"New" Retirement extension rules

[DrJack54]

1 minute ago, darrendsd said:

So the "new" rules are basically meaningless regarding the money still has to be in the bank 90 days later? Because if they are not checking then in reality it means it doesn't need to be in there

What it means is will be checked upon your next application. If the amount falls below the 800k three month after then/or under 400k after that then you would not be able to obtain new extension. Simple really.

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, darrendsd said:

So the "new" rules are basically meaningless regarding the money still has to be in the bank 90 days later? Because if they are not checking then in reality it means it doesn't need to be in there

I would not say they are meaningless. It only means they will not check that you followed the rules until you apply for your next extension which appears to be their intent.

[Sophon]

21 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

What it means is will be checked upon your next application. If the amount falls below the 800k three month after then/or under 400k after that then you would not be able to obtain new extension. Simple really.

Except nobody really knows what will happen at your next extension, if it is discovered that your account fell below the required amounts. Nobody knows, because nothing has been specified in the police order or in any guidelines.

 

On the extreme side you could be considered having been on overstay since the date the balance on your account was insufficient, with overstay fine and even possible blacklisting. Technically, your extension becomes invalid when you no longer meet the requirements for that extension (similar to what could happen to other extensions if you get divorced, or stop working). So in the absence of any information from immigration who is to say that they wouldn't take a similar stand in this case? Even if we consider this extreme scenario unlikely, and you would "just" be denied your next extension - then what? Would they allow you to apply for a new NON Immigrant O visa and subsequent extension at Immigration, or would you need to get a new Non O from abroad first? Would they require you to stay out of Thailand for a set period, before you could qualify for a new retirement extension? Would they (again a probably unlikely extreme) never again grant you a retirement extension? On the other extreme side of the scale, maybe they will just fine you before granting your new extension?

 

At this point nobody knows what will really happen, and the consequences could very likely differ between different immigration offices. If they make the consequences to lenient (e.g. just a relatively small fine or require you to begin over with a new Non O granted within Thailand), they we would soon have people flouting the new rules and completely skip any post extension seasoning, and just "start over" every year. So would they then set a limit to how many times you will be allowed to apply for a retirement extension, if you have missed the seasoning rules for previous extensions?

 

Until there is some official clarification, or we start seeing actual reports of people breaking the seasoning rules, it's all just guesswork. My guess (for what it's worth - i.e. very little), you would probably be required to leave Thailand for a new Non O, before they would grant you a new extension. And if you turn out to be a serial offender, Immigration would probably become less and less cooperative.

 

Sophon 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Sophon

[Joe Mcseismic]

23 minutes ago, Sophon said:

Except nobody really knows what will happen at your next extension, if it is discovered that your account fell below the required amounts. Nobody knows, because nothing has been specified in the police order or in any guidelines.

 

On the extreme side you could be considered having been on overstay since the date the balance on your account was insufficient, with overstay fine and even possible blacklisting. Technically, your extension becomes invalid when you no longer meet the requirements for that extension (similar to what could happen to other extensions if you get divorced, or stop working). So in the absence of any information from immigration who is to say that they wouldn't take a similar stand in this case? Even if we consider this extreme scenario unlikely, and you would "just" be denied your next extension - then what? Would they allow you to apply for a new NON Immigrant O visa and subsequent extension at Immigration, or would you need to get a new Non O from abroad first? Would they require you to stay out of Thailand for a set period, before you could qualify for a new retirement extension? Would they (again a probably unlikely extreme) never again grant you a retirement extension? On the other extreme side of the scale, maybe they will just fine you before granting your new extension?

 

At this point nobody knows what will really happen, and the consequences could very likely differ between different immigration offices. If they make the consequences to lenient (e.g. just a relatively small fine or require you to begin over with a new Non O granted within Thailand), they we would soon have people flouting the new rules and completely skip any post extension seasoning, and just "start over" every year. So would they then set a limit to how many times you will be allowed to apply for a retirement extension, if you have missed the seasoning rules for previous extensions?

 

Until there is some official clarification, or we start seeing actual reports of people breaking the seasoning rules, it's all just guesswork. My guess (for what it's worth - i.e. very little), you would probably be required to leave Thailand for a new Non O, before they would grant you a new extension. And if you turn out to be a serial offender, Immigration would probably become less and less cooperative.

 

Sophon 

Phuket immigration office have already stated....

 

1. That the 800k and 400k seasoning requirements will be checked at the next application for the extension.

2. That if the seasoning rules have not been adhered to, another extension will be refused.

 

Can't get clearer than that, eh?

[DrJack54]

14 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Phuket immigration office have already stated....

 

1. That the 800k and 400k seasoning requirements will be checked at the next application for the extension.

2. That if the seasoning rules have not been adhered to, another extension will be refused.

 

Can't get clearer than that, eh?

Seems clear to me also seems logical. However I wonder how long you would be given to clear out. Perhaps the until date in your pp or 7 days or ??

[Joe Mcseismic]

35 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Seems clear to me also seems logical. However I wonder how long you would be given to clear out. Perhaps the until date in your pp or 7 days or ??

As most people try and get the extension a few weeks earlier than the expiry date, I would say when the extension expires.

[DrJack54]

2 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

As most people try and get the extension a few weeks earlier than the expiry date, I would say when the extension expires.

Agree. Time will tell. In any event the person themselves would know if the bank deposit requirements had not been met and exit country prior to until date in pp not wasting a day to go to imm and having application refused. In fact I had a plan to NOT follow the post application money in bank and just use the money. Then visit home country and obtain an O-A. That was before the insurance prospect for OA.

[poohy]

23 hours ago, darrendsd said:

So the "new" rules are basically meaningless regarding the money still has to be in the bank 90 days later? Because if they are not checking then in reality it means it doesn't need to be in there

There you have it!

And for between 15/18k a passport photo and passport you dont ever need to have the money in the bank well other than for about 2 mins on the day of the visa renewal

 

Immigration want you to use agents!

[Joe Mcseismic]

8 minutes ago, poohy said:

There you have it!

And for between 15/18k a passport photo and passport you dont ever need to have the money in the bank well other than for about 2 mins on the day of the visa renewal

 

Immigration want you to use agents!

They are not checking after the first 90 days. They WILL check at the next extension application. In no way does it mean that you "don't need the money in the bank" if you want another extension.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

They are not checking after the first 90 days. They WILL check at the next extension application. In no way does it mean that you "don't need the money in the bank" if you want another extension.

They are checking at Jomtien, a very major office for retirees. I am waiting to see if Jomtien will be doing additional checks after the first one for compliance with the following 400K rule. I am also waiting for reports of anyone brave enough to show up at Jomtien for a show money report when they aren't qualified. We know at the very least their extension will be cancelled but what we don't know is exactly the mechanics and enforcement specifics of such an enforcement action. 

[poohy]

2 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

They are not checking after the first 90 days. They WILL check at the next extension application. In no way does it mean that you "don't need the money in the bank" if you want another extension.

To make it clear what i am saying is..

 people NOT using agents they have to submit to whatever rules are flavour of the day

 

For clients of agents NO change

[Joe Mcseismic]

17 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

They are checking at Jomtien, a very major office for retirees. I am waiting to see if Jomtien will be doing additional checks after the first one for compliance with the following 400K rule. I am also waiting for reports of anyone brave enough to show up at Jomtien for a show money report when they aren't qualified. We know at the very least their extension will be cancelled but what we don't know is exactly the mechanics and enforcement specifics of such an enforcement action. 

So far, only two immigration offices are checking 90 days after extension issued. Jomtien is one of them. They are in the minority, though.

Let's hope that eventually, all offices decide to check at the next extension application.

This is a great incentive to switch from the 800k method to the 65k per month method. Just cannot figure out what immigration are trying to achieve here, by only stipulating that money can't be withdrawn when using the 800k method.

[OJAS]

48 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

As most people try and get the extension a few weeks earlier than the expiry date, I would say when the extension expires.

 

39 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Agree. Time will tell. In any event the person themselves would know if the bank deposit requirements had not been met and exit country prior to until date in pp not wasting a day to go to imm and having application refused. In fact I had a plan to NOT follow the post application money in bank and just use the money. Then visit home country and obtain an O-A. That was before the insurance prospect for OA.

I suppose that they might grant an extra 7 days just as they do in the case of unsuccessful tourist extension applications. But what if they were to stamp in the passport something along the lines of "Retirement extension refused on the grounds of previously insufficient funds"? That could potentially lead to fun and games in endeavouring to obtain a fresh non-O visa from Vientiane, Savannakhet, Penang, etc or a fresh non-OA visa back home - let alone any in-country non-O conversion.

 

All pure speculation, of course.

Edited May 26, 2019 by OJAS

[Jingthing]

17 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

So far, only two immigration offices are checking 90 days after extension issued. Jomtien is one of them. They are in the minority, though.

Let's hope that eventually, all offices decide to check at the next extension application.

This is a great incentive to switch from the 800k method to the 65k per month method. Just cannot figure out what immigration are trying to achieve here, by only stipulating that money can't be withdrawn when using the 800k method.

Huh? Most people in their 50's don't have any pension at all. Retirement stays are offered in Thailand starting at age 50. A significant percentage of people that do have pensions do not make as much as 65K per month. The vast majority of Americans for example with social security checks don't meet that level. Yes I'm aware that other income other than pensions may be accepted, emphasis on MAY as some offices are wanting to see the income is actually a pension. For income/pensions under 65K monthly that's where the combination comes into play, or at least used to come into play. The combo method is much more problematic now because you must meet the rules of both income and bank methods modified for the combo method meaning the mechanics are confusing to both applicants and officers. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Jingthing

[DrJack54]

12 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

I suppose that they might grant an extra 7 days just as they do in the case of unsuccessful tourist extension applications. But what if they were to stamp in the passport something along the lines of "Retirement extension refused on the grounds of previously insufficient funds"? That could potentially lead to fun and games in endeavouring to obtain a fresh non-O visa from Vientiane, Savannakhet, Penang, etc or a fresh non-OA visa back home - let alone any in-country non-O conversion.

 

All pure speculation, of course.

As I previously stated... you would imagine anyone due to apply for their next extension would easily see in their bankbook if they had fallen below requirements. Hence would just exit. Most likely to somewhere like Vientiane for a new non o

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, DrJack54 said:

As I previously stated... you would imagine anyone due to apply for their next extension would easily see in their bankbook if they had fallen below requirements. Hence would just exit. Most likely to somewhere like Vientiane for a new non o

For a new 90 day O in Laos using the 800K do you need to show that that money was imported from abroad? I ask because I'm pretty sure for a conversion O visa done in Thailand that that is a requirement.

I agree the wise thing to do if you know you're in violation is to leave, start over, or perhaps (big perhaps) see an agent.

[DrJack54]

Just now, Jingthing said:

For a new 90 day O in Laos using the 800K do you need to show that that money was imported from abroad? I ask because I'm pretty sure for a conversion O visa done in Thailand that that is a requirement.

I agree the wise thing to do if you know you're in violation is to leave, start over, or perhaps (big perhaps) see an agent.

My understanding is for non o (obviously obtained outside Thailand) has no requirement as to where money came from. I think if you did a conversion say from tourist visa to non o inside Thai then need demonstrate money needs to come from outside los. Expert can correct me on this. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, DrJack54 said:

My understanding is for non o (obviously obtained outside Thailand) has no requirement as to where money came from. I think if you did a conversion say from tourist visa to non o inside Thai then need demonstrate money needs to come from outside los. Expert can correct me on this. 

Yeah, that could be a very important detail for a lot of people especially if the money they have here was imported many years ago. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Jingthing

[SEtonal]

58 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

So far, only two immigration offices are checking 90 days after extension issued. Jomtien is one of them. They are in the minority, though.

Let's hope that eventually, all offices decide to check at the next extension application.

This is a great incentive to switch from the 800k method to the 65k per month method. Just cannot figure out what immigration are trying to achieve here, by only stipulating that money can't be withdrawn when using the 800k method.

There have been first hand reports from three Offices that require reporting back in 90 days with an updated bank book after receiving a 800k retirement extension: Jomtien, Ratchaburi, and Pathumthani. 

 

It is my opinion that the 90-day bank book check is a courtesy to help people remember to keep a minimum balance in their account and Immigration won't bother with it in a couple of years after everyone has done extensions under the new rules.

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1102763-800k-for-3-months-after-application/?tab=comments#comment-14180001

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1100872-pathumthani-retiremeng-extension

 

Edited May 26, 2019 by SEtonal

[Joe Mcseismic]

50 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Huh? Most people in their 50's don't have any pension at all. Retirement stays are offered in Thailand starting at age 50. A significant percentage of people that do have pensions do not make as much as 65K per month. The vast majority of Americans for example with social security checks don't meet that level. Yes I'm aware that other income other than pensions may be accepted, emphasis on MAY as some offices are wanting to see the income is actually a pension. For income/pensions under 65K monthly that's where the combination comes into play, or at least used to come into play. The combo method is much more problematic now because you must meet the rules of both income and bank methods modified for the combo method meaning the mechanics are confusing to both applicants and officers. 

The 65k does not need to come from a pension. It just needs to come from abroad. If I went that route, I would use the same savings pool that I use for the 800k.

[Joe Mcseismic]

14 minutes ago, SEtonal said:

There have been first hand reports from three Offices that require reporting back in 90 days with an updated bank book after receiving a 800k retirement extension: Jomtien, Ratchaburi, and Pathumthani. 

 

It is my opinion that the 90-day bank book check is a courtesy to help people remember to keep a minimum balance in their account and Immigration won't bother with it in a couple of years after everyone has done extensions under the new rules.

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1102763-800k-for-3-months-after-application/?tab=comments#comment-14180001

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1100872-pathumthani-retiremeng-extension

 

OK, three offices, not two........????

[SEtonal]

8 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

The 65k does not need to come from a pension. It just needs to come from abroad. If I went that route, I would use the same savings pool that I use for the 800k.

Individual Immigration Offices can are allowed to ask for extra documentation to support an extension.  Some Offices are going to ask for a pension or an Embassy Letter in addition to 12 monthly deposits of 65k.  Based on reports, Chiang Mai seems headed in that direction.  Phetchabun Immigration has stated in writing that in 2020, for extension renewals,  the 12 monthly deposits of 65k will only be accepted along with both an Embassy Letter and a pension. 

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1083530-the-latest-info-on-retirement-visas-from-immigrations/

 

[Jingthing]

47 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

The 65k does not need to come from a pension. It just needs to come from abroad. If I went that route, I would use the same savings pool that I use for the 800k.

Some offices may be enforcing that differently and are asking for evidence of pensions.

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

My understanding is for non o (obviously obtained outside Thailand) has no requirement as to where money came from. I think if you did a conversion say from tourist visa to non o inside Thai then need demonstrate money needs to come from outside los. Expert can correct me on this. 

For the application for a Non-O Visa at a Consulate outside of Thailand, the money does not even have to be in a Thai bank.

[jacko45k]

17 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Seems clear to me also seems logical. However I wonder how long you would be given to clear out. Perhaps the until date in your pp or 7 days or ??

Or if you have sensibly gone to renew your extension one month before it expires, I would like to think you get that month. Worst case, they keep your 1900 and give you 7 days. 

[AYJAYDEE]

14 hours ago, JackThompson said:

For the application for a Non-O Visa at a Consulate outside of Thailand, the money does not even have to be in a Thai bank.

The Non-O's supplied by the Vancouver consulate require you to exit every 90 days.

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, AYJAYDEE said:

The Non-O's supplied by the Vancouver consulate require you to exit every 90 days.

Yes, and the same for the ones from Thai consulates nearby and elsewhere.

 

Not to be confused with the "Non-OA Visa" - for which one can also use funds outside of Thailand to qualify - but which grants a 1-Year permitted-stay when entering.

 

It is only "extensions of stay" within Thailand that require showing money in a Thai bank.

Edited May 27, 2019 by JackThompson

[Joe Mcseismic]

14 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Yes, and the same for the ones from Thai consulates nearby and elsewhere.

 

Not to be confused with the "Non-OA Visa" - for which one can also use funds outside of Thailand to qualify - but which grants a 1-Year permitted-stay when entering.

 

It is only "extensions of stay" within Thailand that require showing money in a Thai bank.

Non-OA? Never heard of it. Heard of a Non-O.

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Non-OA? Never heard of it. Heard of a Non-O.

I assume you are joking.

There have been many topics and discussions about non-oa visas that is often called a OA long stay visa.

[Joe Mcseismic]

32 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I assume you are joking.

There have been many topics and discussions about non-oa visas that is often called a OA long stay visa.

Sorry, brain fart.