Johnson warns EU against any 'Napoleonic' tariffs in no-deal Brexit

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Yes they do. In 2013 my niece came out of school here in Thailand and although she was offered various university places none were what she wanted, clinical medicine. We looked at the UK and Leeds,Sheffield and Nottingham were all in the order of £30 - 35K a year which was just out of the question. She looked to China and applied to 2 universities. She was offered a place at Sun Yat Sen university in Guangzhou and after 6 years graduated 2 weeks ago. Fees in China were in the order of £12k a year and in 4 of the 5 years we know about she was awarded a scholarship that covered about 10% of that years fee.

Unfortunately in holding a foreign degree she must repeat the final internship year here in Thailand to qualify for a Thai licence to practice. Following that year she is looking to do a 1 year masters in the UK but at around £40K unless she can qualify for a scholarship it is likely to be a non starter. 

The UK is desperate for medical professionals but they do little to resolve the problem. Universities have openly admitted they need overseas students to subsidise the domestic students and of those that can afford it is unlikely that many will be very productive.

The Thai student on a medical scholarship at Cambridge went on Masterchef and will probably end up in a restaurant.

Congratulations to your niece.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, petemoss said:

They can afford it. It's where the Thai Elite send their children to, and a prime reason that the same people like to keep the Thai Baht artificially high. It's also the case that foreign students are given preference over British students, despite being less qualified, when places on a degree course are limited. Nowadays, universities are businesses, they follow the money.

This is so true. I mean the business bit. Not sure about the rest.

Edited July 13, 2019 by nauseus

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Yes they do. In 2013 my niece came out of school here in Thailand and although she was offered various university places none were what she wanted, clinical medicine. We looked at the UK and Leeds,Sheffield and Nottingham were all in the order of £30 - 35K a year which was just out of the question. She looked to China and applied to 2 universities. She was offered a place at Sun Yat Sen university in Guangzhou and after 6 years graduated 2 weeks ago. Fees in China were in the order of £12k a year and in 4 of the 5 years we know about she was awarded a scholarship that covered about 10% of that years fee.

Unfortunately in holding a foreign degree she must repeat the final internship year here in Thailand to qualify for a Thai licence to practice. Following that year she is looking to do a 1 year masters in the UK but at around £40K unless she can qualify for a scholarship it is likely to be a non starter. 

The UK is desperate for medical professionals but they do little to resolve the problem. Universities have openly admitted they need overseas students to subsidise the domestic students and of those that can afford it is unlikely that many will be very productive.

The Thai student on a medical scholarship at Cambridge went on Masterchef and will probably end up in a restaurant.

Seems to vary but when I checked last most unis were about double for international fees for bachelor courses. Some masters are almost the same. Specialty medical masters courses not sure.

[nontabury]

7 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

Manchester charge 2 x Domestic rates for oversees students

 

Can you please provide an official link to your information.

And if it is correct, can you confirm that the children of British tax paying citizens who happen to live abroad,are also subject to these same fees. Unlike the children of E.u citizens.

Edited July 13, 2019 by nontabury

[nontabury]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

Yes they do. In 2013 my niece came out of school here in Thailand and although she was offered various university places none were what she wanted, clinical medicine. We looked at the UK and Leeds,Sheffield and Nottingham were all in the order of £30 - 35K a year which was just out of the question. She looked to China and applied to 2 universities. She was offered a place at Sun Yat Sen university in Guangzhou and after 6 years graduated 2 weeks ago. Fees in China were in the order of £12k a year and in 4 of the 5 years we know about she was awarded a scholarship that covered about 10% of that years fee.

Unfortunately in holding a foreign degree she must repeat the final internship year here in Thailand to qualify for a Thai licence to practice. Following that year she is looking to do a 1 year masters in the UK but at around £40K unless she can qualify for a scholarship it is likely to be a non starter. 

The UK is desperate for medical professionals but they do little to resolve the problem. Universities have openly admitted they need overseas students to subsidise the domestic students and of those that can afford it is unlikely that many will be very productive.

The Thai student on a medical scholarship at Cambridge went on Masterchef and will probably end up in a restaurant.

 

Nice try at deflection. But we are discussing foreign National gaining preferential treatment over the children of British tax paying citizens who happen to reside abroad. Nothing to do with China.

 However I do agree with your comments regarding the lack of opportunities for British children to study medicine in the U.K.

 There are only 7500 students being medically trained in the U.K at the moment, although that figure will shortly rise to 8500. Yet we need 10,000 to cope with the future requirements. This has lead to many British students, having to study at a cost, their chosen subject in other countries such as Romania.

 

At the University of Leicester Medical School for example, UK and EU students pay the standard £9,000 per year, including the iBSc, but if you live in a non-EU country, the tuition fee for the Medical Degree (MBChB) is £17,270 per year for the first two years, then £35,170 for each of years 3, 4 and 5.

 

 

Additional information for medical students

If you are a Home (UK) or EU student on the six-year medicine course, you will have different course fee arrangements in years five and six. Course fees for UK students in these years of study will be covered by the NHS. Course fee support arrangements for EU students in years five and six are not yet known. Visit the Funding for UK/EU Medical Students page for more information. Medical students with Islands or Overseas fee status should note that the course fees for the clinical years of their course will be considerably higher.

Edited July 13, 2019 by nontabury

[sandyf]

20 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

Nice try at deflection. But we are discussing foreign National gaining preferential treatment over the children of British tax paying citizens who happen to reside abroad. Nothing to do with China. 

No deflection intended. The point was that the objective to obtain a medical degree was not pie in the sky, prohibitive costs ruled out the UK so it was done in China, a perfectly valid reference.

Foreign nationals do not get preferential treatment over UK students. each university allocates a quota for overseas students and they have to compete globally for these places. As already mentioned, universities are effectively a business and they need the income from the overseas students in order to provide places for the UK students. We all know what happens to businesses with insufficient income.

Bottom line here is you consider it quite acceptable to deprive the UK students of the opportunities available in Europe so that EU students are prevented from coming to the UK.

Do you really think that leaving the EU is going to make any difference in fees other than to EU students, as much chance as my pension being unfrozen.

[nontabury]

14 minutes ago, sandyf said:

No deflection intended. The point was that the objective to obtain a medical degree was not pie in the sky, prohibitive costs ruled out the UK so it was done in China, a perfectly valid reference.

Foreign nationals do not get preferential treatment over UK students. each university allocates a quota for overseas students and they have to compete globally for these places. As already mentioned, universities are effectively a business and they need the income from the overseas students in order to provide places for the UK students. We all know what happens to businesses with insufficient income.

Bottom line here is you consider it quite acceptable to deprive the UK students of the opportunities available in Europe so that EU students are prevented from coming to the UK.

Do you really think that leaving the EU is going to make any difference in fees other than to EU students, as much chance as my pension being unfrozen.

 

Yet you are fine in the knowledge that children of British tax paying citizens who happen to live out side the E.u. are discriminated against when compared to Citizens of E.u countries, who may never even have visited the U.k. let alone payed into our system.

 

[sandyf]

18 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

Yet you are fine in the knowledge that children of British tax paying citizens who happen to live out side the E.u. are discriminated against when compared to Citizens of E.u countries, who may never even have visited the U.k. let alone payed into our system.

 

As much as I am fine with being paid less pension, even though I have paid 49 years NI, because I happen to live outside the UK.

 

I wouldn't cut my hand off because one finger hurts.

[Loiner]

8 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

Yet you are fine in the knowledge that children of British tax paying citizens who happen to live out side the E.u. are discriminated against when compared to Citizens of E.u countries, who may never even have visited the U.k. let alone payed into our system.

 

Pick any UK Degree Mill PLC and you will find British kids who have not been resident in the UK for the previous three years having to pay overseas student fees. No Student Loan Company for those kids either - they or their parents have to pay the expensive fees, same as the overseas students.

Proper overseas students pay handsomely for their UK degrees, so there is a good argument for them as effectivley subsidising others on their courses and the Uni generally. They also contribute to the local economy in accommodation and services etc, not to mention the number of Chinese girls supporting your local Louis Vuitton shop. The EU students only pay local rate fees, and are also entitled to the same UK loans. After graduation, it's back off into Europe thank you very much, and sorry there's no way you can recover our loans. They sponge off the UK's commitment to the EU and don't even contribute to the NHS afterwards. No wonder we have a shortage of health professionals.

[Loiner]

47 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Bottom line here is you consider it quite acceptable to deprive the UK students of the opportunities available in Europe so that EU students are prevented from coming to the UK.

Do you really think that leaving the EU is going to make any difference in fees other than to EU students, as much chance as my pension being unfrozen.

The idea of UK kids being able to study and work in the EU is just a myth when you consider the actual numbers who do it. It's all a one way street, with very few UK kids travelling but many more EU kids abusing the UK arrangements. Just like the migration direction.

Yes, it's worthwhile depriving those UK kids of their Grande Tour, unless they win a scholarship or their parents pay. Yes, when we leave the EU there will be a difference in fees with a commensurate change in the numbers of EU students and places for UK kids. 

[damascase]

31 minutes ago, Loiner said:

The idea of UK kids being able to study and work in the EU is just a myth when you consider the actual numbers who do it. It's all a one way street, with very few UK kids travelling but many more EU kids abusing the UK arrangements. Just like the migration direction.

Yes, it's worthwhile depriving those UK kids of their Grande Tour, unless they win a scholarship or their parents pay. Yes, when we leave the EU there will be a difference in fees with a commensurate change in the numbers of EU students and places for UK kids. 

Well, then I do wonder what the thousands of UK students in The Netherlands are doing. Certainly not attracted by the £ 1900 tuition fee? By the way, this is the yearly fee for all EU nationals, irrespective where they live.

 

[nauseus]

13 minutes ago, damascase said:

Well, then I do wonder what the thousands of UK students in The Netherlands are doing. Certainly not attracted by the £ 1900 tuition fee? By the way, this is the yearly fee for all EU nationals, irrespective where they live.

 

That's why they are there then.

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, damascase said:

Well, then I do wonder what the thousands of UK students in The Netherlands are doing. Certainly not attracted by the £ 1900 tuition fee? By the way, this is the yearly fee for all EU nationals, irrespective where they live.

 

 

2,600 U.K. students study at Dutch Universities. As regards the level of Dutch Universities, I do not know. I’m guessing they have some good Universities,like those in the Russel group in the U.K. while others may not be to the same high standard. 

[wilcopops]

18 hours ago, nauseus said:

Congratulations to your niece.

If more British people had gone to university the UK would not be in the mess it is in now......Brexit would have been laughed out of the room

[candide]

15 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

2,600 U.K. students study at Dutch Universities. As regards the level of Dutch Universities, I do not know. I’m guessing they have some good Universities,like those in the Russel group in the U.K. while others may not be to the same high standard. 

Dutch universities are usually good. On top of it, a lot of their programs are taught in English, in particular for Master's degrees.

Edited July 14, 2019 by candide

[Dene16]

On 7/13/2019 at 3:54 AM, sandyf said:

The UK is desperate for medical professionals but they do little to resolve the problem. Universities have openly admitted they need overseas students to subsidise the domestic students and of those that can afford it is unlikely that many will be very productive.

I don't know where you have got this information or maybe it is just applies to medical professions 

I come from a 2 university city (1 new -college gaining university status  in the last 7 years) and only finished a degree course 8 years ago

Universities are big business, the money to be made is extrodinary 12 halls of residences built and whole areas of the city now occuppied by students in those 7 years

Not only do they get the cost from students they also get grants from the government, for a 4 year course £500 year 1 £350 £250 £175 in latter years

Lecturers would basically give you the questions to the exams so you would be prepared (and the answers in some cases). As one lecturer told me, it's all about bums on seats

Yes of course there are foriegn students (mainly chinese i would say) but the idea that they rely on them is preposterous (but a huge source of income)

overseas students are a very small minority but growing by the year from my observations

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, Dene16 said:

 

Yes of course there are foriegn students (mainly chinese i would say) but the idea that they rely on them is preposterous (but a huge source of income)

overseas students are a very small minority but growing by the year from my observations

Percentages vary across the country with a fairly significant number above the 10% mark, hardly a small minority.

Most businesses would be fairly reliant on a customer group that was over 10% of its customers, and extremely reliant where the figure was over 20%, bearing in mind these are the customers making the highest financial contribution.

https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/international/international-students-the-facts/by-university/

 

Universities have been lobbying the government to change the visa regulations to try and attract even more international students. If I remember right international students account for around 20% of the net migration figure.

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, Loiner said:

The idea of UK kids being able to study and work in the EU is just a myth when you consider the actual numbers who do it.

Hardly a myth for some, but everything to the leaver is a price worth paying.

 

But uncertainty hangs over the 17,000 British students who had planned to study in Europe under Erasmus+ from this September. A technical note, published by the government at the end of January, failed to guarantee any funding for the scheme if Britain leaves the EU with no deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/mar/19/erasmus-scheme-chaos-uk-students-limbo-funding-accommodation

[nontabury]

56 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Hardly a myth for some, but everything to the leaver is a price worth paying.

 

But uncertainty hangs over the 17,000 British students who had planned to study in Europe under Erasmus+ from this September. A technical note, published by the government at the end of January, failed to guarantee any funding for the scheme if Britain leaves the EU with no deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/mar/19/erasmus-scheme-chaos-uk-students-limbo-funding-accommodation

 

Yet you are quite happy, in The knowledge that the Children of British taxpaying citizens are discriminated against,compared with the children of citizens of the E.u. who Again may never have previously visited the U.K

nevermind never paying into the British exchequer.

[Loiner]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Hardly a myth for some, but everything to the leaver is a price worth paying.

 

But uncertainty hangs over the 17,000 British students who had planned to study in Europe under Erasmus+ from this September. A technical note, published by the government at the end of January, failed to guarantee any funding for the scheme if Britain leaves the EU with no deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/mar/19/erasmus-scheme-chaos-uk-students-limbo-funding-accommodation

Only 17,000 UK students planning for Europe, of a total 2.3 Million students in the UK. About 135,000 EU students in the UK. Yes, the myth of UK kids going to study and work in the EU continues, just like the immigration flows. They are all inbound! 

[tomacht8]

Johnson warns EU against any 'Napoleonic' tariffs in no-deal Brexit

At the same time, Johnson revealed major gaps in his Brexit plan. Johnson wants to lead the UK out of the EU on October 31, "come, whatever!" Should the EU by then not respond to Johnson's demands for changes to the Brexit Agreement, he wants to retire, if necessary, without a deal from the international community.

Johnson claims that negative consequences of a no-deal-Brexit for the economy could then be overcome by means of a provision of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) - an international treaty that laid the foundations for the World Trade Organization (WTO). Then just the same trading rules could apply as before, until a new free trade agreement is concluded, Johnson said. Customs duties are superfluous. But weeks ago, he could not even name the exact purpose of the agreement.In an interview with BBC Moderator Andrew Neil on Friday, Johnson now attached great importance to Article 24, Clause 5 (b) of the GATT Agreement.

On the question of Neil, whether he also knew what was in paragraph 5 c, Johnson had to deny, however.In it, Neil taught him that "you not only need the EU's approval, you also have to agree on the outline of a future trade agreement and the timetable for achieving that". Why, if Johnson did not even want to commit to the terms of the withdrawal that were already agreed, should Brussels agree, Neil asked. Johnson had no convincing answer.

 

What a Clown.

[Johnyo]

If more British people had gone to university the UK would not be in the mess it is in now......Brexit would have been laughed out of the room

And unfortunately some of the ones that actually did go didn’t make the most out of it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/14/not-cricket-jacob-rees-mogg-criticised?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Think as two short planks.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

Yet you are quite happy, in The knowledge that the Children of British taxpaying citizens are discriminated against,compared with the children of citizens of the E.u. who Again may never have previously visited the U.K

nevermind never paying into the British exchequer.

Discrimination is everywhere, against me with my pension and particularly with the leavers against foreigners. Time to face reality.

Only the naive would think that leaving the EU will eliminate discrimination, it is in the UK government DNA.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, Loiner said:

Only 17,000 UK students planning for Europe, of a total 2.3 Million students in the UK. About 135,000 EU students in the UK. Yes, the myth of UK kids going to study and work in the EU continues, just like the immigration flows. They are all inbound! 

Nothing like a bit of distortion when it comes to immigration, after all it is what motivates brexit.

You quote the Erasmus figure for the UK and another for the EU, there are about 30,000 EU students in the UK with Erasmus.

[sandyf]

10 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

Johnson warns EU against any 'Napoleonic' tariffs in no-deal Brexit

At the same time, Johnson revealed major gaps in his Brexit plan. Johnson wants to lead the UK out of the EU on October 31, "come, whatever!" Should the EU by then not respond to Johnson's demands for changes to the Brexit Agreement, he wants to retire, if necessary, without a deal from the international community.

Johnson claims that negative consequences of a no-deal-Brexit for the economy could then be overcome by means of a provision of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) - an international treaty that laid the foundations for the World Trade Organization (WTO). Then just the same trading rules could apply as before, until a new free trade agreement is concluded, Johnson said. Customs duties are superfluous. But weeks ago, he could not even name the exact purpose of the agreement.In an interview with BBC Moderator Andrew Neil on Friday, Johnson now attached great importance to Article 24, Clause 5 (b) of the GATT Agreement.

On the question of Neil, whether he also knew what was in paragraph 5 c, Johnson had to deny, however.In it, Neil taught him that "you not only need the EU's approval, you also have to agree on the outline of a future trade agreement and the timetable for achieving that". Why, if Johnson did not even want to commit to the terms of the withdrawal that were already agreed, should Brussels agree, Neil asked. Johnson had no convincing answer.

 

What a Clown.

It was distorted and misleading interpretations that got us in this mess in the first place. Incompetence of the highest order.

 

Neil: “How would you get round what’s in 5c?”

Johnson: “I would confide entirely in paragraph 5b which is enough for our purposes.”

Neil: “Do you know what’s in 5c?”

Johnson: “No.” 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-andrew-neil-interview-brexit-gatt-trade-deal-tory-leadership-a9003121.html?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=Feed

[Loiner]

Nothing like a bit of distortion when it comes to immigration, after all it is what motivates brexit.
You quote the Erasmus figure for the UK and another for the EU, there are about 30,000 EU students in the UK with Erasmus.

I quoted your figure for UK kids thinking of going to Europe. Do you have an another one you’d like to use?

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

Discrimination is everywhere, against me with my pension and particularly with the leavers against foreigners. Time to face reality.

Only the naive would think that leaving the EU will eliminate discrimination, it is in the UK government DNA.

Only the naive think that the vote to leaving the EU has anything to do with discrimination.

[wilcopops]

28 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Only the naive think that the vote to leaving the EU has anything to do with discrimination.

What HAS it got to do with??

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, wilcopops said:

What HAS it got to do with??

The preservation of the UK as our nation.

[Dene16]

On 7/14/2019 at 9:28 AM, sandyf said:

Percentages vary across the country with a fairly significant number above the 10% mark, hardly a small minority.

 

On 7/14/2019 at 9:28 AM, sandyf said:

Most businesses would be fairly reliant on a customer group that was over 10% of its customers

 

I referenced  your link and to be honest nothing surprised me with both universities from my city well above the 10% 

I am pleasrd that you stated most businesses above and i would agree with that statement, however, my accounts being from 2 lecturers, it was their opinion that so much money could be made from student enrolments it was all about bums on seats (as they stated)

The lobbying by universities to change the visa rules in my opinion can only be seen as an attempt to  enrol more students and hence more income. Nothing wrong with that as it still would put money into the UK economy

Out of term ( my friend has the laundry contract) these halls of residences( basically hotels now) are rented out to tourists (only started last year).

I should mention at a loss last year but only due to bad management as run by the students themselves to a large degree

MY point is/was that these universities are run totally as a business. external/overseas students may  provide a good source of income but by no means provide/support  UK places

My opinion obviously stems from the views of 2 lecturers and observations around campus whilst studying and helping my friend with his laundry contract