Blatant abuse of entry denials at Phuket Airport

[acenase]

16 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

@acenase

 

What is the reason on your denial stamp in your passport? I would wager it is different.

 

Yes. The denial stamp in my passport is written as reason (2) No funds to support myself. Even though when I questioned them about it and asked "Why does my denial stamp say insufficient funds when I have cash and also booking my Round trip ticket flight to Vientiane on Thai Airways now which is gonna cost me 10,000฿" They even forced me to book a "Return flight" to BKK because they said in case i get denied entry at Laos, but I told them I only wanted to book a One Way flight because I am not coming back to this airport....then they said they won't let me board my flight to Vientiane if I cant prove to them i have a return flight back to BKK. It made no sense:

 

Immigration never asked me to show them money and I even saw the sign at the Immigration desk that says "With Tourist Visa 20,000฿" and I told them I have 30K cash and tried to show them but they never cared about and acted as if 30K wasn't enough. So I booked my flight to Vientiane with my unused Visa and entered through Nong Khai with no questions asked even with my denial stamp visible to the IO stamping me in there.

 

[huberthammer]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

If a Government wants to enforce it's immigration law- so be it, but their behavior and methodology in doing this should be above board.

I would argue that in many countries Immigration's behaviour is not a great reflection of the country itself. I had experiences either personally or that of friends which made immigration officers in the US, Switzerland, UK and Germany look like proper bullies who would be very much of the opinion they would not owe you an explanation and could just deny you entry or at last shake you up a bit before letting you pass.  

 

Saying that,  Switzerland and the UK immigration at entry have been fantastic recently. Just a shocker what paperwork is needed and what fees they charge for it.  I don't think Thailand is worse than others aside from the obvious bureaucratic systems which is a few years behind as you would expect.

[Briggsy]

@acenase

 

Et voila.

 

They say one thing to you, another on their note to Laos Immigration and the airline and yet another on the official denial of entry stamp. They can't keep up with their changing story. 

 

When someone is changing their story all the time, it is because they are doing something they shouldn't or want to keep the truth hidden.

 

My suspicion is this is driven by Immigration getting a cut of the Thai Elite revenue. If not, it would have to be some sort of anger at foreigners staying in Thailand. Either way, it is a faction within Immigration, not coming from the Head of Immigration and not an official policy. It is certainly not based on the current legislation.

[ThomasThBKK]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

Not sure about Japanese but I am sure there have been some.

For Chinese I can recall reports by those denied entry about there being Chinese and those from other Asian countries being in detention with them.

As many as here, i follow korean and japanese forums a bit, as i have business there...

They all complain, especially koreans as they normally get 90 day on arrival visa exempt. But since korea started not letting Thais in they get refused a lot.

They complain about exactly the same stuff we do from ripped off for vaping to entry denials.

 

No idea about Chinese, but there's absolutely no reason for it to be different there. The myth that Thailand loves chinese more than us is just some TVF brainfart.

[ubonjoe]

10 minutes ago, acenase said:

Yes. The denial stamp in my passport is written as reason (2) No funds to support myself.

Number 2 of section 12 states this.

"2. Having no appropriate means of living following entrance into the Kingdom."

That is the catch all they use to deny entry. Nothing you can show them will overcome that. People have showed a bank statement showing a good deal of money in the account and that did not work.

For not having the 20k baht needed for a visa entry it is it is under this number.

"9. Having no money or bond as prescribed by the Minister under him"

Another one they have used is as a catch all is.

"3. Having entered into the Kingdom to take occupation as a laborer or to take employment by
using physical without skills training or to work in violation of the Ministerial Regulations."

[brewsterbudgen]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

How many Japanese or Chinese have ever been refused entry?  I don't know but I am certain not in as many numbers as Westerners or it maybe that these Nationalities simply do not cause issues when in Thailand such as overstay; drunk and disorderly; robbery; drug usage etc.

 

IMO- one of the main issues is how the Immigration treats foreigners who are refused entry. The reports coming in appear to show unprofessional handling; a refusal to allow the person to 'make their case'; a hostile attitude towards the person; and  no actual legal reason to deny entry as well as a refusal to allow an appeal.  At the same time- using a Thai only form to elicit a signature which in effect is a guilty plea and then using an 'airline rep to 'process' the person denied  -as well as the 'extra' charges looks shady.

 

If a Government wants to enforce it's immigration law- so be it, but their behavior and methodology in doing this should be above board.

There are plenty of examples of Japanese and Koreans being denied entry or visas, for exactly the same reason as westerners are - namely, too many entries or too many visas!  The Chinese don't tend to make repeated visits or try and live here long-term, while using tourist visas, nor do they qualify for visa exempt entry.

[Briggsy]

3 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Number 2 of section 12 states this.

"2. Having no appropriate means of living following entrance into the Kingdom."

That is the catch all they use to deny entry. Nothing you can show them will overcome that. People have showed a bank statement showing a good deal of money in the account and that did not work.

For not having the 20k baht needed for a visa entry it is it is under this number.

"9. Having no money or bond as prescribed by the Minister under him"

Another one they have used is as a catch all is.

"3. Having entered into the Kingdom to take occupation as a laborer or to take employment by
using physical without skills training or to work in violation of the Ministerial Regulations."

Yes, indeed, I got 2 and 3, neither of which is remotely true and neither of which they asked me about or had any evidence of. They are being used as catch all clauses as you say.

 

The detention room head's aide asked the detention room head (rank of captain), "2 and 3?" He replied in the affirmative. And that was the end of any 'investigation'.

[stevenl]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

How many Japanese or Chinese have ever been refused entry?  I don't know but I am certain not in as many numbers as Westerners or it maybe that these Nationalities simply do not cause issues when in Thailand such as overstay; drunk and disorderly; robbery; drug usage etc.

 

IMO- one of the main issues is how the Immigration treats foreigners who are refused entry. The reports coming in appear to show unprofessional handling; a refusal to allow the person to 'make their case'; a hostile attitude towards the person; and  no actual legal reason to deny entry as well as a refusal to allow an appeal.  At the same time- using a Thai only form to elicit a signature which in effect is a guilty plea and then using an 'airline rep to 'process' the person denied  -as well as the 'extra' charges looks shady.

 

If a Government wants to enforce it's immigration law- so be it, but their behavior and methodology in doing this should be above board.

"How many Japanese or Chinese have ever been refused entry?  I don't know but I am certain not in as many numbers as Westerners"

You really have no idea but still claim to know. From what I hear and see quite a few Chinese are being refused, Japanese far, far less.

[ExpatPH]

1 hour ago, acenase said:

 

Yes. The denial stamp in my passport is written as reason (2) No funds to support myself. Even though when I questioned them about it and asked "Why does my denial stamp say insufficient funds when I have cash and also booking my Round trip ticket flight to Vientiane on Thai Airways now which is gonna cost me 10,000฿" They even forced me to book a "Return flight" to BKK because they said in case i get denied entry at Laos, but I told them I only wanted to book a One Way flight because I am not coming back to this airport....then they said they won't let me board my flight to Vientiane if I cant prove to them i have a return flight back to BKK. It made no sense:

 

Immigration never asked me to show them money and I even saw the sign at the Immigration desk that says "With Tourist Visa 20,000฿" and I told them I have 30K cash and tried to show them but they never cared about and acted as if 30K wasn't enough. So I booked my flight to Vientiane with my unused Visa and entered through Nong Khai with no questions asked even with my denial stamp visible to the IO stamping me in there.

 

 

Advice to others, take photo at imm desk of your 20000+ on the desk .....  but im sure they don't allow photos to be taken.

Then one would had more proof that one was denied entry, for no reason.

 

Sad that genuine visitors, with money, without intention to work, get denied more and more.

[Andrew Dwyer]

 
Advice to others, take photo at imm desk of your 20000+ on the desk .....  but im sure they don't allow photos to be taken.
Then one would had more proof that one was denied entry, for no reason.
 
Sad that genuine visitors, with money, without intention to work, get denied more and more.

If you read Joes post (#190) your idea won’t make much difference.

It would appear if your face doesn’t fit or they have a quota to meet or.......or..... well it appears they don’t really need a reason !! then they pull number 2 or number 3 out the hat and you are stuffed !!

[tabarin]

As OP describes it is interesting indeed that some old classic visa runners, including myself, keep getting away with it. 
Like they have some unwritten rule about the 'Old boys network'. 

Funny though, that some people replying here, still keep pointing at the foreigner itself.
Just wonder what they want to do with all that real estate now, as foreigners are the only ones to potentially buy it.

[sweatalot]

5 hours ago, sweatalot said:

Even discussing with the person they want to deny entry  should be a no go.

should of course be: 

 

Even NOT discussing with the person they want to deny entry  should be a no go

[sweatalot]

1 hour ago, tabarin said:

Just wonder what they want to do with all that real estate now, as foreigners are the only ones to potentially buy it.

Enough Chinese (not the cheap group tourists)

[KhaoYai]

5 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Those in temporary detention 'air side' like the OP, have no access to legal counsel. AFAIK, the Thai immigration laws don't state if they are entitled to any legal counsel

If a detainee has access to their phone, the have access to a lawyer. You are exemplifying my core stance - that people give up without a challenge, believing the old wive's tale 'foreigners can't win'.

 

Use of the correct Social Media is also a proven method of bringing matters to the attention of the public and therefore the authorities. Remember the Saudi woman that sought was stopped while attempting to fly to Australia? She brought her case to the attention of the whole world using social media when she was threatened with deportation to Saudi. She wasn't deported, she was given time to seek Asylum elsewhere. Of course her case was different - my point is she made her situation public by the use social media.

 

A further example is the myth that you lose everything if your marriage breaks up - including the matrimonial home you financed.  Done correctly in the first place and using a decent lawyer upon break up - you don't.

 

Of course I don't expect to win every battle but so far, whenever I've stood up for myself in Thailand and known I was in the right, I've won. The situation will never change if people continue accepting defeat without even entering into the battle.

 

I remain of the opinion that if unfair denials become widespread news on mainstream social media - TAT will step in and sort this - they do not want negative stories affecting Thailand's tourist industry.

 

How many tourists may think again about visiting Thailand if they think there is a possibility that having forked out their hard earned cash for a holiday, they may be denied entry? Thailand does not want this situation becoming a reality. If, as seems to be the case now, genuine tourists are being denied entry - the Thai authorities will step in.

[acenase]

A possible solution for future travelers...

 

Next time you come back to the Airport and the IO is looking through your passport and you feel he is about to  question your history because "you have too many visas"

 

Print out a copy of this Thai Law. Section 12. And you show them that you know what the Thai law is and there is no law that says there is a 180 day per year limit.

 

And also show them 20,000฿ cash and onward flight in 60 days and possibly have a bank statement printout of your last deposit showing you are not getting paid from Thailand, proving you are not working. 

 

I don't think anyone has done this, but I think it might be worth a shot. If you show you are educated about Thai law, when they question you and ask "You know Thai law?" If you say "No" they could use that and take advantage of you and say "Thai law says you can not come to Thailand more than 180 days". But if you show them you are educated about it then they will give up on you and stamp you in for proving yourself. Worth a shot.

 

 

[tabarin]

23 minutes ago, acenase said:

But if you show them you are educated about it then they will give up on you and stamp you in for proving yourself. Worth a shot.

How long did you live here? Being a smart ass towards any official is playing Russian roulette. 
I believe it will work in some cases but as I said, Russian roulette..

Lawfully you are right, culturally you make the IO lose face and their first annoyance is 'Farangs who know all'.
Perhaps a really cheesy polite way of stating 'I thought that 180 days a year is the limit,
I have been here less this year?' but I would certainly not shoving a paper up their face (and if you do in dual language to be water tight).

I would suggest we all massively question our embassies to demand better visa conditions based on trade like Brazil has 90 days on arrival.
The Dutch passport actually states in multiple languages 'His majesty asks all friendly nations, of which Thailand is one, to let them pass without any hinder and offer them every assistance & protection' perhaps that explains why I never got trouble.

[acenase]

32 minutes ago, tabarin said:

How long did you live here? Being a smart ass towards any official is playing Russian roulette. 
I believe it will work in some cases but as I said, Russian roulette..

Lawfully you are right, culturally you make the IO lose face and their first annoyance is 'Farangs who know all'.
Perhaps a really cheesy polite way of stating 'I thought that 180 days a year is the limit,
I have been here less this year?' but I would certainly not shoving a paper up their face (and if you do in dual language to be water tight).

 

 

Yeah but at the very least it's worth a shot otherwise you just sign the denial paper and be denied anyways.  The reason why it could work is because when I got denied entry he asked me "Do you know the Thai law?" And I stupidly said No. And that's when he said "You come to Thailand too much. You can not go to another country and come back. You need to go back and spend time in your own country first if you want to come back." 

 

But it wasn't until I saw my passport again and saw the stamp which is marked for Number 2, insufficient funds, is when i questioned it. But it was too late because now I was talking to the Thai Airline staff about it and not involved with Immigration staff when I saw my passport again. I was at the Thai Airline office booking my flight out to Vientiane before they let me out of the holding center and released me back into the Airport Departures Terminal.

 

But even the Airline staff, were giving me problems and saying I need to go back to my own country. But luckily, Thai Airlines don't fly to USA. And since I flew into Bangkok from Bali on Thai Airlines, they were responsible for my departure. I could only use Thai Airlines to fly out of Bangkok. So it was impossible for me to go back to USA anyways. But they kept saying I can not come to Thailand anymore.  They asked me where am I gonna go after I go to Vientiane? I told them "I will go to Thai-Laos Friendship bridge and enter at Nong Khai and fly to Bangkok from Udon Thani." And Thai Airline supervisor kept saying "Can not! You can not. You will run into same problem again." and I said "No, this doesn't mean I am banned from Thailand. And the reason says 'insufficient funds' and I have 30K cash in my wallet so it's wrong. This just means they dont want me to come in at this airport so I will fly back to Bangkok from Udon Thani" but then he said I will have a problem at DMK, but when I said "No, because I will already have my entry stamped at Nong Khai so when I fly to DMK from Udon, it will be a domestic flight, so I won't pass through Immigration." He didn't say anything after that.  

[moonseeker]

1 hour ago, sweatalot said:

Enough Chinese (not the cheap group tourists)

Spot on. MS>

[ExpatDraco]

This company's service is 150k to be put on the books of some shell company and get a work permit for a year, then 10k / year after that for renewals. Obviously I'm suspicious but if someone with more than a few posts on thaivisa has ever done it successfully I would do it. 

Sounds like a bargain to me...

[lkv]

15 minutes ago, ExpatDraco said:

6 hours ago, jspill said:

This company's service is 150k to be put on the books of some shell company and get a work permit for a year, then 10k / year after that for renewals. Obviously I'm suspicious but if someone with more than a few posts on thaivisa has ever done it successfully I would do it. 

Sounds like a bargain to me...

Not if you take into account that second year is "subject to Immigration approval", and then the agent tells you: "solly, cannot".

 

Then you've spent 150K in a year, which makes ED options seem like a bargain.

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, acenase said:

Yeah but at the very least it's worth a shot otherwise you just sign the denial paper and be denied anyways.

I believe the advice from our more knowlegable members is not to sign this paper.  As far as I know it usually states that you are being deported because you don't have sufficient funds to enter and that you will accept being charged for any detention period.

 

Personally I would not sign anything that I could not read. If its in a language that I don't understand I would want a translation (and that translation would have to be certified by in my case, the UK equivalent of the MFA, I would also requre a certified translation of the I.O's. passport.......sorry, joking, those who've done an affirmation of freedom to marry will get it).

 

I would also, only sign the translated document not the Thai version - that is if I agreed with the content.  There is no way of knowing if the 2 documents state the same thing.

[acenase]

17 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I believe the advice from our more knowlegable members is not to sign this paper.  As far as I know it usually states that you are being deported because you don't have sufficient funds to enter and that you will accept being charged for any detention period.

 

The only problem with that is you will be held in detention center the whole time and who knows how long you will be there. It's like being in jail. No ones gonna care about you. Just sitting there with nothing to do and no idea when you will see another staff to explain what's going on. I didn't want to be in there. When they told me to sign the paper, it says I was being detained for Insufficient funds/Visa run.  I just accepted it because they told me that I can book the next flight out to Vientiane on and I knew I would be able to enter Thailand there with no problems. I just wanted to get out of there and once I booked my ticket out, they escorted me out to the Departures terminal and let me wait at the gate before boarding the flight as a normal passenger.  

 

[NanLaew]

5 hours ago, acenase said:

Immigration never asked me to show them money and I even saw the sign at the Immigration desk that says "With Tourist Visa 20,000฿" and I told them I have 30K cash and tried to show them but they never cared about and acted as if 30K wasn't enough.

This is how they are enforcing the Section 12.2 rule of 'insufficient funds'.

 

They don't ask to see the money.

Therefore they never see the money

Therefore the money doesn't exist.

Therefore you're in violation of 12.2

 

Dead clever for dumb Thai IO's eh?

[NanLaew]

33 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I believe the advice from our more knowlegable members is not to sign this paper.  As far as I know it usually states that you are being deported because you don't have sufficient funds to enter and that you will accept being charged for any detention period.

 

Personally I would not sign anything that I could not read. If its in a language that I don't understand I would want a translation (and that translation would have to be certified by in my case, the UK equivalent of the MFA, I would also requre a certified translation of the I.O's. passport.......sorry, joking, those who've done an affirmation of freedom to marry will get it).

 

I would also, only sign the translated document not the Thai version - that is if I agreed with the content.  There is no way of knowing if the 2 documents state the same thing.

Don't forget that all the while you're being a stand by my rights refusenik, you are wasting precious time googling for a lawyer on your smartphone. You've got a Thai data package on that smartphone haven't you? There's no wi-fi in purgatory.

 

As for the notion that if enough refuseniks make a stand and use social media appropriately, pressure will be brought to bear on Thai Immigration and they will be shamed into seeing the error of their ways. Considering the huge majority of people that arrive and pass immigration untrammeled against the minuscule amount that get stopped and turned back, even if they did form some sort of group, it would be truly be farting against thunder.

 

Look at the all the threads that have been penned about this undeniably unfortunate situation. Most if not all are by brand new or relatively new members (or lurkers) who seem to have some degree of immigration history and some like the OP even have a work history as well. Meanwhile, legions of long-term 'resident tourists' come and go with impunity. I think there's more to this than meets the eye and I am not just talking about newbies and old codgers either.

[StayinThailand2much]

11 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

This is how they are enforcing the Section 12.2 rule of 'insufficient funds'.

 

They don't ask to see the money.

Therefore they never see the money

Therefore the money doesn't exist.

Therefore you're in violation of 12.2

 

Dead clever for dumb Thai IO's eh?

Dumb question: what would possibly happen if, suspecting being denied, I approached the airport immigration counter, actually holding 20,000 baht (as required funds) in my hand?

[NanLaew]

8 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

Dumb question: what would possibly happen if, suspecting being denied, I approached the airport immigration counter, actually holding 20,000 baht (as required funds) in my hand?

Not dumb but quite logical. However, showing the money when not asked to show the money has been mentioned in other threads. I can't recall what airports but I am pretty sure at least one of these denial of the existence of cash was at Don Muang. Anyway, it didn't work. As mentioned a few posts back by another member, they don't acknowledge it and obfuscate even more. See post #186 where acenase reports...

 

Quote

... Immigration never asked me to show them money and I even saw the sign at the Immigration desk that says "With Tourist Visa 20,000฿" and I told them I have 30K cash and tried to show them but they never cared about and acted as if 30K wasn't enough. ...

Right there, in bold, you have lack of acknowledgement and blatant obfuscation. Section 12.2 is thus enforced and don't let the door bang your ass on the way out.

 

Khrap.

 

[sanemax]

The OP was working as a teacher  in Thailand on a work visa , then left for a holiday and arrived back just as the new School term has started , which may have been the reason the IO thought that he was going back to work again 

[Leaver]

21 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Exactly - those improving the lives of Thais by spending money are punished, while those undercutting Thais for jobs get a pass.

I think you will find those undercutting Thai's for jobs are for Thai owners that make money from those foreigners spending money here, so labor costs are minimized, for maximum profits. 

[KhaoYai]

11 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Don't forget that all the while you're being a stand by my rights refusenik, you are wasting precious time googling for a lawyer on your smartphone. You've got a Thai data package on that smartphone haven't you? There's no wi-fi in purgatory.

Well actually yes, I have a Thai SIM with a data package, I usually renew it online as soon as I arrive. You actually don't need a data package to get online, its expensive but if there's credit on your phone you can go online. I always leave credit on my Thai SIM as it needs to work in the UK to receive One Time Passwords from Kasikorn Bank. I can also top it up via my online banking.

 

I would also take a guess that most of those that are in this situation also have a Thai enabled smartphone. The OP certainly didn't seem to be having much of a problem posting on here.  However, I can (expensive yes) use my UK SIM card (my phone is dual SIM) to get online if I so wish. 'Waste time time googling'?? How long exactly do you think it takes to search for a Thai lawyer? My Thai lawyer's number is in my phone already by the way. In any case, isn't the short term detention centre in the airport and isn't there free wifi in the airport?

 

11 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Look at the all the threads that have been penned about this undeniably unfortunate situation. Most if not all are by brand new or relatively new members (or lurkers) who seem to have some degree of immigration history and some like the OP even have a work history as well.

I hope you're right but it seems things are changing - it seemed to be only visa runners that were being denied entry a while ago - I'm not sure that's still the case.  I received a warning a couple of years ago as did a friend. We both enter often but we also leave for 8 weeks. I stay for 2 weeks, my mate stays for a month.

[brianthainess]

On 7/4/2019 at 9:08 PM, KhaoYai said:

You can laugh all you want DrJack54. I've read so many posts on here and elsewhere that always claim the 'farang' loses - 'you'll never win, you're a farang'. Obviously I'm not only talking about Immigration issues but whenever I've challenged a situation where I knew I was right in Thailand, I've won. I was told for example, that I had 'no chance' in a case where a major Thai hospital group had lied to me in order to get me to pay my ex-wife's bill. People told me that as a 'farang' I would be laughed at or just ignored. Even my lawyer said I would not win because the hospital could afford to pay high end lawyers - I won the case, got a full refund and my expenses.

 

People say you should just pay the police when you get stopped for some trumped up offence. I have always refused to pay anything when I've done nothing wrong. I've never been locked up nor had my licence taken and I've been stopped many times.

 

I may not always win, I accept that and its also true that even Thai nationals have far less 'rights' than we do in the West but that's not a good reason to let 'wrongs' go unchallenged.

 

From what I've seen people like to moan and groan about life in Thailand but very rarely do I see them challenge situations. Thailand is very sensitive on some issues - tourism is probably one of the most sensitive. How do you think the Tourism Authority would view this if what the OP says happened to him is correct? Do you think they'd want stories about genuine tourists with visas being denied entry to be reported in the mainstream media?

 

I have always believed that when something is blatantly wrong, it should be challenged - its no use just moaning about things. There are ways and means of challenging situations, to stand a chance you have to pick the right way - that's how I won the hospital case.

Challenging a private enterprise is a completely different story to challenging government  officials. I have tried one case was Trat transport office refusing to let me in registering a car in my name with a yellow house book and Pink I D card, insisting i need letter from Immigration, i even got them to speak to the office who issued my I D to no avail, Immigration when i got there towards the end of the day told me it was unnecessary, also rang this woman who insisted on the letter. Thanks to Trat immigration who issued the letter quickly and free of charge with just enough time to return to transport office. served by a different Lady who spoke English told me the letter was unnecessary ! Arrgh!  Every Government office make up their own rules as they go along mostly bcoz they themselves don't know them.