Undervoltage and damages

[passiflora]

Hi to all

We live outside the village about 1 km from it, in the middle of the fields, we are 7 houses concerned 

There is about 2 months PEA came to work (new poles) and since we had severe problems of under-voltage

We phoned every days (sometime 2 or 3 times a day, and I filled out the outage problem on their application) to our local PEA and to the call center in BKK but they never came to fix the problem

This Monday, 5 of the 7 houses owners gone to our local PEA to complain officially 

We threatened them to go to court if they don't come to repair

2 hours after, we had a outage during 10 minutes and after that the under voltage was fixed, but we didn't saw anyone

We are of course very happy, BUT when we tried to open our aircon, we were disappointed 

We called a technician to see what is the problem, and he told me that 3 of the 4 aircon were out, the thermostats are broken certainly due to the undervoltage 

So my questions are

Can (and where) we fill a complain, and have we a chance to a compensation or a refund for the reparations (around 30k)

Did someone else had this kind of problem already? 

Thanks in advance

 

[metisdead]

Moving to the Electrical forum for knowledgeable replies. 

[OneMoreFarang]

53 minutes ago, passiflora said:

he thermostats are broken certainly due to the undervoltage 

Sorry, I don't think that makes much sense.

The electronic runs on a voltage which is much lower than mains. And it's regulated. Low main voltage does not destroy a thermostat.

[passiflora]

Sorry I forgot a word in the topic I should write the compressors and the thermostats are broken

[johng]

Sorry I forgot a word in the topic I should write the compressors and the thermostats are broken

I would get a second (or 5th) opinion from other aircon "technicians" the under voltage most likely damaged the control board,new ones start about 2000 baht.

Compressors are very robust extremely unlikely to be damaged.

As for compensation from the electric company...I think you have 2 hopes.

[sometimewoodworker]

6 minutes ago, johng said:

As for compensation from the electric company...I think you have 2 hopes.

Would those be the same as the 2 chances "fat" and "no"

????

[johng]

Would those be the same as the 2 chances "fat" and "no"
[emoji57]

Yes, same same but different.

[Kwasaki]

57 minutes ago, passiflora said:

Sorry I forgot a word in the topic I should write the compressors and the thermostats are broken

" Low voltage can damage home appliances by causes motor failure in the appliance.

Voltage above or below the normal level causes damage to the electronic devices."

 

I never do but when there's a power outage it's recommended that your supposed to turn your air-cons off and switch on again when power is restored.

[Golden Triangle]

Okay, I'm not trying to hijack or go off topic here but.....

 

We frequently have brownouts where I live, which means that things like my ceiling and stand alone fans just rotate slowly, the flat screen TV and WiFi all continue to operate, things like the kettle for a cuppa char is a no go as is any air con, my question is: is it harmful to operate my TV with low voltage ? I just have the internet radio on so I can listen to my favourite UK radio station, someone told me that is was very bad idea to have your TV on when low voltage is occurring.

[passiflora]

13 minutes ago, Golden Triangle said:

fans just rotate slowly, the flat screen TV and WiFi all continue to operate, things like the kettle for a cuppa char is a no go as is any air con,

Same for me

[MJCM]

22 minutes ago, Golden Triangle said:

Okay, I'm not trying to hijack or go off topic here but.....

 

We frequently have brownouts where I live, which means that things like my ceiling and stand alone fans just rotate slowly, the flat screen TV and WiFi all continue to operate, things like the kettle for a cuppa char is a no go as is any air con, my question is: is it harmful to operate my TV with low voltage ? I just have the internet radio on so I can listen to my favourite UK radio station, someone told me that is was very bad idea to have your TV on when low voltage is occurring.

Just buy a UPS to connect to your TV, which should then deal with the low voltage

 

I bought these and connected them to our TV's, Router etc etc http://i.nvade.it/5R4

Edited May 1, 2019 by MJCM

[trd]

Just buy a UPS to connect to your TV, which should then deal with the low voltage
 
I bought these and connected them to our TV's, Router etc etc http://i.nvade.it/5R4

Good choice. I only buy APC. I do the same and connect them to my TV's and router. Low voltage and rapidly switching on and off the electricity supply is more likely to damage a refrigerator motor so I use a little gadget, I don't know what you call it, that cuts off the power if the voltage drops below 180 volts and if there is a cut in the supply it has a timer which doesn't switch the power back on for 2 minutes so the fridge isn't being subjected to power switching on and going off every few seconds which sometimes happens and is not good for the compressor. Not a problem for aircons because it's built into the compressor electronics.

[steve73]

Many electronic devices use switched mode power supplies which are designed to operate on variable voltages, so there shouldn't be a problem.

 

Last year my local area had been suffering with many power-outs as our local step-down transformer (for about 100 houses) kept tripping (sometimes every few days), and was forever being reset & occasionally replaced by the local PEA.

 

In addition, I'd been having many problems with my water pump often not switching off, which I cured by dropping the pressure switch setting a little and thought nothing more of it.  A while later my microwave oven kept "popping" and sparking (it was old so I assumed it was on it's last legs), but after chatting with some of the neighbours discovered they'd all been having various problems, so I got a sparky mate of mine to check and discovered we only had around 190V...

 

Called PEA repeatedly, and eventually they replaced the supplies from the local transformers, as well as the transformer itself (again).. and no problems since.

 

Thinking back I'd lost at least a couple of kettles and a similar number of toasters during that same period, which at the time I put down to crappy quality, but since the low voltage have been rectified I've had no further problems.   

[MJCM]

3 minutes ago, steve73 said:

Many electronic devices use switched mode power supplies which are designed to operate on variable voltages, so there shouldn't be a problem.

 

<snip>

 

Could be but my BIL has "lost" (read: stopped working) 2 Fridges because of the variable voltages in our village, since I gave him a UPS and he connected it up he hasn't had a problem since (3 years now)

 

The only thing my BIL complains about now is the frequent ticking of the UPS, which AFAIK means it's regulating the LOW voltage ????

Edited May 1, 2019 by MJCM

[steve73]

4 minutes ago, MJCM said:

7 minutes ago, steve73 said:

Many electronic devices use switched mode power supplies which are designed to operate on variable voltages, so there shouldn't be a problem.

 

<snip>

 

Could be but my BIL has "lost" (read: stopped working) 2 Fridges because of the variable voltages in our village, since I gave him a UPS and he connected it up he hasn't had a problem since (3 years now)

 

The only thing my BIL complains about now is the frequent ticking of the UPS, which AFAIK means it's regulating the LOW voltage ????

Edited 2 minutes ago by MJCM

By "electronic" I meant TV's, computers, hi-fi's, etc.

 

Yes, anything "electrical" drawing higher currents or with motors, etc, is much more likely to be affected.  Fortunately, my fridge was able to cope with the low Voltage.

[Lee4Life]

On 5/1/2019 at 11:08 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

Sorry, I don't think that makes much sense.

The electronic runs on a voltage which is much lower than mains. And it's regulated. Low main voltage does not destroy a thermostat.

I'm with you, but I think it's likely that the damage is not so much from low voltage but the surges that generally accompany the voltage drops. I have been checking the voltage at our house because it has been dropping low and have found it is never above 190v a/c and often as low as 150v. We had a new A/C unit installed last week and when I asked the technician why our neighborhood had such low voltage and frequent "brownouts", he told me that it was no just my neighborhood...it was the entire province! I was somewhat encouraged when he said that the inverter type A/C unit he had just put in would operate on as low as 160v.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Lee4Life

[zib]

If these are non-inverter based aircons without undervoltage-protection they will break because of low voltage. Both the compressor from running to hot which breaks the windings and some controllers.

 

I'm not sure which part you mean when you say that the thermostat is broken after you opened the aircon. If it's only the thermostat it's a 50 THB fix.

 

 

Update: Saw now that you wrote later that the compressors are also broken. Yep that will happen quite fast if low voltage if its not DC compressors.

Edited May 2, 2019 by zib

[Formaleins]

On 5/1/2019 at 11:54 AM, sometimewoodworker said:

Would those be the same as the 2 chances "fat" and "no"

????

"HOPE" springs to mind too - Bob Hope and NO HOPE! Not a chance of getting a single satang out of PEA, They could just plead that it was lightning or similar. We suffer from undervoltage a lot of the time, hate to think what it is doing to my pumps and motors.

[Crossy]

Electronics, at least reasonably modern electronics, will have switch-mode power supplies, these are often "universal" and good for 90-260V. Brownouts no problem. I would include LED lighting in this bracket.

 

"Inverter" devices (fridges/freezers, aircon, washers, water pumps), have a decent input range too, some are good down to 160V others will switch off to protect themselves.

 

Kit with induction motors, fridges/freezers, washers, aircon, water pumps definitely does not like chronic under-voltage. Running at low voltage for long periods will cause overheating and death ????

 

If your voltage is low, and you fail to score with the electricity authority, it's time to invest in an automatic voltage regulator.

 

[KhaoYai]

I'm no electrician but I do know that low voltage can cause damage to some electrical devices.  Many years ago my home in the UK suffered several days of low voltage. Several appliances, notably 2 freezers, failed shortly afterwards and I was told the low voltage problem had caused these failures. I put a claim in against my energy supplier and they paid out without further question. 

 

However, this is Thailand, you ain't got a hope of any compensation.

[Crossy]

Our OP may score with his home insurance, some have clauses for damage to electrical equipment.

 

[CGW]

On 5/1/2019 at 12:26 PM, Kwasaki said:

I never do but when there's a power outage it's recommended that your supposed to turn your air-cons off and switch on again when power is restored.

Not possible, least with mine its not, once the power goes there no way to operate, unless you were to turn off at breaker.

[khunPer]

On 5/1/2019 at 5:11 AM, passiflora said:

Can (and where) we fill a complain, and have we a chance to a compensation or a refund for the reparations (around 30k)

Did someone else had this kind of problem already? 

Thanks in advance

I live in a place that have had severe voltage problems during many years; and often still have under voltage.

 

Those that earlier got their aircons damaged due to voltage diviations could not get any compensation.

 

Your can secure yourself from that kind of problems, using "phase protectors" and magnetic switches on the aircons – one on each phase, if you have 3-phase power – which will cut the supply when the voltage drop below, or go above, a preset value. Normally the default preset is +/- 15% – i.e. circa 190 volt low, and circa 250 volt high – with a delay of 1 minute to 5 minutes before re-connecting the power.

 

Such a solutions is relative cheap, simple to install, and works well. Should also be considered for water pumps.

 

This is how the three phase installation look for my aircons – 7 in total, split over three phases, with one protector only for each phase, as the aircons are small enough for the (probably 16 A – magnetic switches. The protectors are mounted inside a box, this is a close-up when box-door is opened...

 

[sometimewoodworker]

44 minutes ago, khunPer said:

"phase protectors" and magnetic switches on the aircons – one on each phase, if you have 3-phase power – which will cut the supply when the voltage drop below, or go above, a preset value. Normally the default preset is +/- 15% – i.e. circa 190 volt low, and circa 250 volt high – with a delay of 1 minute to 5 minutes before re-connecting the power.

For single phase use they are automatic reset over/under voltage protection device they are commonly used with a contactor 

 

Phase protection devices are designed to prevent 3 phase equipment only being fed 1 or 2 phases by cutting all 3 if 1 goes down or low/high voltage. So if you are using a 3 phase supply as 3 independent single phase supply's they are the wrong devices to use, not to mention much more expensive than you need.

 

[exemplary21]

On 5/1/2019 at 11:45 AM, johng said:

I would get a second (or 5th) opinion from other aircon "technicians" the under voltage most likely damaged the control board,new ones start about 2000 baht.

Compressors are very robust extremely unlikely to be damaged.

The motor driving the compressor is very likely to be damaged if run with low voltage over time.

[donim]

Electromagnetic devices, like compressors and motors and transformers,

run on power which is voltage times amps (currents).

 

If these devices are operating at reduced voltage levels then nominal they will draw higher currents.

The increase in current causes increased heat in the winding and coils of the equipment and damaging the insulation that is protecting them.

 

Electronics powerd by an 'smart' power supply, are not very much affected by this, without gong into details they regulate the voltage per sensing by the ciruit that is inside these 'bricks'. One of the main reason they are mostly universal and can be used all over the world.

 

TVs they keep on running and automatically shutdown when the power is getting too low for them, and when the power is back up they stay (supposedly) in standby.

 

Audio amplifiers mostly are fed with an transformer to the electronic circuit, so when brownouts occur it is best to turn these off.

 

Rgds,

[Kwasaki]

4 hours ago, CGW said:

Not possible, least with mine its not, once the power goes there no way to operate, unless you were to turn off at breaker.

" unless you were to turn off at breaker " that's what your suppose to do. ????

[CGW]

6 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

" unless you were to turn off at breaker " that's what your suppose to do. ????

? so when the power goes off you are supposed to turn the power off at the breaker, then when the power comes back on again you turn it back on again at the breaker, why - what's the difference in just leaving it? ????

[Kwasaki]

2 minutes ago, CGW said:

? so when the power goes off you are supposed to turn the power off at the breaker, then when the power comes back on again you turn it back on again at the breaker, why - what's the difference in just leaving it? ????

I'm not expert I leave the appliances on too,  just reading up on lots of stuff as I understand it I just remember my son whose an electrician saying it's a good idea if there isn't a power surge thingy built into the electrical appliance.

 

So when there's a power outage and they wack it back on I guess that's a surge.

Maybe @Crossy can say whether I'm right or wrong.

[donim]

5 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

I'm not expert I leave the appliances on too,  just reading up on lots of stuff as I understand it I just remember my son whose an electrician saying it's a good idea if there isn't a power surge thingy built into the electrical appliance.

 

So when there's a power outage and they wack it back on I guess that's a surge.

Maybe @Crossy can say whether I'm right or wrong.

 

A surge is a overvoltage for a short time.

 

The most known surge is from lightning, thousands volts.

 

But more common are the smaller surges and they come from fridge and compressors and anything wich has electric currents flow trough a coil/winding.

 

When brownouts happens, the electric voltage is floating and when it jumps up and down you will get surges when the magnetism generated by the coils are dropping but at the same time the electric jumps up again it will collide and floating back on the line impacting other appliances on the same line. Then we speak of surges of tens to hundreds volts.

 

For the same reason, loose conctacts gives small spikes on the net and so will turning on-off-on-off aircon and frigdes.

 

Important is also the load on the circuit of your appliances, higher demand ask for higher currents, which generates voltage drops on the wires. Sudden turning off of one of the heavy equipment the voltage jumps up fast and those attached get a small sudden surge, not really overvoltage but they get juice.

The same reason old thungsten lights (those that got hot, not led lights) dimmed for a short time when you turn on engines (hairdryer, aircon, big blenders..) which is a signal to have your internal wires and connection to the consumer unit checked.

 

An surge arrester leads the overvoltage from lightnings and from the electric net outside straight to earth.

Surge compressors you can find in special power sockets for audio/video.