UK PM Theresa May to be told to quit by top Conservative: Sunday Times

[aright]

43 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

So a sovereign state made a sovereign decision that was in its interests. I guess the only thing that’s wrong with that is that it was also in the EU’s interest and thus not in your interest. 

 

Every member state has a veto right and A50 to preserve its interests. “The Project” are the member states and their interests, otherwise they wouldn’t be there. 

"So a sovereign state made a sovereign decision that was in its interests"

Almost correct but not complete.... Ireland made a decision to have a second referendum that served the interests of its main political parties and the EU. The wishes of the people which were expressed in the first referendum were ignored. 

 

In your second paragraph, as in your first, you give more approbation to members rights and their interests over the rights and wishes of the electorate. That's not the way democracies work.

[welovesundaysatspace]

17 minutes ago, aright said:

"So a sovereign state made a sovereign decision that was in its interests"

Almost correct but not complete.... Ireland made a decision to have a second referendum that served the interests of its main political parties and the EU. The wishes of the people which were expressed in the first referendum were ignored. 

“the people” disagree with you: they would have voted against it had they seen their wishes being ignored. 

 

17 minutes ago, aright said:

 

In your second paragraph, as in your first, you give more approbation to members rights and their interests over the rights and wishes of the electorate. That's not the way democracies work.

That’s very much the way representative democracies work. 

[Nigel Garvie]

11 hours ago, jayboy said:

Your views seem distorted through class prejudice. For better or worse - this is changing now a bit - English public schools have educated the children of the English upper middle and upper class. It's inevitable that this demographic will throw up political talent. (Churchill, Attlee, Macmillan, Crosland, Gaitskell etc etc). I agree Johnson is not suitable though your account of the Burmese incident is absurd and more importantly incorrect: he remains the leading candidate to succeed May. His problem is that while popular with members of the party, too many Tory MPs loathe him. Rees Mogg is different and was never a serious candidate.

 

I presume with the suggestion of Hammond, you are having a laugh. He's not even in the list of serious candidates.

 

My money is on Jeremy Hunt and as an outside possibility, Sajid Javid. The ablest of them all (intellectually and politically) is Michael Gove with his planet-sized brain, immaculate courtesy to all and genuine interest in policy reform. But he's got a poor reputation with the public.

I don't suffer from class prejudice. During my mid teens I met and got to know quite a number of "Public" schoolboys and girls, through circumstances beyond my control. There were many perfectly decent people among them, as there are in all classes. Unfortunately the majority were boorish, pompous, and considered themselves for some absurd reason to be superior to others. I am not prejudiced against them, I simply despise them, because I know exactly who they are. The current Tory party is rotten with people like these, they are just the older versions.

I did not suggest that Hammond was even in the running, I simply said that he had balance and intelligence.

Jeremy *unt is one of the most vile politicians I have seen in my life. Hated by virtually the entire NHS, which, many believe, he had been preparing to sell in chunks to the US. They may be right. Michael Gove does show some signs of intelligence it is true.

 

I should have said "In front of his hosts" rather than "To his hosts" if we are being picky. Otherwise my account of the Burmese incident is neither absurd nor incorrect. Here is a description of the incident in the Independent, other newspapers reported the incident in a similar way, hard to do otherwise. It is also on youtube. 

"The British ambassador to Burma was forced to stop Boris Johnson mid-sentence as he recited a colonial poem in the country’s most sacred temple, it has been revealed. 

The blunder came on an official visit to the country earlier this year. Rudyard Kipling’s Mandalay is written through the eyes of a retired British serviceman in Burma and also references kissing a local girl.

But the country, also known as Myanmar, is deeply affected by its colonial past, and the gaffe was described as “stunning”.

Mr Johnson began quoting the opening lines of the poem during a January visit to the Shwedagon Pagoda, in Yangon, the country’s largest city. As he recited the poem, the British Ambassador to the country, Andrew Patrick, grew visibly tense. 

When the Foreign Secretary said the poem’s third line – “the wind is in the palm trees ... the temple bells they say” – Mr Patrick decided to interject. "You're on mic,” he said. “Probably not a good idea."  Mr Johnson replied: "What, The Road to Mandalay?" “No,” the ambassador said, “not appropriate.”"

Pleasant to see pictures of Shwedagon Pagoda again though, it is a while since I was there.

You should insure that you are better informed before you make off the cuff dismissive comments in your post.

[Scott]

Inflammatory post removed.

 

[jayboy]

4 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

15 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

I don't suffer from class prejudice. During my mid teens I met and got to know quite a number of "Public" schoolboys and girls, through circumstances beyond my control. There were many perfectly decent people among them, as there are in all classes. Unfortunately the majority were boorish, pompous, and considered themselves for some absurd reason to be superior to others. I am not prejudiced against them, I simply despise them, because I know exactly who they are.

I think you have rather proved my point.

[Loiner]

  – “the wind is in the palm trees ... the temple bells they say” – Mr Patrick decided to interject. "You're on mic,” he said. “Probably not a good idea."  Mr Johnson replied: "What, The Road to Mandalay?" “No,” the ambassador said, “not appropriate.”">

“Not appropriate.”
The censorship of the PC brigade, has been exported as far as modern day Burma. They’re trying to get a foot hold for it here in Thailand too. Same type of proponent, same type of rhetoric. Fortunately most Thais have a different idea of what’s appropriate.
Boris should have carried on and screw ‘em.

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

“Not appropriate.”
The censorship of the PC brigade, has been exported as far as modern day Burma. They’re trying to get a foot hold for it here in Thailand too. Same type of proponent, same type of rhetoric. Fortunately most Thais have a different idea of what’s appropriate.
Boris should have carried on and screw ‘em.

Boris Johnson seems to drive some on the left quite mad. I agree he's not Prime Ministerial material but he adds much to the gaiety of the nation. The fuss in Burma was entirely manufactured by the British left-wing press: the Burmese had no issues with his  Kipling reference - assuming they even heard it. Here's a more measured account.

 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/10/burma-kipling-and-boris-the-anatomy-of-a-non-scandal/

[Loiner]

Boris Johnson seems to drive some on the left quite mad. I agree he's not Prime Ministerial material but he adds much to the gaiety of the nation. The fuss in Burma was entirely manufactured by the British left-wing press: the Burmese had no issues with his  Kipling reference - assuming they even heard it.

Don’t you just love it when he gets the PC brigade right up themselves? Professionally offended and complain on behalf of anybody, even if they don’t care. I’m not sure who is the better at it - Bozza, or the master Prince Philip. I think they’re both great.
Boris would make a good PM too. The public have him as outright favourite for when Theresa has been ousted. But he’s not favoured amongst the other MPs. Maybe that’s why the 1922 committee are back-pedalling on Theresa, because they wouldn’t want him as PM. There are too many Remainers in the ranks and Boris could have us out of the EU No Deal, without their nonsense.

[evadgib]

I've said all along that we needed a Maggie...????

 

[evadgib]

22 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

“I’m not talking legislation” — of course you’re not, because legislation proves you’re babbling nonsense. It was the Irish’s own sovereign decision to hold a referendum. It was the Irish people’s own decision how they voted in the referendum. So it was the UK’s own sovereign decision to ask for an extension. Same as it was the UK’s own sovereign decision to reject a no-deal Brexit. Those are facts. All written and for everyone available the in the respective legislation. The fact that you don’t like it doesn’t change it. 

Didn't they get it right the first time?

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Didn't they get it right the first time?

Just looking at the way the people voted, it’s quite obvious they felt they didn’t get it right. Shows why it’s important to not refuse people a vote. 

[aright]

4 minutes ago, evadgib said:

I've said all along that we needed a Maggie...????

 

I think it's sad she never made her presence felt in the Lords but rumour has it she was denied a peerage by Cameron because of her stand against fox hunting. 

[evadgib]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

I think it's sad she never made her presence felt in the Lords but rumour has it she was denied a peerage by Cameron because of her stand against fox hunting. 

Thankfully Cameron, Osborn, Blair, Broon, May & perhaps even Bercow are unlikely to get there either.

[evadgib]

12 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Just looking at the way the people voted, it’s quite obvious they felt they didn’t get it right. Shows why it’s important to not refuse people a vote. 

I'd only accept that if I could be sure it would work in both directions which sadly would never be the case.

[aright]

21 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Didn't they get it right the first time?

Not in the Irish Government or the EU's eyes no! Sod the people. 

I have to say this though at least the Irish people got a vote on the Lisbon Treaty we Brits didn't....Gordon Brown just signed it. Remainers seem to like this form of democracy by subterfuge.

 

[aright]

[Nigel Garvie]

4 hours ago, jayboy said:

Boris Johnson seems to drive some on the left quite mad. I agree he's not Prime Ministerial material but he adds much to the gaiety of the nation. The fuss in Burma was entirely manufactured by the British left-wing press: the Burmese had no issues with his  Kipling reference - assuming they even heard it. Here's a more measured account.

 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/10/burma-kipling-and-boris-the-anatomy-of-a-non-scandal/

I have never met anyone- left wing or not- who has been driven mad (Per se) by Boris. He irritates many, and a vast number of people simply despise him. Like most British people outside the dwindling membership of the Tory party, I see him as a pompous, blundering, buffoon, whose bare faced ambition leaves him principle free, and devoid of many basic standards of decency. If he saw it in his personal interest he would dump Brexit and become an ardent remainer overnight. That is why I expect, he is not popular with Tory MPs, he is totally unreliable, and untrustworthy. This is totally separate from the Burma incident which is simply symptomatic of his inability to consider his hosts strong feelings about being colonized by what were basically a bunch of thieves with gunboats. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with being PC. The whole PC thing doesn't belong to my generation, and I think it is half baked. Essentially it is the elevation of self righteous moral posturing about sensitivity, over truth. I have no time for it, showing consideration for the feelings of others is part of being civilized, you shouldn't need PC rules to do that.

 

Rather poor article in the Tory magazine the Spectator, but as Randy Mice Davies famously said "He would say that, wouldn't he".

[evadgib]

[adammike]

44 minutes ago, aright said:

Not in the Irish Government or the EU's eyes no! Sod the people. 

I have to say this though at least the Irish people got a vote on the Lisbon Treaty we Brits didn't....Gordon Brown just signed it. Remainers seem to like this form of democracy by subterfuge.

 

The Irish people were lied to by anti EU press and politicians so they voted no.Once they learned the truth and the facts the voted yes.

[aright]

18 minutes ago, adammike said:

The Irish people were lied to by anti EU press and politicians so they voted no.Once they learned the truth and the facts the voted yes.

The major political parties were in favour of more integration so who told them the truth and the facts then. The EU?????

[jayboy]

32 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I have never met anyone- left wing or not- who has been driven mad (Per se) by Boris. He irritates many, and a vast number of people simply despise him. Like most British people outside the dwindling membership of the Tory party, I see him as a pompous, blundering, buffoon, whose bare faced ambition leaves him principle free, and devoid of many basic standards of decency. If he saw it in his personal interest he would dump Brexit and become an ardent remainer overnight. That is why I expect, he is not popular with Tory MPs, he is totally unreliable, and untrustworthy. This is totally separate from the Burma incident which is simply symptomatic of his inability to consider his hosts strong feelings about being colonized by what were basically a bunch of thieves with gunboats. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with being PC. The whole PC thing doesn't belong to my generation, and I think it is half baked. Essentially it is the elevation of self righteous moral posturing about sensitivity, over truth. I have no time for it, showing consideration for the feelings of others is part of being civilized, you shouldn't need PC rules to do that.

 

Rather poor article in the Tory magazine the Spectator, but as Randy Mice Davies famously said "He would say that, wouldn't he".

Much the same could have been said about many political chancers including Disraeli, Lloyd-George and Churchill. Ambitious politicians want to win power and politics is the art of the possible. Boris won two mayoral elections in one of the earth's largest multicultural cities and therefore I suggest a bit of caution is needed in advancing the suggestion he is universally despised. As it happens I think his moment has passed so the discussion is likely to lead nowhere.

 

I thought the Spectator article rather good myself. I note you take the easy way out by avoiding the argument and just slapping on the label "Tory".

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

I'd only accept that if I could be sure it would work in both directions which sadly would never be the case.

How would it not work to put your cross “in the other direction” of the ballot paper if a person felt his vote wasn’t the right one before?

[Loiner]

This is totally separate from the Burma incident which is simply symptomatic of his inability to consider his hosts strong feelings about being colonized by what were basically a bunch of thieves with gunboats. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with being PC. The whole PC thing doesn't belong to my generation, and I think it is half baked. Essentially it is the elevation of self righteous moral posturing about sensitivity, over truth.

There was no “Burma incident”. There was only the usual histrionics of the lefty and trendy press.
Your reaction is typical of the MSM and those already politically corrected. It had EVERYTHING to do with PC. Regardless of your generation, you have contracted a serious dose of it.
Self righteous moral posturing? That’s standard political correctness for you.

[evadgib]

24 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

How would it not work to put your cross “in the other direction” of the ballot paper if a person felt his vote wasn’t the right one before?

You know full well what I meant.

You lot LOST

Get over it!

[welovesundaysatspace]

13 minutes ago, evadgib said:

You know full well what I meant.

You lot LOST

Get over it!

No, I don’t know what you meant, and I don’t where I “LOST”. The only thing I can see is that you cannot answer my question. 

[Nigel Garvie]

3 hours ago, Loiner said:

There was no “Burma incident”. There was only the usual histrionics of the lefty and trendy press.
Your reaction is typical of the MSM and those already politically corrected. It had EVERYTHING to do with PC. Regardless of your generation, you have contracted a serious dose of it.
Self righteous moral posturing? That’s standard political correctness for you.

It seams that MSM may mean Mainstream media, of which you appear to disapprove. "Those already politically corrected" is meaningless, people say "It is PC, or it is not PC".  You can say "They were  politically corrected" if you want, but it is meaningless. 

I have clearly stated that I have no time for PC, whether Boris is PC or not is of no interest to me whatsoever , my point of view is that he lacks the basic consideration for others that would qualify him as civilized.

You say that I have contracted a serious dose of it, that is simply rude and ignorant. You appear to have a serious comprehension problem if you take that from anything I have written.

[Loiner]

It seams that MSM may mean Mainstream media, of which you appear to disapprove. "Those already politically corrected" is meaningless, people say "It is PC, or it is not PC".  You can say "They were  politically corrected" if you want, but it is meaningless. 
I have clearly stated that I have no time for PC, whether Boris is PC or not is of no interest to me whatsoever , my point of view is that he lacks the basic consideration for others that would qualify him as civilized.
You say that I have contracted a serious dose of it, that is simply rude and ignorant. You appear to have a serious comprehension problem if you take that from anything I have written.

Yep, you are the one that is already politically corrected and don’t know it, or admit to it. It runs parallel with your lefty class war and slagging of the toff MPs. Your posts clearly show it and don’t take a lot to comprehend that.

[Nigel Garvie]

13 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Yep, you are the one that is already politically corrected and don’t know it, or admit to it. It runs parallel with your lefty class war and slagging of the toff MPs. Your posts clearly show it and don’t take a lot to comprehend that.

Please go away and find out what PC - politically correct - actually means,  you are making a fool of yourself.

[Loiner]

Please go away and find out what PC - politically correct - actually means,  you are making a fool of yourself.

I’m staying here. Would you like to tell me instead? Tell me why you don’t think your post about Boris’s hosts and their colonial past is not PC.

[Nigel Garvie]

5 hours ago, Loiner said:

I’m staying here. Would you like to tell me instead? Tell me why you don’t think your post about Boris’s hosts and their colonial past is not PC.

OK I take you at your word, and withdraw the latter part of my last post written in irritation. There are so many arguments going on about PC, it is a minefield, and not simple. Excuse the long answer.

Wikipedia:- “The term political correctness is commonly used to describe language, policies, or measures that are intended to avoid offense or disadvantage to members of particular groups in society. Since the late 1980s, the term has come to refer to avoiding language or behavior that can be seen as excluding, marginalizing, or insulting groups of people considered disadvantaged or discriminated against, especially groups defined by sex or race.

 

In public discourse and the media, it is generally used as a pejorative, implying that these policies are excessive or unwarranted.

 

In the early-to-mid 20th century, the phrase "politically correct" was used to describe strict adherence to a range of ideological orthodoxies. In 1934, The New York Times reported that Nazi Germany was granting reporting permits "only to pure 'Aryans' whose opinions are politically correct."

 

In the 1940s the term PC was used disparagingly, to refer to someone whose loyalty to the CP line overrode compassion, and led to bad politics. It was used by Socialists against Communists, and was meant to separate out Socialists who believed in egalitarian moral ideas from dogmatic Communists who would advocate and defend party positions regardless of their moral substance.

 

in Britain, usage has been confined mainly to the popular press. author Robert Novak, in his essay - Political Correctness Has No Place in the Newsroom, used the term to blame newspapers for adopting language use policies that he thinks tend to excessively avoid the appearance of bias. He argued that political correctness in language not only destroys meaning but also demeans the people who are meant to be protected.”

 

I agree with Novak, though the problem with the tabloids, is that so often things that they are attacking are described as PC when they have nothing to do with Political Correctness, but are just things they want to demonise with a ridiculously overused negative phase. This is just bad, lazy, empty headed journalism in place of reasoned argument. People who don’t understand the background to this are encouraged to use PC as a general put down. It is not as simple as that.

 

As to Boris Johnson, I was not saying that he was being non PC, as in  “Insulting groups of people considered disadvantaged” for example. I was saying that he was failing in his job. He was (Unfortunately) Foreign Secretary visiting his Burmese hosts’ sacred place. As FS he should have the ability to be diplomatic, that is what the country is paying him to do, he is head of the diplomatic service. That includes having the intelligence to avoid saying things, that any fool should know, might cause offense to his hosts. That is not being PC, diplomacy is part of the job, a job that he clearly was entirely unsuited for. They say “A gentleman is only rude on purpose”, sadly Boris all too often appears to be being rude by accident.

 

I think straight talking is a good thing, and as I have already made clear I have no time for the whole PC thing. It has degenerated to the point where the Left and Right are both using it as a stick to beat one another with, which is just plain stupid.