conclusions trough extrapolation.

Really, i find this thread interesting, and i'm not lazy to debate, so if i say that we cannot understand God, or intelligent design, i'm not lying.

Yet, i'm trying.

Just imagine a bunch of ants discussing the complexity of a jet-plane, do you think that giving them some sophisticate instrument would change their perception of reality ?

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

If you believe in God or anything else , you must also by definition believe hr/she exists . Nothing can exist without time because time is the concept that simply delineated a sequence of events.

when people talk about time travel they really don' talk about changing time, time is simply a concept, they talk about changing sequence of events. 

 

The way we perceive time is relative. A boring lecture way feels longer than it is while 1 hour of fun with friends will feel much shorter than the actual hour.
The theory of relativity also states that time goes faster the higher a gravitational potential is.

Seems to me that time is not a constant at all, neither with-in nor with-out of me. So, from a purely scientific point of view, I would say a state where time is zero is indeed possible. But don't quote me on that, I'm not a scientist. ????

My personal theory is that time works like a carousel. Time passes much faster at the edges of the carousel, and slows down the further inward you go. If you take this example to an infinite center, it follows that in that (infinite) center, time will be equal to zero.

For me this is also a great model to explain what happens during meditation. An untamed mind will race all the time at high speeds. Through the practice of meditation, you learn to quieten the mind for longer and longer periods and slow down the chattering, until you reach the center, where there is no movement, no time and you become the observer, the witness of the world that passes you by.

[ThaiRebound]

Nobody can prove or disprove anything regarding the existence of a supreme being, so which is the best case scenario:

 

A. God doesn't exist, and therefore no continuation of consciousness

B. God exists and it becomes proven. We will be judged in the afterlife according to our actions from this point forward in time and based on the bible's laws.

C. God exists and it becomes proven, and a good afterlife is assured for all, but the internet will disappear for eternity in 10 seconds, including Netflix. (There will be a Blockbuster Video, but returns are 24 hours and you MUST rewind!)

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Sure , I agree, but the other side says "we can never understand God" 

That's a reasonable assumption. To understand the creator of the entire universe with its billions of galaxies and trillions of planets and different life forms; Wow! what a feat! Such a person would be far more knowledgeable than the entire community of modern scientists of all disciplines. ????

 

Socrates advised 'know thyself'. 2400 years later, most people even have trouble knowing themselves, never mind knowing God. ????

[Elad]

47 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

The theory of relativity also states that time goes faster the higher a gravitational potential is.

Seems to me that time is not a constant at all, neither with-in nor with-out of me. So, from a purely scientific point of view, I would say a state where time is zero is indeed possible.

A photon of light doesn't experience time, and doesn't experience distance either because time and distance are linked. When an electron emits a photon of light, there is no acceleration curve to reach the speed of light because anything massless will always travel at the speed of light in a vacuum.