Chanote Query

[beatlebones]

Hi,

I'm trying to sell my land.

I have the Chanote which details my land plot with 2 neighbors plots.

Ive just been told that to sell the land I will need an updated Chanote that shows just my plot...no neighbors.

I'm very dubious about this ....whats the real deal ?

 

 

[Pilotman]

well for a start, unless you are Thai, it's not your land, or your Chanote. So who's name is on it? A Chanote is a legal document, it doesn't have other versions, so not sure what the query is. Sounds like you are talking about a separate Land Registry document, which shows the boundaries of adjacent properties,  rather than the legal ownership document, the Chanote. Then there Chanotes that my wife and I hold are all in her name, or in the name of our jointly owned Company.

 

Others may have a better take on this than me. 

[blackcab]

Is the title document a chanote (Nor Sor 4), or is it a Nor Sor 3 Gor, or a Nor Sor 3?

 

There are different levels of title deed, with a chanote being the strongest claim to ownership, and other title deeds having slightly less certain claims to ownership.

 

For example, with an NS3 title deed there is probably no dispute who the owner is, however the exact boundary of the land will be subject to change after a Land Office survey. Such a survey can add or take away a small quantity of land from the title deed once laser measuring tools are used.

 

Often it's not the small variation on the title deed which is a problem; the problem might be that your boundary fence now sits 20 centimeters on your neighbours land. In extreme cases it can mean a part of your building is now situated on your neighbours (newly granted) property.

 

As a result of these uncertainties some buyers will not touch anything that is not an NS4 chanote. They simply don't want to buy a headache when there are better options.

 

Some people will buy land with NS3 and NS3G title deeds though. You don't have to upgrade your title, and you don't need a new survey. It's not a must.

[scorecard]

20 hours ago, blackcab said:

Is the title document a chanote (Nor Sor 4), or is it a Nor Sor 3 Gor, or a Nor Sor 3?

 

There are different levels of title deed, with a chanote being the strongest claim to ownership, and other title deeds having slightly less certain claims to ownership.

 

For example, with an NS3 title deed there is probably no dispute who the owner is, however the exact boundary of the land will be subject to change after a Land Office survey. Such a survey can add or take away a small quantity of land from the title deed once laser measuring tools are used.

 

Often it's not the small variation on the title deed which is a problem; the problem might be that your boundary fence now sits 20 centimeters on your neighbours land. In extreme cases it can mean a part of your building is now situated on your neighbours (newly granted) property.

 

As a result of these uncertainties some buyers will not touch anything that is not an NS4 chanote. They simply don't want to buy a headache when there are better options.

 

Some people will buy land with NS3 and NS3G title deeds though. You don't have to upgrade your title, and you don't need a new survey. It's not a must.

My family have had at least 10 chanut documents (sor Nor 4) over many years, every one of them, when the land was acquired, had only the boundary line / markings for the specific piece of land. Exact same document used to sell.

 

The land surrounding (owned by others) not shown in any way on the chanuts.  

 

 

[churchill]

Perhaps you have the original paper and the 2 adjoining plots were subdivided from your plot ? In which case the 2 adjoining plots will have new land titles and you will have original larger land title showing subdivisions with the remaining land belonging to you ... Check the back of the paper to see details .

[MikeN]

The actual chanotes to "our" blocks of land only show those particular pieces of land, not adjoining property, although both have a sketch map pinned to the document, showing the rest of the sub division and the location of "our" ( aka her) land. I would suggest you possibly do not have a full chanote ?

[Rally123]

A chanote is NOT the papers to ones land. People seem confused that cuz they have land papers it is a 'chanote'.

 

19 hours ago, blackcab said:

There are different levels of title deed, with a chanote being the strongest claim to ownership

Blackcab's post tells you exactly what a 'Chanote' is. The title of your land paper is in the top right corner of your land paper. Get that translated and look on the web to find out the legal rights to that title. Be careful as to what your missus tells you as it may suit her not be honest with the truth. Most likely reason would be that the land is 'Sor Por Kor' and isn't legally sell-able even though many do. Can only be passed on, in the event of death, to a family member.  This is why the Thai courts are snowed under sorting out land disputes.

[Rally123]

21 hours ago, beatlebones said:

I have the Chanote which details my land plot with 2 neighbors plots.

Ive just been told that to sell the land I will need an updated Chanote that shows just my plot...no neighbors.

More than likely the title paper originally included the other 2 properties. At some time these 2 plots were sold off but being Thais they thought they'd inform the Land Office at a later date. I see this becoming a court case to establish who exactly owns what. Boundaries should have been done before your missus first bought it. I hope for your sake it ain't Sor Por Kor.

[CharlieH]

Well, that just gave my bowels a workout !! and sent me scrambling to establish what was actually on the paperwork.

 

Appreciate the guidance and explanation given here, as I am sure many others will too.

[churchill]

16 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

More than likely the title paper originally included the other 2 properties. At some time these 2 plots were sold off but being Thais they thought they'd inform the Land Office at a later date. I see this becoming a court case to establish who exactly owns what. Boundaries should have been done before your missus first bought it. I hope for your sake it ain't Sor Por Kor.

 You are not an optimist ...

[Rally123]

39 minutes ago, churchill said:

You are not an optimist ...

I tell it as it is. What am I supposed to do, lie?

[churchill]

36 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

I tell it as it is. What am I supposed to do, lie?

No you tell it as you see it ... you are making up a story around your views .

[DaRoadrunner]

Take the papers to the Land Registry Office and you should have your answer. Though anything is possible in Thailand.

[Rally123]

33 minutes ago, churchill said:

No you tell it as you see it ... you are making up a story around your views .

Well what's your advice? All you've done is try to put down posters without an ounce of assistance to the OP. Put up or shut up.

[thedemon]

9 hours ago, churchill said:

Perhaps you have the original paper and the 2 adjoining plots were subdivided from your plot ? In which case the 2 adjoining plots will have new land titles and you will have original larger land title showing subdivisions with the remaining land belonging to you ... Check the back of the paper to see details .

 

Yes this is common and I think is the most likely situation here.

[ThomasThBKK]

Who told you that btw op? Who owns it? Do you have usufruct and co?

 

It's unusual at least but i guess you are in samui? Lot's of suspicious activity there with chanotes.

Normally the land gets subdivided and you get an updated chanote after that. And then you buy it.

 

Get a lawyer if it's worth enough to bother about it imo.

[Rally123]

5 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

It's unusual at least but i guess you are in samui? Lot's of suspicious activity there with chanotes.

Normally the land gets subdivided and you get an updated chanote after that. And then you buy it.

You obviously do not know what a 'Chanote' is.

 

Could the OP give us an update as to his problem please?

[ThomasThBKK]

You obviously do not know what a 'Chanote' is.  

Could the OP give us an update as to his problem please?

 

 

Chanote is the freehold title deed, i am very well aware of what it is, thanks for interrupting.

 

Everyone here is using chanote interchangeable for nor sor 3 and 4 title deeds alike, no need for your arrogance.

 

 

There have been many outright forged chanote titles sold to foreigners with equal bullshit statements like "u get an updated one later" and that's what i am talking about.

 

If you have nothing to add, shut up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rally123]

11 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Normally the land gets subdivided and you get an updated chanote after that.

No you get an 'updated land paper' at the time of sale due to taxes having to be paid. No taxes paid no subdivision. But basically the land can't be updated at a later date as any amendments must be done at the land officer at the time of subdivision.

If you can't get it right I suggest you 'shut up'.    

[ThomasThBKK]

9 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

No you get an 'updated land paper' at the time of sale due to taxes having to be paid. No taxes paid no subdivision. But basically the land can't be updated at a later date as any amendments must be done at the land officer at the time of subdivision.

If you can't get it right I suggest you 'shut up'.    

 

No.

 

The land usually gets subdivided before the sale commences, in advance as it takes easily 3-12 months. It CANNOT be done immediately at the land office.

This whole process is really strict and has to be followed by, any unusual short time, wrong procedure or otherwise mistakes are a permanent RED FLAG.

 

This is all regulated in Land Development Act.

 

Neighbouring plot owners have 3 months (90 days) time to file a lawsuite against the subvision after they get notified by the land office, which is after you applied for the subdivision.

 

This whole timeframe makes it impossible to "just get an updated title deed" at the land office at time of the sale. Nothing is impossible in Thailand tho - so if this happens it's a giant huge RED FLAG.

The subdivided deed get's issued to the original owner and then you proceed with the sale and move it to the new owner. The buyer has nothing todo with this subdivision process nor it's taxes and fees.

 

Never buy a title land that is not subdivided without a proper already subdivided deed.

 

However what often happens especially on Koh Samui and Phangan is this: https://www.samuiforsale.com/other-miscellaneous/land-allocation-law-thailand.html

 

 

 

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But basically the land can't be updated at a later date as any amendments must be done at the land officer at the time of subdivision.

We both agree on this tho, and that's why i said there's something fishy going on here.

 

If the land is LEASED OUT then no subdivision has to take place - i suspect he could also have just leased it.

 

Would be intersting to know if op even has a right of passage over the other land or if there's a public street at least, regularly people buy land here that

s not accessible - one of thailands best scams.

[ThomasThBKK]

For these commercial scale developments they have to follow the land development act precisely: http://web.krisdika.go.th/data/outsitedata/outsite21/file/Land_Development_Act_BE_2543_(2000).pdf

Check Section 22 following in there.

 

Every Subdivision of more than 10 Units is complicated, they need to proof everything, proof there's street access, everything is safe etc. 

 

Quote

There is also an interesting case going on right now with an up market development (no names mentioned) that sold their luxury homes on a Chanote basis, I guess technically they were right but recently the first guy to sell up has been told he cannot have an individual chanote and it is currently in the courts!

That's prolly because the developer didn't follow the law as outlined above and they refused to subdivide it for whatever reason (zoning laws, building/safety standards, neighbours suing, no good maintenance planning, mortgages, third party rights etc.). Seems like outright fraud to me, it's similar to what happens on Samui.

 

I wouldn't buy anything that's not already subdivided on those islands. 

[CharlieH]

Troll post removed.