Unfair dismissal legal cause won: now what to do?

[lusty]

Dear All, I've recently won a legal cause at Labor Court with a final sentence in my favor. The sentence ordered my former employer to pay severance pay (3 months salary) + 15% for the delay. The other party had 15 days to either appeal or pay. Now, after almost 1 month, the other party neither appealed nor paid. So I have won the cause but got no money. My question is: what are my options? The lawyer wants to start a "forced execution" of the sentence, or something like that, involving various nasty moves (freezing bank accounts, confiscating assets, etc) to force the company to pay. Sounds good to me, but it costs money. Any alternative not involving paying a lawyer again and again? Anything I can do using the free services of the Labor Department?

Thank you for your attention,

Lusty     

[allane]

Did you have a Work Permit ? If yes, I have heard they will help you. I do not have personal  experience.

[yellowboat]

Send a reminder note?  Ask them to honor the court ruling nicely.  If they do not respond, I would say let your lawyer loose on them. 

[Pib]

That's a real problem in Thailand where rulings are ignored knowing the complainant will probably have to spend more money than collected on lawyer fees to get the award enforced/paid...and then the complainant just gives up instead. Enforcement is a real problem in Thailand.

[dotpoom]

26 minutes ago, Pib said:

That's a real problem in Thailand where rulings are ignored knowing the complainant will probably have to spend more money than collected on lawyer fees to get the award enforced/paid...and then the complainant just gives up instead. Enforcement is a real problem in Thailand.

Not just Thailand. About 40 yrs. ago back home in W. Europe I took an accountant to court for failing to lodge my tax returns. Took him to court and was awarded 400 Euro (probably Irish pounds at that time)....am still waiting? 

[fleur3]

if you fight for a cow you win but loose the money to your lawyer!

[stephehr]

You have to ask yourself the question why did you take them to court?  For your money right.  So let the lawyer deal with it he has the right idea freezing bank accounts, confiscating assets, etc. ix how you will get your money  I have seen it done the person went after a bank  long story but he got his money plus inters.  Me I would go after them for that is why u took them to court.  If you don't they u have wasted your time and the courts, and the company is laughing at you.

[PerkinsCuthbert]

Surely you are able to claim for additional costs in relation to collecting the earlier judgment, and these should be loosened up by the actions your lawyer is proposing? I would check with him though, to be sure, before giving him the go ahead.

[scorecard]

6 hours ago, allane said:

Did you have a Work Permit ? If yes, I have heard they will help you. I do not have personal  experience.

If your ducks are all in order, yes they will listen and help.

 

Suggest you go the the 'Complaints Centre', on the ground floor of the main Labour Dept., building in Din Daeng, near the main fence and there's an entrance gate very close by. All opposite the giant Japanese Thai stadium complex.

 

The 'Complaints Centre' sign is big and in English. The staff speak good English, they are knowledgeable, welcoming, listen well and check things thoroughly, they are friendly and have a good reputation for being very helpful, very organized and achieving good results, they're not frightened to talk to / confront any Thai employers no matter how big they are. 

 

Don't be afraid to go in, with all your documents, and talk to them.

 

Good luck.

 

Edited July 6, 2019 by scorecard

[Dene16]

3 hours ago, stephehr said:

You have to ask yourself the question why did you take them to court?  For your money right.  So let the lawyer deal with it

Are you not reading his post or just picking out bits you want to

The cost of the lawyer will eat up any returns he will see,  or more

 

 

[ericthai]

Ho back to the labor board, they have the power to extract the monies from the bank.  We had an employee pull a fast one on us when we moved offices. She filed a complaint and used our old address on purpose.  All notices went to the old address. We never showed up in court she won and they withdrew the funds from our bank account. We only realized this when the funds went missing. Contacted the bank and they told us where the funds went.  However, this is thailand and if they have good contacts you might not get anything. Hope you gets your money!

[DJ54]

Do as others suggested go to th labor board hopefully they can 

sort it out for you. If not ask lawyer to write a letter as what 

the next steps may be.

 

If the 3 months pay is significant enough to bare the lawyers fees 

the lawyer should be yiur last way to go. 

 

Best of luck

[dlclark97]

5 hours ago, PerkinsCuthbert said:

Surely you are able to claim for additional costs in relation to collecting the earlier judgment, and these should be loosened up by the actions your lawyer is proposing? I would check with him though, to be sure, before giving him the go ahead.

Definitely request the original settlement plus the now additional lawyer fees if you go this route.

[BestB]

Do not hold me to it 100% but this is what i was told at labor office.

 

I was not involved in the case but was helping my employees to get paid from their new boss(long story)

 

Labor office advised, they first give 3 notices, if all 3 attempts are failed, they then contact police and get an arrest warrant for the director.

 

So from my understanding, you can go back to labor office and ask for assistance as you still have not been paid.

 

If it was a civil case, then its a different matter but i think you can also ask for your legal costs to start forced recovery action.

[soalbundy]

17 hours ago, dotpoom said:

Not just Thailand. About 40 yrs. ago back home in W. Europe I took an accountant to court for failing to lodge my tax returns. Took him to court and was awarded 400 Euro (probably Irish pounds at that time)....am still waiting? 

get a high court writ

[Captain 776]

Go back to court they will file a judgement against the company for sure and maybe increase the penalty amount

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

get a high court writ

Or even a late note from god's mother...

[scorecard]

16 hours ago, scorecard said:

If your ducks are all in order, yes they will listen and help.

 

Suggest you go the the 'Complaints Centre', on the ground floor of the main Labour Dept., building in Din Daeng, near the main fence and there's an entrance gate very close by. All opposite the giant Japanese Thai stadium complex.

 

The 'Complaints Centre' sign is big and in English. The staff speak good English, they are knowledgeable, welcoming, listen well and check things thoroughly, they are friendly and have a good reputation for being very helpful, very organized and achieving good results, they're not frightened to talk to / confront any Thai employers no matter how big they are. 

 

Don't be afraid to go in, with all your documents, and talk to them.

 

Good luck.

 

Add.... It's on the ground floor of the building where they issue / renew work permits.

 

[lusty]

Dear All,

thank you very much for the good advice. My initial idea was to go to the Labor Department with a copy if the sentence and ask for help. The problem is I'm abroad until October. Is there a time limit to act upon this matter, like 90 days or so? I'm afraid that if I don't enforce the sentence within a certain time frame, it will expire. I'd love to wait until October: considering the 15% running interest, the more I wait, the more I gain, in theory. Asking the lawyer to go to the Labor Department won't work, he smells additional fees and he wants to hit the company. The company's owner is a foreigner, so I'm confident the Labor Department will act to make sure the sentence is enforced. Maybe I should email a few lawyers and ask for advice. Anyway, thanks again to you all.

[justin case]

just wondering how much you pay your lawyer, as mine before lifting a little finger = 130.000 baht and extra's will be added, off course .... 

[fcbkk]

Lusty i only see your post here now.

 

Your case seems perhaps a few weeks ahead of mine. i copy a link of my own case and post below for reference.

 

In a nutshell: the (Welfare and Protection Unit of the) Labour Office has issued an order for my former employer to pay Severance and 15% interest. The company so far has neither appealed nor paid and I do not expect this to change, hence i'd expect soon to be in the same situation as you described in your original post on 5-July.

 

I am not sure if the Labour Office can assist with the employer's failure to appeal or pay, as BestB suggested in his post 6th of July. I’d be keen to hear if you have been able to validate this?

 

My understanding from discussions with all parties is that the Labour Court offers legal representation for free. To be clear - the Labour Court is not identical to the Labour Office (or Labour “Board” as other posters here referred to). But unless your Thai is better than mine then you will have to pay for translation services.

 

I was also told that it is possible to file a case years after the events, but I am not certain of precise deadlines. Again, i would love to hear if you found out more specific details.

 

What did your lawyer quote to process next steps for you and what exact steps have you decided for and progressed (if any yet)?

 

Feel free to contact via DM if exchange of info can help.

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by fcbkk

[Inn Between]

It sounds like your lawyer should do quite well from all this. 

[BestB]

One more thing to consider before you take the next step is to check if the company still exist and still under the same ownership.

 

owner may have packed up already and left , so you would be chasing your own tail .

 

I am very close to a case due to a sale. Owner did not pay any staff for 2 months, staff went to labor office, labor office checked and owner had company in staff name, his name was nowhere . Staff forged documents and changed directorship to him , without his knowledge .

 

labor office sent out 3 notices to appear , have filed a case with police and immigration but owner has left Thailand prior to all of that . 

 

Eventually , perhaps he would be arrested and whatever happens , but all 7 staff remain unpaid and it could take years before he comes back 

[lusty]

Thank you fcbkk for sharing your case. Basically, the lawyer now wants to proceed with something called Forced Execution of the sentence, which involves freezing the company bank accounts, confiscating assets in the office, like desktops and laptops, in order to force the MD to cough out the money. This sounds very good but there are 2 main issues:

1. these must be done by a lawyer and the proceedings aren't cheap (25-50,000 THB);     

2. you must find out the company's bank account(s), otherwise you are stuck;

3. regarding confiscating assets, computers etc, the all thing is obscure, not sure how it works;

As I'm abroad til October, I'm unable to do much. So I've sent a Thai friend to Labor Court and Labor Dept to find alternatives to the expensive lawyer solutions. 

To answer the other comments, the company is still there, making a lot of money, and my colleagues are all waiting to see how this will end...

Cheers,

Lusty 

 

[BestB]

2 hours ago, lusty said:

Thank you fcbkk for sharing your case. Basically, the lawyer now wants to proceed with something called Forced Execution of the sentence, which involves freezing the company bank accounts, confiscating assets in the office, like desktops and laptops, in order to force the MD to cough out the money. This sounds very good but there are 2 main issues:

1. these must be done by a lawyer and the proceedings aren't cheap (25-50,000 THB);     

2. you must find out the company's bank account(s), otherwise you are stuck;

3. regarding confiscating assets, computers etc, the all thing is obscure, not sure how it works;

As I'm abroad til October, I'm unable to do much. So I've sent a Thai friend to Labor Court and Labor Dept to find alternatives to the expensive lawyer solutions. 

To answer the other comments, the company is still there, making a lot of money, and my colleagues are all waiting to see how this will end...

Cheers,

Lusty 

 

You have of course considered that they have not paid because you are not here? 

 

If i was the company , I would pay ONLY in person and get you to sign document saying received. 

[Sujo]

4 minutes ago, BestB said:

You have of course considered that they have not paid because you are not here? 

 

If i was the company , I would pay ONLY in person and get you to sign document saying received. 

The Lawyer or any person acting on his behalf can do that.

 

You dont get to chose not to pay simply because he is out of the country. 

[BestB]

30 minutes ago, Sujo said:

W The Lawyer or any person acting on his behalf can do that.

 

You dont get to chose not to pay simply because he is out of the country. 

Lawyer without power of atterney? Oh ok????

 

Yes you do and if taken to court again will win as claimant has not come to collect the money nor had court appointed person coming to collect 

[lusty]

I see your point BestB. That is why the first question I had was: how long do I have to take action against the non-payment? I was told I had 1 year from sentence date. So I can do nothing until I return, while the interest accrues in my favor. It should be in the other party's interest to settle this ASAP. Meanwhile I've sent a Thai lawyer friend to investigate the possibilities of acting against the company with the (hopefully free) backup of Labor Dept and without the lawyer. I suppose that to implement whatever course of action I have to be there. Thinking of the bombs, the increasing pollution and crowds, at the moment I have zero enthusiasm to go back to downtown Bangkok...    

[fcbkk]

On 8/2/2019 at 1:27 PM, lusty said:

Thank you fcbkk for sharing your case. Basically, the lawyer now wants to proceed with something called Forced Execution of the sentence, which involves freezing the company bank accounts, confiscating assets in the office, like desktops and laptops, in order to force the MD to cough out the money. This sounds very good but there are 2 main issues:

1. these must be done by a lawyer and the proceedings aren't cheap (25-50,000 THB);     

2. you must find out the company's bank account(s), otherwise you are stuck;

3. regarding confiscating assets, computers etc, the all thing is obscure, not sure how it works;

As I'm abroad til October, I'm unable to do much. So I've sent a Thai friend to Labor Court and Labor Dept to find alternatives to the expensive lawyer solutions. 

To answer the other comments, the company is still there, making a lot of money, and my colleagues are all waiting to see how this will end...

Cheers,

Lusty 

 

 

Thanks for the response lusty, only see it now upon return from travel.

 

In my case the company’s deadline to either pay or appeal the decision by the 'Labour Office' ends this week. Next week i should learn next steps required or necessary via the Labour Office, such as e.g. having to take my former employer to court to enforce compliance.

 

The advice given to me by lawyers from the ‘Labour Court’ was that they will conduct such proceedings on my behalf. Their legal representation is free of charge and they advised some 2 months typical timeline for the process. However, they did not mention ‘forced execution’ specifically, so i will have to clarify, if this would be part of their process, or perhaps beyond.
Lusty, if you learned any added info via your Thai friend in the mean time then i’d appreciate a message.  

 

I personally will need a translator for the court, this may or may not be more cost effective than hiring an English speaking lawyer. The latter would also enable proceedings via a regular [criminal] court, rather than filing of the case via the ‘Labour Court’. The lawyers from the 'Labour Court' mentioned this option, but I have not yet learned detailed info, as to whether there are advantages of one approach vs the other. There might be differences beyond lawyer’s cost, e.g. in timelines or legal firepower involved.

 

As for 'forced execution' i am not sure how this would work, but there must be a way to enforce compliance without having to know a company’s bank accounts? Otherwise it would seem impossible to ever enforce compliance in any case anywhere?

 

 

[fcbkk]

On 8/3/2019 at 2:41 PM, lusty said:

I see your point BestB. That is why the first question I had was: how long do I have to take action against the non-payment? I was told I had 1 year from sentence date. So I can do nothing until I return, while the interest accrues in my favor. It should be in the other party's interest to settle this ASAP. Meanwhile I've sent a Thai lawyer friend to investigate the possibilities of acting against the company with the (hopefully free) backup of Labor Dept and without the lawyer. I suppose that to implement whatever course of action I have to be there. Thinking of the bombs, the increasing pollution and crowds, at the moment I have zero enthusiasm to go back to downtown Bangkok...    

 

Lusty, in this comment you mentioned ‘hopefully free backup of Labour Dept and without the lawyer’.

 

You may know this already, or perhaps you can clarify any wrong advice that i might have received, but i believe if you want free legal support you need to file a case via the ‘Labour Court’, not the ‘Labour Office’, or 'Dept' as you called it.

 

This at least is my understanding after numerous meetings with various institutions. The ‘Labour Court’ employs lawyers, who provide free support including court proceedings. Their offices in BKK are near Hua Lampong. The ‘Labour Office’ (specifically it’s 'Welfare and Protection Department') employs case workers, who investigate and then advise an initial and legally binding decision for matters enshrined directly within the employment laws. Their offices in BKK are in Din Daeng i believe.

 

Does this match advice that you received? If you find a different avenue for free/more support then i’d appreciate more info.