Blatant abuse of entry denials at Phuket Airport

[Caldera]

OP, thanks for posting your update from Phnom Penh. Personally, from reading your initial report I had no doubts whatsoever that your story is legit. These things can and do happen, unfortunately, and there have been similar horror stories from Phuket before.

 

Following the "logic" of immigration here, someone who worked legally in Thailand won't return as a bona fide tourist, just as a then-illegal worker in disguise. That's such a ridiculous train of thought that it just reinforces my view that most of them are brain dead and possess no profiling skills whatsoever.

[Briggsy]

1 minute ago, KhaoYai said:

That's totally wrong (no, not your post). The likelilhood is that a genuine traveller will already have a ticket booked out of Thailand. So, you're holiday is wrecked, you have a flight you can't use and you have to pay for another? Madness.

You have analysed the situation correctly.

 

Many do have a return leg (myself included) but it is not likely that the return leg is several hours after the outward leg. The return leg is often one month or more in the future.

 

In that case, the traveller has to pay the date change fee, which can be very hefty. In my case it was £200. 

Sometimes the ticket doesn't allow date changes and then a new ticket must be bought.

Then there is the loss of hotel bookings, etc, etc.

 

 

 

 

[holy cow cm]

Just out of curiosity. What is your age and what was the approximate age of the other people confined? And countries. Terrible and alarming to read stuff like this. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by holy cow cm

[Stevemercer]

19 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

 

From what I've seen people like to moan and groan about life in Thailand but very rarely do I see them challenge situations. Thailand is very sensitive on some issues - tourism is probably one of the most sensitive. How do you think the Tourism Authority would view this if what the OP says happened to him is correct? Do you think they'd want stories about genuine tourists with visas being denied entry to be reported in the mainstream media?

 

I have always believed that when something is blatantly wrong, it should be challenged - its no use just moaning about things. There are ways and means of challenging situations, to stand a chance you have to pick the right way - that's how I won the hospital case.

 

I think you are dead right. If stories like this hit the mainstream Thai press - legitimate tourists being routinely denied entry to Thailand - the Government would fix the problem asap.

 

I think the problem is the legacy of 'Big Joke' (good guys in and bad guys out) with his successor keeping up the policy without being fully aware how it is being implemented.

 

I doubt very much there is any prejudice against farangs, it is just beauraucracy gone made. As said above, once it gets so bad that reports appear in the mainstream Thai press (harm to rourism dollars etc) the PM will step in and reverse the 'policy'.

[Essecola]

Somebody earlier wrote about visiting once in awhile in order to have "less stress". A lot of people in the western world don't ever travel to a tropical country or to the other side of the world. Why come to a place where ur intent is to relax and enjoy ur travelling when all too often, immigration actually provides u MORE stress than if you stayed at home. Not really the point of a holiday or travelling. I guess a lot of people travel to Thailand unaware of how the country is totally insane now compared to years past. And if it is their first visit and they are only staying a few weeks then they will likely get in without problems.

[ThomasThBKK]

8 minutes ago, Stevemercer said:

 

I think you are dead right. If stories like this hit the mainstream Thai press - legitimate tourists being routinely denied entry to Thailand - the Government would fix the problem asap.

 

I think the problem is the legacy of 'Big Joke' (good guys in and bad guys out) with his successor keeping up the policy without being fully aware how it is being implemented.

 

I doubt very much there is any prejudice against farangs, it is just beauraucracy gone made. As said above, once it gets so bad that reports appear in the mainstream Thai press (harm to rourism dollars etc) the PM will step in and reverse the 'policy'.

Yeah the Nation should report about these stories and not some made up TAT statistics once in a while.

[NoshowJones]

19 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

You can laugh all you want DrJack54. I've read so many posts on here and elsewhere that always claim the 'farang' loses - 'you'll never win, you're a farang'. Obviously I'm not only talking about Immigration issues but whenever I've challenged a situation where I knew I was right in Thailand, I've won. I was told for example, that I had 'no chance' in a case where a major Thai hospital group had lied to me in order to get me to pay my ex-wife's bill. People told me that as a 'farang' I would be laughed at or just ignored. Even my lawyer said I would not win because the hospital could afford to pay high end lawyers - I won the case, got a full refund and my expenses.

 

People say you should just pay the police when you get stopped for some trumped up offence. I have always refused to pay anything when I've done nothing wrong. I've never been locked up nor had my licence taken and I've been stopped many times.

 

I may not always win, I accept that and its also true that even Thai nationals have far less 'rights' than we do in the West but that's not a good reason to let 'wrongs' go unchallenged.

 

From what I've seen people like to moan and groan about life in Thailand but very rarely do I see them challenge situations. Thailand is very sensitive on some issues - tourism is probably one of the most sensitive. How do you think the Tourism Authority would view this if what the OP says happened to him is correct? Do you think they'd want stories about genuine tourists with visas being denied entry to be reported in the mainstream media?

 

I have always believed that when something is blatantly wrong, it should be challenged - its no use just moaning about things. There are ways and means of challenging situations, to stand a chance you have to pick the right way - that's how I won the hospital case.

I have raised my voice and spoken out against IOs on two occasions, stood my ground and won both times, their bosses overruled both of them and I got what I wanted.

If you are 100% certain you are right then stand your ground and to hell with their "discretion".

[Jaxxper]

Visa or not, the entry IO (or superior)  has the discretion to not admit someone even if they are carrying a visa from a Thai embassy somewhere.

I do feel for you though, and I know its frustrating.

[9653]

20 hours ago, dtag said:

I will be out tomorrow morning as it was the first available flight to PP direct from Phuket. It's just been all rather stupid and silly. Stuck in room accepting your fate is bad enough , but then sharing a room with a regular stream of new , disgruntled people gets really old. Especially when most of them were not even classic "visa runners", who at least have some idea this may happen to them at some point.

This sin't actually "cracking down" on anything. It's just screwing people at random.

I commend you for taking it so cool and calm.

I could well imagine, that I would have lost it somewhere along the line.

Lawyer would have cost an arm and a leg too.

I still cant fathom, that your documents were all in order, and that calling an immigration supervisor to straighten out the facts, is not an option.

Dreadful disregard of dignity.

Good luck to you

[lkv]

It's the same format as Operation Crackdown on Thursday evenings for example.

 

Boss tells them...OK...tonight we have a crackdown to catch the bad guys. The trainees there all want to prove the boss how capable they are, then the abuse starts.

[Tayaout]

You can come back from Ban Laem land border. Something similar happened to me in DMK and they sent me back to Laos then I used Nong Khai border without issue. I then took a plane from Udon Thani to DMK! 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Tayaout

[lkv]

31 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

I have raised my voice and spoken out against IOs on two occasions, stood my ground and won both times, their bosses overruled both of them and I got what I wanted.

Yeah. Good idea. I screamed at Police on the street occasionally when they were wanted to check my passport 15 meters away from where their colleagues just checked me 2 minutes before and were harrasing other people. Shocked them a little.

 

What has one have to lose anyway, given these circumstances? What's the worst that can happen, being rejected entry? ????

 

PS: And don't sign anything, it will give them headaches. Thais in general hate to "think too much".

Edited July 5, 2019 by lkv

[KhaoYai]

On this thread and others, I've seen a great many posts stating things like 'they don't want us here'. It's my belief that if that's true, none of you would be in Thailand, they'd simply refuse to renew your next visa/extension.  I do believe however, that the Thai authorities are seeking to remove 'unsavoury' characters. Are they going about that the right way? Well in Western eyes, clearly not.

 

I think you have to try to understand the Thai way of thinking and for us that is either difficult or downright impossible. I don't claim to have much knowledge of other Asian cultures but the 'Thai way' is not at all like the other cultures I have seen and about as far away from Western cultures as possible. They just don't think like we do. There seems to be no basic instinct of fairness...........but is that understandable when your country has treated you unfairly all your life? Is being unfair simply a part of Thai culture?

 

There's a situation in Thailand, not just in immigration but in all forms of administration it seems - that is that there are a set of regulations pertaining to a particular subject. That matter, whatever it may be is then administered by local and regional offices. These offices seem to be able to interpret the regulations as they see fit and that leads to people being treated differently according to where they live. Couple that problem with probably the worst understanding of the English language that I've ever seen in Asia - given that the teaching of English has been going on for years.  Add to that the face thing.........I have a Thai friend who is reasonably well educated and speaks English fairly well but does he understand English? Despite speaking well, I've come to the conclusion that he doesn't fully understand much of what is said to him - its usually evidenced later when I say "I told you that last week" and he looks blank at me but at the time he'd probably nodded, acknowledging what I'd said to save face.

 

I believe that foreigners who wish to live in Thailand should gain a basic understanding of the language but there is an international language - English.  English is the standard for travel and business and there are far more tourists than expats so it is not unreasonable to expect fluency in English to be a basic requirement for staff working in departments such as Immigration. Few are though. 

 

There is then the fact that we have no idea of what pressures are being put upon Immigration staff, what training they are given and what the quality of that training is. We don't know what punishments they may receive if they make a cock up. I know nothing of what goes on behind closed doors in Immigration but I'll give an example of something that happened a while back in district offices (Amphurs).  A few nice Indian gentlemen decided that they didn't need to produce the correct documentation to marry a Thai (the marriages were also probably shams) so they faked them. In the main this was the 'Affirmation of Freedom to Marry', the associated translations and MFA certification.  When this was discovered an Amphur manager who had accepted fake documents was hauled over the coals and fired.  All other Amphurs were warned of similar outcomes if they accepted fake documents. It also came to light that many Amphurs were failing to follow the proper procedure and being slack in their requirements for documentation - they were told to follow the rules.  The upshot of this was that quite a few Amphur managers decided that the best way of avoiding problems was to simply refuse to marry foreigners - how did they know which documents were real and which were fake?  That caused headaches for many people but that's what happened.

 

So we have a situation where laws are interpreted in whatever way a particular area office wishes, administered by people to whom being treated unfairly is normal and in the case of Immigration, cannot fully communicate those laws to their customers. Then there is the fear of action being taken if they do something wrong. Big Joke going around saying he was going to shake immigration up can't have helped much. We must also not forget that 'Tea Money' is also under threat with some of the recent changes in Immigration enforcement.

 

Is it then, any wonder that we are seeing more and more refusals - often for spurious reasons?  I'm told that often, someone being denied entry is asked to sign a form that states (in Thai) that they have not shown sufficient funds - whether they had them or not and that is then given as the reason for their denied entry. What sort of country produces a form for a foreigner to sign that is not written in English? I think we all know why that form is used and why its in Thai.

 

I repeat though, that I believe if the Thai authorities really didn't want you in Thailand, you would not be there.

Edited July 5, 2019 by KhaoYai

[dcnx]

 

7 minutes ago, lkv said:

Yeah. Good idea. I screamed at Police on the street occasionally when they were wanted to check my passport 15 meters away from where their colleagues just checked me 2 minutes before and were harrasing other people. Shocked them a little.

 

What has one have to lose anyway, given these circumstances? What's the worst that can happen, being rejected entry? ????

 

PS: And don't sign anything, it will give them headaches. Thais in general hate to "think too much".

I love giving them headaches. Very efficient at it now. Two can play their little games.

[SteveK]

16 minutes ago, dcnx said:

 

I love giving them headaches. Very efficient at it now. Two can play their little games.

Just do precisley what they do - whatever they say to you, in any language, pretend that you don't understand a single word. Eventually they will give up. I wanted a refund on a USB stick at Panthip Plaza once because it was half the quoted capacity, the same guy was there who sold it to me, speaking fluent English. When I started asking about a refund he suddenly lost the ability to comprehend spoken language, Thai or English. I don't think it's against the law to insist that you don't understand someone.

Edited July 5, 2019 by SteveK

[Thaidream]

24 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

seeking to remove 'unsavoury' characters. Are they going about that the right way? Well in Western eyes, clearly not.

 

I think you have to try to understand the Thai way of thinking and for us that is either difficult or downright impossible. I don't claim to have much knowledge of other Asian cultures but the 'Thai way' is not at all like the other cultures I have seen and about as far away from Western cultures as possible. They just don't think like we do. There seems to be no basic instinct of fairness...........but is that understandable when your country has treated you unfairly all your life? Is being unfair simply a part of Thai culture?

 

There's a situation in Thailand, not just in immigration but in all forms of administration it seems - that is that there are a set of regulations pertaining to a particular subject. That matter, whatever it may be is then administered by local and regional offices. These offices seem to be able to interpret the regulations as they see fit and that leads to people being treated differently according to where they live. Couple that problem with probably the worst understanding of the English language that I've ever seen in Asia - given that the teaching of English has been going on for years.  Add to that the face thing.........I have a Thai friend who is reasonably well educated and speaks English fairly well but does he understand English? Despite speaking well, I've come to the conclusion that he doesn't fully understand much of what is said to him - its usually evidenced later when I say "I told you that last week" and he looks blank at me but at the time he'd probably nodded, acknowledging what I'd said to save face.

 

I believe that foreigners who wish to live in Thailand should gain a basic understanding of the language but there is an international language - English.  English is the standard for travel and business and there are far more tourists than expats so it is not unreasonable to expect fluency in English to be a basic requirement for staff working in departments such as Immigration. Few are though. 

 

There is then the fact that we have no idea of what pressures are being put upon Immigration staff, what training they are given and what the quality of that training is. We don't know what punishments they may receive if they make a cock up. I know nothing of what goes on behind closed doors in Immigration but I'll give an example of something that happened a while back in district offices (Amphurs).  A few nice Indian gentlemen decided that they didn't need to produce the correct documentation to marry a Thai (the marriages were also probably shams) so they faked them. In the main this was the 'Affirmation of Freedom to Marry', the associated translations and MFA certification.  When this was discovered an Amphur manager who had accepted fake documents was hauled over the coals and fired.  All other Amphurs were warned of similar outcomes if they accepted fake documents. It also came to light that many Amphurs were failing to follow the proper procedure and being slack in their requirements for documentation - they were told to follow the rules.  The upshot of this was that quite a few Amphur managers decided that the best way of avoiding problems was to simply refuse to marry foreigners - how did they know which documents were real and which were fake?  That caused headaches for many people but that's what happened.

 

So we have a situation where laws are interpreted in whatever way a particular area office wishes, administered by people to whom being treated unfairly is normal and in the case of Immigration, cannot fully communicate those laws to their customers. Then there is the fear of action being taken if they do something wrong. Big Joke going around saying he was going to shake immigration up can't have helped much. We must also not forget that 'Tea Money' is also under threat with some of the recent changes in Immigration enforcement.

 

Is it then, any wonder that we are seeing more and more refusals - often for spurious reasons?  I'm told that often, someone being denied entry is asked to sign a form that states (in Thai) that they have not shown sufficient funds - whether they had them or not and that is then given as the reason for their denied entry. What sort of country produces a form for a foreigner to sign that is not written in English? I think we all know why that form is used and why its in Thai.

 

I repeat though, that I believe if the Thai authorities really didn't want you in Thailand, you would not be there.

I agree completely with what you said and in my many experiences over decades in Thailand- I see it constantly.   The Poipet border situation is also based on Thai logic- if we don't admit foreigners- then there will not be a case in which someone has used faked credentials to enter.

 

Banks refusing  to open accounts- many won't do it because  they are afraid to have to converse in English or view documents they cannot read. Simply easier to say - No can do- and blame it on not having a Work Permit or Company Policy.

[robertson468]

Is there not some sort of help line people can ring to complain?  Sorry, I have forgotten the number.

[thaibreaker]

10 hours ago, mikebell said:

anywhere BUT Thailand.  They don't want us here.  Go where you're welcomed and valued.

I can assure you, there are many countries that dont want us staying for a longer while. Malaysia is one of them, I was denied my last entry there, after only two 90 days entries. Even got a stamp telling I may be denied in the future. For no reason whatsoever, I just wanted to stay as a tourist for more than 6 months in total.

 

When neighboring countries are together on this practice in the future, there are not a lot of options in Asia anymore for people under 50, not married or without the 800k in a thai bank (Malaysia have a similar thing for their second home visa).

 

The thing is they dont need our money anymore, I guess.

[Tony125]

4 hours ago, dtag said:

Update:

I flew into Phnom Penh this morning as scheduled. My passport was not given to me but to the airline who took it directly to Cambodian immigration. A letter inside that I had never seen said I was expelled because I had "insufficient funds" . I had submitted this information when getting the visa . I have plenty of funds in both a Thai and US bank account (each one does). This was never mentioned to me by Thai immigration as I could easily just had shown them my bank account balance on a text message from Bangkok Bank. Or brought up the website for my US bank account. It was really sweet of them to give me that extra little challenge to getting a visa back into Cambodia- the place they insisted on making me return to.  The only reason I was ever given as to be denied entry was suspicion that I was really coming back to work illegally. The actual words, said over and over were "you came to work, you came to work" 

I also was never asked to sign anything at any point. My only choice, besides literally running out the door, was to comply with the detention (including paying for my flight back and fees for rooming there). I contacted the only people I thought could help me- the office staff at my former school, and immigration refused to listen to them. Sorry- i never thought to keep an attorney on retainer for such a situation as this.

My visa was valid and had no reason not to be accepted.

To the continuing naysayers- Everything I have said is completely true. You are right though , it makes little sense. The only real sense it makes is they want to appear to be cracking down and they have a quota and they also make a little money on getting people like me to pay.

I'm not sure why people think I would concoct this story and be so eager to dismiss it. But I think they will be eating their own words in the next few months as this becomes a more common story

 

Also- oddly The Tourist visa has no void stamp or any mark on it or anything.

 

 

 

Sorry what, happened to you but for your information 20,000 baht in CASH or it's equvilent  is to be shown when entering on a tourist. Not always asked but must be shown if asked. Money in Thai or other bank accounts shown on phone or bank books not accepted. Also they will not alow you to go to an ATM to withdraw the funds at any of the airports. Many reports of people with tourist visas being denied entry for not having the required funds on hand and not being alowed to axcess an ATM. 10,000 baht required for visa exempt (but safer carrying 20,000)

[lkv]

34 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

I can assure you, there are many countries that dont want us staying for a longer while. Malaysia is one of them, I was denied my last entry there, after only two 90 days entries. Even got a stamp telling I may be denied in the future. For no reason whatsoever, I just wanted to stay as a tourist for more than 6 months in total.

 

Yeah, one solution would be a more consistent visa in one of these more unregulated countries, where you buy them over the counter, including work permit, and then one would receive less hassle, since they'd be "working" in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia or whatever.

 

Not the best solution, obviously the best one is a solid visa in the country you're spending most of the time, but yeah ????

Edited July 5, 2019 by lkv

[ThomasThBKK]

21 minutes ago, Tony125 said:

Sorry what, happened to you but for your information 20,000 baht in CASH or it's equvilent  is to be shown when entering on a tourist. Not always asked but must be shown if asked. Money in Thai or other bank accounts shown on phone or bank books not accepted. Also they will not alow you to go to an ATM to withdraw the funds at any of the airports. Many reports of people with tourist visas being denied entry for not having the required funds on hand and not being alowed to axcess an ATM. 10,000 baht required for visa exempt (but safer carrying 20,000)

They never asked him for the funds, it's just their standard made up reason.

[lkv]

4 hours ago, dtag said:

It's worth noting that you also received a blue stamp on your tourist visa, stating: 

 

"Future applications may be denied if there is no sufficient proof that the applicant is travelling for tourism purposes."

 

I don't think that helped at all at Phuket, coming after a non B.......

 

Still, you should have been allowed entry imo.

 

Just trying to better understand what triggers these people.

 

Sorry you had a bad experience. ????

Edited July 5, 2019 by lkv

[JayBird]

I can understand where the IO is coming from.

He's seen you've worked here, which means you've been in the country and know what it's like.

The IO is unable to imagine why anyone would want to visit his country if they've already been here. Therefore, by Thai Logic, you must be here for reason other than tourism.

The key take away for this, is one should never visit Thailand more than once in their lifetime.

And to be honest, there is not much worth to see here as a tourist that would need multiple trips.

Living here, however, as I do, is a different thing, and still worth considering.

The next concern is if they start denying visitors on a Thailand Elite. Hopefully they don't shoot themself in their own foot by doing that.

[JayBird]

Btw, is it possible that by locking up people they make money?

Charge for food, water, buy ticket, etc?

[lkv]

@dtag

 

Could you share more about the Phnom Pehn experience and if you had other tourist visas in the passport before the non B?

 

Trying to work out the reasoning of Phnom Pehn as far as the blue stamp is concerned.

 

Would help us prevent unpleasant situations in the future (at least to some degree).

Edited July 5, 2019 by lkv

[jackdd]

49 minutes ago, JayBird said:

Btw, is it possible that by locking up people they make money?

Charge for food, water, buy ticket, etc?

If he signed the paper they will charge him for the detention room. I remember something like 800THB per day from other reports

[JackThompson]

9 hours ago, GeorgeCross said:

approximately 50,000 people come through phuket airport everyday and although i don't know what percentage of them are international arrivals i would say it is not an insignificant number. 

 

that being said i find it hard to believe there is some kind of 'sweep' going on there as only half a dozen others were caught up in it with him

 

either the OP was one of the unluckiest guys at the airport that day or something else is involved that he is not admitting to (or hiding).

 

i think for now i'll ignore his pleas to tell everyone i know to avoid the airport, at least until i hear of 100s being stopped per day.

 

hope the OP finally got his flight out ok.

How many of those have been here before longer-term?   Of course, immigration laws permit staying here repeatedly as a Tourist, but these rogue entry-points don't care what the law says. 

 

Also consider they don't have the space to profit from detaining 100s per-day - or no doubt they would.  They don't care about harm to the country / citizens of Thailand, after all - just their own private-interests.

 

8 hours ago, tifino said:

 but what about period of residency for taxation purposes? and now that he's back as a tourist, his quota was already completed; and comes afeter the fact as a tourist before the 12 months have passed

Did they detain him for tax-reasons?  I don't recall that being a valid reason to deny entry per immigration law ... oh, I keep forgetting - they don't care about the laws they are supposed to be enforcing. 

 

[JackThompson]

On 7/4/2019 at 7:51 PM, KhaoYai said:

I don't know if this is possible but can you not engage a lawyer to sort this out - if only to show Thai Immigration that they are wrong? 

 

I understand that you don't want to stay in Thailand now but wouldn't it be satisfying to prove them wrong?

 

I asked a question about being able to appeal on another thread - I seem to remember being told that entrants could appeal but would be detained whilst the appeal was decided. You are already detained so nothing much to lose.

Here is the story of one who tried:

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/992077-entry-denied-bangkok-airport/

 

The TLDR is - he asked to appeal - it was ignored - he was marched onto a plane, then told at the other end if he didn't pay for the last-minute fare, they would have immigration in the other country lock him up. 

 

On 7/4/2019 at 8:23 PM, sanemax said:

Yes, I do think posters should just read  his posts and accept them, rather than desperately trying to find out " what really happened" 

But immigration are angels / boy-scouts who would never do anything bad - so there must be some "other" reason we keep reading all these reports.

 

On 7/4/2019 at 8:40 PM, SteveK said:

The question should be "why are IOs becoming more and more militant and trying to refuse as many people as possible?".

 

Do they get a payment for refusing entry to a farang? Is there some kind of quota that they are trying to hit? Has some directive come down from higher up to encourage them to keep farangs out?

 

If I got denied entry then my wife and her family would be up shit-creek fairly quickly.

 

The airlines may be in on the racket - possibly sharing sales-commissions w/ immigration.  Combine that with immigration pocketing the "detention" money, and the encouragement of the agent-money and elite-visa beneficiaries, and there are many reasons for doing this - there being no sane/honest reason to do so.

 

They don't care about your wife / family a whit (nor mine, as I found out when applying for an extension I fully-qualified for at 2 separate offices / areas of the country).

Edited July 5, 2019 by JackThompson

[oldwelshman]

18 hours ago, balo said:

This got nothing to do with tourists, he's been working here for 3 years, that's why IO refused him entry. 
Normal tourists staying only weeks or up to 3 months on a tourist visa before returning home got nothing to worry about. 

What a knob. Are you saying that no one that has ever worked in Thailand is allowed to give up work and return as a tourist to visit thailand How would you suggest he has a holiday? 

[JamJar]

The common denominator appears to me to be the fact that these people obtained their Tourist Visas from a neighbouring country and not their home country.

dtag alludes to that himself, when he mentioned the Australia citizen who obtained his visa in KL. of course dtag obtained his in Cambodia.

Obviously, people seemingly not returning to their home country rings alarm bells for them.