90 year-old Don is leaving Thailand

[dotpoom]

Didn't read all the long post but read enough to get the jist of it.

   I fail to understand, why on earth do you think Thailand (or any other country for that matter) should have any responsibility for Don...if any country should, would that not be his own country ???

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by dotpoom

[JackThompson]

2 minutes ago, dotpoom said:

Didn't read all the long post but read enough to get the jist of it.

   I fail to understand, why on earth do you think Thailand (or any other country for that matter) should have any responsibility for Don...if any country should, would that not be his own country ???

He is not taking "welfare" here (it does not exist for foreigners), so Thailand is not taking "responsibility" for him.  He "retired" here under one set of rules, then immigration changed them when he was 90.  He is the epitome of why there is a "grandfather" clause in such matters - when done humanely.  That is the point. 

[from the home of CC]

18 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

They contact the tax office and verify the figures?  Or the document itself is really hard to counterfeit - like money or something?

Edited 13 minutes ago by JackThompson

Nobody needs to contacted, individual taxation statements are available on line on a personalized secure government website.

[BritManToo]

8 minutes ago, Benroon said:

If English people receive a letter in thai where do you reckon that goes ?

 

I'd read it first.

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

People are upset with the Embassy's for this - but it's not their fault. Blame Thai Immigration for placing an impossible expectation of the Embassies in the first place. As soon as other Embassies recognise their potential legal vulnerability on this, they will follow suit and close up shop. 

It is absolutely the Embassies fault.  Let's look at what was requested and what the Embassies were doing.

 

Thai Immigration asked for  more scrutiny of the documentation for  the Embassy Income letter. At no time to my knowledge did  Thai Imm state they were not going to accept the letters.

 

When the US Embassy was issuing the Income letter- they were having an applicant self certify under penalty of perjury that the info was correct- They were not looking at any 'proof'.  To correct this- all the Embassy would have to do is have the applicant provide either their Social Security letter; military pension letter or other documentation.  No Embassy can or does go back to the source in their home country nor can they for  privacy reasons.  The presentation of documentation AND the Oath would have sufficed and Immigration would have eagerly accept this.  

 

There is no reason to believe Thai immigration or the Thai Government would or could take any legal action against any Embassy if one of their applicants lied- Embassy people have diplomatic immunity while performing their functions.

 

Did some applicants lie- probably- but not many. However- the US Embassy indicated that the applicant who took the Oath was subject to a Felony if they lied and also issued a disclaimer that the Embassy was not responsible if someone lied.

 

Thai Immigration, if they suspected someone was lying could have asked for added documentation. Many have been asked to present their income source and amounts in addition to their Embassy Letter.  If the amounts did not match they could have put the extension on hold and ask the Embassy via the FBI to investigate.

 

IMO- the Embassy simply grew weary of the service; complaints about the cost; etc and decided it did not want to service its citizens any longer.  They went along with the  British and Australian Embassies in lock step and their announcements to the Public  are strikingly similar 

 

 It should be noted that the US Embassy Columbia does provide to this day the exact same service- checking documents presented and issuing an Embassy Income Letter. (Google US Embassy Columbia/US Citizens Services/Notarial)

 

It also appears the Danish Embassy has reinstated their income letter and none of the other Embassies have indicated having any issue with viewing documents and issuing an income letter nor has Thai Immigration shown any reluctance to accept them.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that the 3 Embassies could easily view a few documents from its citizens and issue an income letter that would be readily accepted by Thai Immigration and actually make the whole process much easier for all.  Any lying would be easily nipped by referring people who lies for prosecution.

[Traubert]

12 hours ago, nkg said:

 

That's nonsense. There are 69,000,000 people living in Thailand.

 

69,000,000 * 0.0036 / 100 = 2484 expats. I think there are more than 2500 expats living here .....

 

Maybe you actually meant 0.36% for a total of 250,000 expats?

That's exactly what I meant. But only western expats, i.e. UK, USA, Anzac and Europe.

[the guest]

Thailand won't miss the expats that's for sure, given their new found cash-cows (Chinese & Russians) have replaced them.

[atyclb]

you may wish to send channel 3 your story. i would get it translated to thai also. send in english and thai.  below is link to report story

 

http://www.ch3thailand.com/ข่าวฝาก

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Paragraphs ?

 

[richard_smith237]

36 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

What rules have Thai Immigration Changed?

 

The only rule I can see is the enforced seasoning of 800k baht in a Thai Account (for 2 months before and 3 months afterwards, or something similar). 

Two additional months one cannot spend out of the 800K at all, then 400K they can never spend out of. 

 

Before, one needed 3 months living expenses plus 800K and they were set.

 

Quote

 

Additionally, a lot of people have been caught out by the Embassy's refusing of provide Affirmation of Income because so many people were caught out lying and the Income claims were impossible to confirm due to freedom of information laws in our home countries. 

Why are there no reported cases of people "caught out lying?"  Surely the anti-farang propaganda networks would have been blasting out that news.  Not to mention, for Aussies and Americans, it is a felony charge in your home-country, after you get done doing time on the Thai-charge.

 

The freedom of info protections go out the window if a legal case is brought (subpoenas get around that), which it would be, if Thai authorities had reported perjurous embassy-letters.

 

Quote

You mentioned that "didn't need to pay off immigration with an agent before now"... What does that mean? Are you implying that unless you use an agent your retirement Visa will not be processed even if you meet all the requirements (800k in a Thai Bank). 

Many of those who cannot reach the Newly Moved Goalposts will be using agents - immigration's partners.  That is why immigration did this.  They want "tribute money" - and could not give a hoot if anyone "really" meets some arbitrary money-standard.

 

Quote

So is it just the Affirmation of monthly income which preventing people from meeting the requirements? IF so, thank all those before you who exaggerated their income and abused the system.

No, we can thank the fact that immigration engineered a way to force more honest people to agents. 

 

Before, people needed 65K gross monthly income on average.  Now they need to "import" 65K monthly - even if they don't spend that much, and/or receive money in different time-increments, and/or may have other expenses in their passport-country.

 

48 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

From what I understand my embassy (CDN) requires tax documentation, what you pay in taxes vs income docs (from Revenue Canada). Plain as day and impossible to fake, I don't see them closing up shop.

They contact the tax office and verify the figures?  Or the document itself is really hard to counterfeit - like money or something?

 

So, the only Immigration rule that has changed is the requirement to season 800k for an additional 2 months. 

 

When you say 'the Goal Posts have been moved'... Do you mean that before you needed 65k baht income from anywhere, which could have been income from Thailand (say renting out a property) but now they will only accept income from an overseas source? (is this a new rule?)

 

Additionally the Embassy of 4 Nations have stopped exposing themselves legally by refusing their Notarial services as they are unable to conform income (in provision of Affirmation of Income documentation). I can't fault them for this - it's a sensible move. 

 

You mentioned that you don't believe anyone lied on their claims because no one has been charged. If it's difficult for the Embassies to Confirm your income, it's equally as difficult to confirm someone has lied. Its a fair bet and in all probably scores of people have lied on their income declaration which potentially exposes the Embassy - I too would refuse to expose myself by Notarising such documentation.

 

The requirements are clear and I agree they seem harsh and may seem unfair.

Older than 50 years old & either 65k Baht per month coming into country, or 800,000 baht per year (3 months before / 2 months after submission of documentation).

 

If you meet the requirements why would you need an Agent?

 

 

You mentioned 'what if your income comes irregularly'... Are there not ways around this? i.e. setting up a Direct Debit from your home account. i.e. Irregular income goes into your home account, then you Direct Debit the equivalent of 65K baht each month (as regular income).

 

Unless of course you can't meet the 65K requirement which as I see it is the biggest issue - those complaining, complain that they don't want to spend 65k baht per month... You don't have to spend it all, if you bring it in to Thailand correctly you can send back what you don't spend a couple of times per year. 

 

[richard_smith237]

25 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

It is absolutely the Embassies fault.  Let's look at what was requested and what the Embassies were doing.

 

Thai Immigration asked for  more scrutiny of the documentation for  the Embassy Income letter. At no time to my knowledge did  Thai Imm state they were not going to accept the letters.

 

When the US Embassy was issuing the Income letter- they were having an applicant self certify under penalty of perjury that the info was correct- They were not looking at any 'proof'.  To correct this- all the Embassy would have to do is have the applicant provide either their Social Security letter; military pension letter or other documentation.  No Embassy can or does go back to the source in their home country nor can they for  privacy reasons.  The presentation of documentation AND the Oath would have sufficed and Immigration would have eagerly accept this.  

 

There is no reason to believe Thai immigration or the Thai Government would or could take any legal action against any Embassy if one of their applicants lied- Embassy people have diplomatic immunity while performing their functions.

 

Did some applicants lie- probably- but not many. However- the US Embassy indicated that the applicant who took the Oath was subject to a Felony if they lied and also issued a disclaimer that the Embassy was not responsible if someone lied.

 

Thai Immigration, if they suspected someone was lying could have asked for added documentation. Many have been asked to present their income source and amounts in addition to their Embassy Letter.  If the amounts did not match they could have put the extension on hold and ask the Embassy via the FBI to investigate.

 

IMO- the Embassy simply grew weary of the service; complaints about the cost; etc and decided it did not want to service its citizens any longer.  They went along with the  British and Australian Embassies in lock step and their announcements to the Public  are strikingly similar 

 

 It should be noted that the US Embassy Columbia does provide to this day the exact same service- checking documents presented and issuing an Embassy Income Letter. (Google US Embassy Columbia/US Citizens Services/Notarial)

 

It also appears the Danish Embassy has reinstated their income letter and none of the other Embassies have indicated having any issue with viewing documents and issuing an income letter nor has Thai Immigration shown any reluctance to accept them.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that the 3 Embassies could easily view a few documents from its citizens and issue an income letter that would be readily accepted by Thai Immigration and actually make the whole process much easier for all.  Any lying would be easily nipped by referring people who lies for prosecution.

 

Why is the onus on the Embassy to Notarise anything without being able to prove it. 

 

What it comes down to is that it is suspected that so many people have been lying on this documentation that the Embassies which backed out from providing the Affirmations did so because they are unable to back up their signature with proof. 

 

What the Embassies are in effect saying when they affirm the documentation is 'We have not checked, but under the threat of chargers of Perjury we believe the Oath made by the applicant. 

 

The Embassies are now implying that they don't believe their citizens and the threat of Perjury charges are too weak because they don't have the resources to investigate. 

 

If the Embassies were to bring back the Affirmation of Income documentation, they could do so and investigate some of the claims / oaths - but that would involve greater costs - then the Retired community would be crying that they are being ripped off. 

 

 

The blame is with Thai Immigration requesting such proof in the first place, no?

 

It would seem that the only proof Thai Immigration need is a Monthly income of 65k baht going into their bank account which hasn't been recirculated / moved through local accounts (its more difficult to circulate the money internationally).

 

 

[XGM]

12 minutes ago, Traubert said:

12 hours ago, nkg said:

 

That's nonsense. There are 69,000,000 people living in Thailand.

 

69,000,000 * 0.0036 / 100 = 2484 expats. I think there are more than 2500 expats living here .....

 

Maybe you actually meant 0.36% for a total of 250,000 expats?

That's exactly what I meant. But only western expats, i.e. UK, USA, Anzac and Europe.

I'd say somewhere between 25,000 - 50,000 is more realistic.

Still, very minor impact on the economy, if any, or very localized on certain sectors.

[soalbundy]

18 hours ago, fishtank said:

I cannot see anyone disagreeing with that .

I disagree, at 90 one isn't even welcome in one's own country, why do people expect a welcome mat when in a foreign country. My interactions with Thais I would describe as friendly to neutral no different to where I come from. What is wrong with Thais wanting money? You don't like money? you expect them to be continually giving you insane friendly grins because you are a farang? My experience of handworkers at my house is that they go the extra mile without expecting a tip especially if you treat them with respect and talk to them. OK I don't live in Bangkok, I'm way out in the country, not so many farang so maybe things are different here. All these bitter complaints about the general Thai population seem to revolve around one thing, 'I'm a farang, I'm special', get over it, you're not.

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, Benroon said:

If English people receive a letter in thai where do you reckon that goes ?

 

I give it to my wife.

[marcusarelus]

27 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Why is the onus on the Embassy to Notarise anything without being able to prove it. 

 

What it comes down to is that it is suspected that so many people have been lying on this documentation that the Embassies which backed out from providing the Affirmations did so because they are unable to back up their signature with proof. 

 

What the Embassies are in effect saying when they affirm the documentation is 'We have not checked, but under the threat of chargers of Perjury we believe the Oath made by the applicant. 

 

The Embassies are now implying that they don't believe their citizens and the threat of Perjury charges are too weak because they don't have the resources to investigate. 

 

If the Embassies were to bring back the Affirmation of Income documentation, they could do so and investigate some of the claims / oaths - but that would involve greater costs - then the Retired community would be crying that they are being ripped off. 

 

 

The blame is with Thai Immigration requesting such proof in the first place, no?

 

It would seem that the only proof Thai Immigration need is a Monthly income of 65k baht going into their bank account which hasn't been recirculated / moved through local accounts (its more difficult to circulate the money internationally).

Only 4 embassies out of 80 were afraid?  Sorry.  Not so. 

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Only 4 embassies out of 80 were afraid?  Sorry.  Not so. 

so? who else?

[peterb17]

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

What rules have Thai Immigration Changed?

 

The only rule I can see is the enforced seasoning of 800k baht in a Thai Account (for 2 months before and 3 months afterwards, or something similar). 

 

Additionally, a lot of people have been caught out by the Embassy's refusing of provide Affirmation of Income because so many people were caught out lying and the Income claims were impossible to confirm due to freedom of information laws in our home countries. 

 

You mentioned that "didn't need to pay off immigration with an agent before now"... What does that mean? Are you implying that unless you use an agent your retirement Visa will not be processed even if you meet all the requirements (800k in a Thai Bank). 

 

So is it just the Affirmation of monthly income which preventing people from meeting the requirements? IF so, thank all those before you who exaggerated their income and abused the system. 

 

 

Personally I blame the Americans- pop into the embassy - clutch the flag, hand on heart and declare your income was a million a month. 

No evidence required- just lies.

Eventually - some one caught up with that nonsense.

 

I have a very good friend who is now 96 - that’s a fair age - I see nothing but kindness, help and total respect from Thais - he is very frail these days . 

Im not sure where the OP is considering relocating- if back to Europe- one really cold winter will be his last.  

[Thaidream]

12 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

t would seem that the only proof Thai Immigration need is a Monthly income of 65k baht going into their bank account which hasn't been recirculated / moved through local accounts (its more difficult to circulate the money internationally).

The whole point of the income method is that the applicant/retiree actually has 65K per month in sustainable income.  That was the point of the Embassy Letter.  Instead of the US Embassy scrutinizing an applicant's social security statement; military pension statement; Veterans payment or other pension documents- they chose NOT to look at anything and have the applicant swear under Oath the information is true.  Thai Immigration's request boiled down to at least -look at the presented proof.

 

The US Embassy forgot a step- who better to look at a US Social Security statement or Military retirement statement than a US Official representative  However, to protect the Embassy from  any so called liability- they included a statement indicating they are not responsible for the information presented which makes perfect sense.

 

Did some people lie- probably- but not in big numbers.  Thai immigration could easily survey every 100th applicant and say present your documentation or if suspicious ask for it.  At one time they asked me for the proof which I easily presented and it was accepted.  I showed my pension letters; US bank account where the direct deposits went and also the US ATM cards which were used to obtain the funds in Thailand.  Everything matched- Easy to understand and foolproof.

 

Now- to use the income method- I have to call my US bank each month to obtain an authorization code that enables me to use Swift to transfer 65K each month.  I have to wait 3-5 days for the money to appear. Then I have to make sure it is code correctly as a foreign transfer. Then I have to make sure I have all the credit advice when I file for extension. I have to keep my bankbook updated to make sure each transfer posts correctly.

 

Before all of the above- I just went to the Thai ATM and got out what I need each month-sometimes more than 65K; Sometimes less. However, i always had the required income and the proof was my Embassy letter and my pension letters with tertiary proof- foreign bank statement and 4 ATM cards.

 

Something so easy to prove has now been made incredibly bureaucratic and time consuming.

 

Then there is the 800K method- monies continuously tied up in a Thai bank ad infinitum except the brief time interval one can use 400K.  However- make sure your dates are correct- make sure you don't go under the amounts by even a Baht. The whole purpose of the 800K in the bank was to be able to sustain oneself as a retiree in Thailand.  Now, apparently it is some type of permanent bond and one needs another stream of income each month to live on.  However- you don't have to show that any of these monies come from abroad- they can be sourced locally.  

 

Had the 3 Embassies simply worked with Thai immigration to alleviate their concerns none of the changes would have been necessary.  And the bottom line is that of the 80 Embassies who still issue letters- there is no change. The letters are still accepted.

 

 

 

 

[tandor]

19 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

Sorry it happened to you but so it goes when you place all your eggs in one basket.

..at least he is upright and moving across the surface of the planet...good luck..try not to get too bitter about it.

[tandor]

27 minutes ago, peterb17 said:

Personally I blame the Americans- pop into the embassy - clutch the flag, hand on heart and declare your income was a million a month. 

No evidence required- just lies.

Eventually - some one caught up with that nonsense.

 

I have a very good friend who is now 96 - that’s a fair age - I see nothing but kindness, help and total respect from Thais - he is very frail these days . 

Im not sure where the OP is considering relocating- if back to Europe- one really cold winter will be his last.  

..but that's the way it goes.

[perconrad]

3 hours ago, mike787 said:

4 embassies are the genesis of expat exodus.  Impressive deduction...

There are only 3 embassies now, the Danish Embassy again make income letters since 2 month.

[perconrad]

36 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

so? who else?

Now only 3 embassies, the Danish embassy makes income letters again.

[jgarbo]

19 hours ago, RotBenz8888 said:

In English? Straight down the bin.

A polite letter in Thai would work. Whenever it's "serious" communicate in Thai. It is after all the national language. Imagine a letter in Thai or Chinese to the UK Immigration asking for help from an oldie! Brits don't even help their own. And those "uneven sidewalks" are hell here. Dubai has perfect sidewalks.

[Jingthing]

39 minutes ago, perconrad said:

Now only 3 embassies, the Danish embassy makes income letters again.

Something after all is NOT rotten in the state of Denmark! 

[Letseng]

1 hour ago, peterb17 said:

Personally I blame the Americans- pop into the embassy - clutch the flag, hand on heart and declare your income was a million a month. 

No evidence required- just lies.

Eventually - some one caught up with that nonsense.

 

I have a very good friend who is now 96 - that’s a fair age - I see nothing but kindness, help and total respect from Thais - he is very frail these days . 

Im not sure where the OP is considering relocating- if back to Europe- one really cold winter will be his last.  

Not only the cold winter would make life difficult. The miserable, unhelpful people in European countries are worse. Once you are over 60 you are considered a nuisance.

[LivinLOS]

18 hours ago, scorecard said:

IMHO let's keep in mind that the welfare of old farang is not really the responsibility of Thailand regardless of how long you have lived here.

Normal societies have a process of naturalization.. Especially for those with decades living there, marriage, etc.. 

 

 

[seancbk]

3 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

I wonder how you ever lived in Thailand.  1.  Direct deposit account for SS.  2.  Normal every day account and phone banking (not too much in this acount for safety). 3.  FD account.  4.  Stock trading account.   5.  The one where you keep the big bucks.  That's 5. 

Do all that with one account. 

I do have a second account that I opened so I'd have a second ATM card but now I don't use any ATM cards as KBank has cardless withdrawals using the app on my phone.

[brokenbone]

pathetic not to write where you are heading

[Kasane]

Good for him and good for Thailand. Win, win.

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

So, the only Immigration rule that has changed is the requirement to season 800k for an additional 2 months. 

No.  I said,
 

Quote

Two additional months one cannot spend out of the 800K at all, then 400K they can never spend out of. 

Before, one needed 3 months living expenses plus 800K and they were set.

 

Quote

When you say 'the Goal Posts have been moved'... Do you mean that before you needed 65k baht income from anywhere, which could have been income from Thailand (say renting out a property) but now they will only accept income from an overseas source? (is this a new rule?)

No, I mean what I said:

 

Quote

Before, people needed 65K gross monthly income on average.  Now they need to "import" 65K monthly - even if they don't spend that much, and/or receive money in different time-increments, and/or may have other expenses in their passport-country.

 

 

Quote

Additionally the Embassy of 4 Nations have stopped exposing themselves legally by refusing their Notarial services as they are unable to conform income (in provision of Affirmation of Income documentation). I can't fault them for this - it's a sensible move. 

They were not "exposed" - they have diplomatic immunity. 

Thai immigration asked them to do the impossible - "verify" incomes.  In response, they withdrew their letters.  Then, Thai immigration changed back to "certify" - having accomplished the goal of knocking-out the largest providers of income-letters to expats here.

 

 

Quote

You mentioned that you don't believe anyone lied on their claims because no one has been charged. If it's difficult for the Embassies to Confirm your income, it's equally as difficult to confirm someone has lied. Its a fair bet and in all probably scores of people have lied on their income declaration which potentially exposes the Embassy - I too would refuse to expose myself by Notarising such documentation.

What I said was not that.  I said:

 

Quote

... there no reported cases of people "caught out lying...

One can "guess" that some were (and still are from other countries) - but the claim I refuted was that people were "caught out" - they weren't.  Thai Immigration could have gone to the FBI (there is a branch in Bangkok) if they had reason to believe someone was lying.  They didn't.

 

And, again, embassies / personnel are not subject to "exposure". 

 

Quote

The requirements are clear and I agree they seem harsh and may seem unfair.

Older than 50 years old & either 65k Baht per month coming into country, or 800,000 baht per year (3 months before / 2 months after submission of documentation).

 

If you meet the requirements why would you need an Agent?

Many met (and still meet) the previous requirements - letter or bank-money - and didn't need an agent before, but they do now.  That is why immigration made the changes. 

 

If it was liars they were after, they would have left the rules as they were, and closed-down all the agents, instead.   Agents still get 1st class service, though - right past the queue, and bypassing the requirements.

 

Quote

You mentioned 'what if your income comes irregularly'... Are there not ways around this? i.e. setting up a Direct Debit from your home account. i.e. Irregular income goes into your home account, then you Direct Debit the equivalent of 65K baht each month (as regular income).

Some report problems automating this.  Just one mis-step one month, and you are in the agent's domain.

 

Quote

Unless of course you can't meet the 65K requirement which as I see it is the biggest issue - those complaining, complain that they don't want to spend 65k baht per month... You don't have to spend it all, if you bring it in to Thailand correctly you can send back what you don't spend a couple of times per year.

For that matter they could send the same money back and forth w/o the income.  The point is making it such a PITA, that people will use agents, instead.

Edited April 24, 2019 by JackThompson