Automatic scooter, 3 wheels, ABS - and what's the next bike?

[OneMoreFarang]

It seems more and more people want to buy bikes with automatic, three wheels, ABS and other things which are supposed to make it easier.

 

A long time ago when I bought my first bike it had two wheels, no ABS, gears and a clutch - and all was fine and easy. So when I changed to a bigger bike I didn't have to learn anything new. The bigger bikes also had two wheels, gears and a clutch, and most had no ABS.

 

When I read posts here from people who look for "beginner bikes" it seems many people recommend 3 wheels, automatic and ABS.

And sometime later it seems riders of these bikes want bigger bikes still without gears, etc.

 

What is your experience? Did you change from an automatic to a "normal" bike with gears and clutch? Or did you make sure a bigger bike also has automatic?

And how about riders of the Yamaha Tricity or something similar. Would you consider riding a bike with two wheels?

And last but not least ABS. It's obviously nice to have. But I wonder if people who learned on a ABS bike would ever want to ride a bike without ABS.

 

[guzzi850m2]

I am not interested in a 3 wheeled scooter unless I lived in a city filled with cobble stones.

Owned about 4 Waves over the years but my preferred run about is my PCX and the next one after that will also be an automatic, just so easy in downtown Pattaya.

My big bike will always be a manual and I want ABS on it and I must say traction control is very nice to have as well, saved me a couple of times spinning out of control when doing a spirited take off from green lights, 555.

I will not rule out that I will get a maxi scooter when/if I get really old but don't want to worry about that now and enjoy my "real" bike instead.

Once out on my XSR, I meet an old expat on a Xmax 300cc and I was quite impressed, I rode with him (just for fun) for about 20km and he was often doing over 130 on it and took off from the green lights like a bat out of hell and he was always faster than me for the first 100 meters because I had my traction control set to 2 (pussy mode), haha. Seems like a great scooter and it looks good too.

 

[OneMoreFarang]

27 minutes ago, guzzi850m2 said:

I am not interested in a 3 wheeled scooter unless I lived in a city filled with cobble stones.

Owned about 4 Waves over the years but my preferred run about is my PCX and the next one after that will also be an automatic, just so easy in downtown Pattaya.

My big bike will always be a manual and I want ABS on it and I must say traction control is very nice to have as well, saved me a couple of times spinning out of control when doing a spirited take off from green lights, 555.

I will not rule out that I will get a maxi scooter when/if I get really old but don't want to worry about that now and enjoy my "real" bike instead.

Once out on my XSR, I meet an old expat on a Xmax 300cc and I was quite impressed, I rode with him (just for fun) for about 20km and he was often doing over 130 on it and took off from the green lights like a bat out of hell and he was always faster than me for the first 100 meters because I had my traction control set to 2 (pussy mode), haha. Seems like a great scooter and it looks good too.

Pussy mode is only for Pattaya. ???? 

[jackdd]

All bikes have their pros and cons. In the city a clutch is definitely a pain in the ass. Semi automatic is ok for me in the city, automatic is a bit more comfortable, but a CVT drive offers less power than a chain drive.

If a small bike has ABS this is definitely a plus, but it's not a must. Same for traction control. I think nearly all current big bikes have ABS anyway.

There are not many big bike choices with automatic, afaik only Honda is offering it, so if this model does not match your need for any other reason (in my case for example because Honda is only offering the low version of the Africa Twin since 2018), then there is only manual. For some big bikes it's possible to convert it to semi automatic (https://rekluse.com), but i don't have any personal experience with this.

I did never ride a bike like the Tricity yet, but i think that's an interesting concept and i would not rule out owning one in the future.

[sprice]

In the coming decades I think we will see a steep rise in fully automatic and fully electronic motorcycles.

 

I love my manual cb500x, but considering how fun my little automatic scooters have been...  I can see these new automatic machines being a lot of fun for on-road riders.

 

Edit: I don't think 3 wheeled machines will catch on in a big way.

 

And from what I understand about it. ABS just seems like a nice safety feature for on-road riding.

[VocalNeal]

I'd buy an Aprilia Mana just for the novelty. Would be OK for a touring bike. 

 

 

[alx123]

Learned to ride on a fully manual clutch motorcycle with old school drum brakes myself but driving in BKK traffic with a twist and go scooter is far more comfortable. For longer rides, I'll consider increasing the cc of my bike but an AT would be fine. 

 

I am open to new techs that can increase safety and comfort, So ABS and traction control would be great, esp if your'e riding bigger cc.

 

People who started learning with AT's and ABS brakes need not to worry about not learning manual clutching imho, there are more AT options in the higher cc now and will exponentially increase in the near future. 

 

Have you guys seen the self balancing motorcycle prototypes? With the advancement in 5G, IOT and AI, we'll soon see more technologies being used in our rides. I think we are in the dawn of very exciting new techs in riding.

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

2 hours ago, alx123 said:

People who started learning with AT's and ABS brakes need not to worry about not learning manual clutching imho, there are more AT options in the higher cc now and will exponentially increase in the near future. 

 

Have you guys seen the self balancing motorcycle prototypes? With the advancement in 5G, IOT and AI, we'll soon see more technologies being used in our rides. I think we are in the dawn of very exciting new techs in riding.

This is what concerns me (a little). It seems that people who had a small automatic want a big automatic.

And people who are used to i.e. traction control "need" to have traction control in the next bike because they never learned how to ride a bike without those features.

 

I think it takes some time and practice to learn how to brake (nearly) 100% without ABS. Most "old school" riders know how to do that. I.e. my new bike has ABS but even with hard braking my front ABS never engaged - I guess because I practiced enough that I just know when I shouldn't brake harder. But will Only-ABS-Riders ever learn that? Maybe they never have to learn it if they use only their own bike or buy at some stage a new bike which also has ABS. But if they would want to ride an "old" bike without ABS and they would have to brake hard what would they do? Brake 100% and crash because they never learned to brake without ABS?

 

And I think it is similar with lots of new technology which is supposed to make riding and driving easier. Maybe soon people won't look out of the windows in cars anymore because the car does all automatic - until it doesn't work anymore or works unreliable and then there will be big problems.

 

I am not against modern technology but I am against dumbing down people who never learn important things about "normal" bikes.

[stubby52]

I had a Tricity for a while but is over weight and under powered in the 125 version have got a pcx now it's a pity they only export the abs version.

[sprice]

On 7/10/2019 at 5:47 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

I am not against modern technology but I am against dumbing down people who never learn important things about "normal" bikes.

 

Being a younger man, getting into motorcycles during the generation of ABS standard, I strongly disagree.  (I learned how to drive on a non-ABS motorcycle).

 

A younger generation using and taking advantage of new and safer technology does not dumb them down.

 

Yes you may have the outlier who doesn't know how to ride non-ABS, jump on one of these older machines and have an accident.  But there will always be outliers... it doesn't mean we shouldn't embrace and push for better and safer tech.  Even if that means newer generations won't necessarily learn how to properly control older vehicles.

[richard_smith237]

I went from the 155cc TriCity - with ABS which I thought was an excellent bike and perfect for nipping around the city. 

 

I now ride a BMW G310GS which has ABS. 

 

I wouldn't want to ride any motorcycle without ABS - I guess I'm from 'that generation'... and whenever new tech arrives there is always a previous generation discussing that it takes away from the skill or purity, in this case of motorcycling...  It doesn't, there are still the old non ABS bikes for the purists. For the rest of us, there will be fewer injuries and accidents because of the development of this tech. 

 

I've read so many guys who argue that they don't need ABS, that they can always brake up to the limit of the bike without ABS coming on etc... When somchai pulls out in front of you and you have to emergency brake in a shiny slippy road in the wet ABS is everyone's best friend, especially if you also need to steer around something while braking heavily. 

 

 

On the Use of ABS: On the TriCity I've had the ABS come on a couple of times when braking hard after someone cut me up... On the BMW I've also had the ABS come on a couple of times, I'm sure on both of those occasions I'd have come off without ABS - People do the most unpredictable and stupid things in front of you, you can predict their unpredictability as much as you want, but on a clear road someone stopping in front of you for no reason and braking for 60km to 0km is very surprising - even more so in the wet.... ABS helped when I did what experienced rides would call 'grabbing too much front brake'...

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

Back onto the 3 Wheeled Topic there is a 300cc Yamaha 3 wheeler coming...  3CT... 

 

I'd get one of these for nipping about the city, then something larger for more fun spirited rides...

 

I'm still undecided on what that would be but looked at the Ducati Scrambler Cafe Racer, Ducati Scrambler 1100, Ducati 821, Guzzi V2...  

I'm liking the new Indian FTR...  If that comes to Bangkok... (I'd hope it has ABS, Cornering ABS and Traction Control)... 

 

 

So... to answer the Onemorefarangs questions: I'd never have a bike without ABS, I wouldn't have ever chosen a bike in Bangkok unless it had ABS. 

I would happily go back to a 3 wheeled bike for nipping around the City, 155cc had enough grunt, the 300cc model would just be a better version of it.... The rest is cosmetics... some like it some don't. 

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

Thanks for your answers - interesting.

 

Maybe I should clarify my thoughts a little:

ABS is a great invention. And if I would buy a new bike I would prefer ABS. But I would not make it a condition that the bike needs ABS.

Automatic might be practical, I never tried one. For me using the gears and clutch goes so automatic that it just happens. I never had the idea that I want automatic.

 

About dumbing down: In a way it's like people using calculators. It's nice to have them. But it seems there are more and more people, especially in Thailand, who can't add two simple numbers without calculator.

And maybe something similar is happening with ABS and other features. Maybe drivers and riders don't know anymore how to use their vehicle without it. And what's next? Automatic braking if something is in front of the vehicle? Etc.

 

One thing many of us will notice are all the people who use mobile phones in their cars and even on their bikes. I don't know exactly why they do that but I guess part of the situation is that their vehicle does some things automatically, so people do something else. And somehow I think with more and more technology the situation will get worse.

 

I have no good solution for this. Having no ABS and no modern technology development is certainly not a "solution". But letting vehicles doing everything automatically and having drivers and riders who don't know "basic" skills anymore does also not sound desirable.

[sprice]

I've gotta go the other way on the "vehicles doing things automatically" scenario as well.

 

Regarding cars... Tesla's... with their fully automatic driving, are statistically one of the safest vehicles on the road right now.

 

Computers never get tired, drunk, look away at a cell phone, make rash decisions, etc...

 

I'm personally looking forward to more and more automation in cars to take away the carelessness of the human brain.

 

Although I'll always prefer the thrill of a manual motorcycle.

 

Re: Calculators: I don't think the ability to do basic math in your head is a good indicator of intelligence.  I run 2 successful online businesses, consider myself to be somewhat intelligent, but I still use a calculator even for simple problems because it avoids the possibility of an error.  As long as I type in the numbers correctly.

[sprice]

That new Indian is beautiful.  I've always had an eye for the Ducati Scrambler, but Indian's aren't very popular in the States so I'm not too familiar with them.

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And what's next? Automatic braking if something is in front of the vehicle? Etc.

That already exists... 

Our car has radar cruise control... and something else (I can't remember the name), but if the car in front stops and we don't the car takes over, its never happened to me, but my Wife said it happened to her once in traffic (when she was distracted - probably on the phone !).

 

The car also stays in the lane automatically on the express way (and gives you a warning if you don't hold the steering wheel for 10 seconds or so)... 

 

So, the driver aids are all there... but i think it will be a long time before we see them on the bikes, a driver can't fall off the car if it brakes without warning, but a rider can. Thus, I think any rider aids will be more 'warning' aids than actually taking over and braking etc...

 

 

But ultimately, accidents happen because of human error. Reducing human error and we'll see less accidents. 

I foresee a day when all cars are driverless, perhaps all motorcycles too... If we want to ride or drive ourselves we'd have to do so on a track or specified area. 

[OneMoreFarang]

7 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Our car has radar cruise control... and something else (I can't remember the name), but if the car in front stops and we don't the car takes over, its never happened to me, but my Wife said it happened to her once in traffic (when she was distracted - probably on the phone !).

A couple of years ago I drove with a guy in his brand new car which had a similar technology. He was proud of it and wanted to demonstrate it to me. So he just let the car drive straight to the waiting cars at the red light. And we both waited to see when his car would brake automatically.

It never happened! In the last second he stamped his foot onto the brake to stop it himself.

I guess that was one of those moments which made me skeptical about the modern technologies... 

[expatfromwyoming]

10 hours ago, sprice said:

Regarding cars... Tesla's... with their fully automatic driving, are statistically one of the safest vehicles on the road right now.

If there’s one thing that Elon Musk likes more than pseudoprofundity, it’s superlatives. Small wonder, then, that the company that brought us the Gigafactory, Superchargers, and Ludicrous Mode has had an easy time convincing its fan base that Tesla makes the “safest car on the road”.

If a recent 2019 Consumer Reports article is any indication “The Tesla’s stopping distance of 152 feet from 60 mph was far worse than any contemporary car we’ve tested and about 7 feet longer than the stopping distance of a Ford F-150 full-sized pickup”.

[papa al]

papa looking for a unicycle.

[Damrongsak]

1 hour ago, papa al said:

papa looking for a unicycle.

Here you go.  A low rider.

 

[sprice]

5 hours ago, expatfromwyoming said:

If there’s one thing that Elon Musk likes more than pseudoprofundity, it’s superlatives. Small wonder, then, that the company that brought us the Gigafactory, Superchargers, and Ludicrous Mode has had an easy time convincing its fan base that Tesla makes the “safest car on the road”.

If a recent 2019 Consumer Reports article is any indication “The Tesla’s stopping distance of 152 feet from 60 mph was far worse than any contemporary car we’ve tested and about 7 feet longer than the stopping distance of a Ford F-150 full-sized pickup”.

 

 

I have no idea what that CSV is.

 

The bottom line is that when a computer is driving a car on the road, it is statistically less likely to cause an accident when compared to a human driving the same car.

 

Whether it's a Tesla or whatever other autonomous cars are currently hitting the roads.

 

Currently the vast majority of times that autonomous cars have been in accidents, have been caused by human error.

[tjo o tjim]

7 hours ago, expatfromwyoming said:

If a recent 2019 Consumer Reports article is any indication “The Tesla’s stopping distance of 152 feet from 60 mph was far worse than any contemporary car we’ve tested and about 7 feet longer than the stopping distance of a Ford F-150 full-sized pickup”.

 

Your info is out of date:  https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-model-3-gets-cr-recommendation-after-braking-update/

 

brief summary: After the article Tesla did an over-the-air update to reduce the stopping distance by 19’, making it comparable to similar cars in its class. 

 

The reason for the original setting was  likely to maximize regenerative braking for efficiency. 

 

Two take-aways:  the idea of being able to change braking performance with a painless, automatic software update is amazing, and if you are going to count out technology’s place in the future you are likely to be disappointed. 

 

Personally, I am curious what will happen with the electric motorcycles, although I can never imagine “self driving” tackling Thailand roads. 

[richard_smith237]

21 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

On 7/13/2019 at 6:46 PM, richard_smith237 said:

Our car has radar cruise control... and something else (I can't remember the name), but if the car in front stops and we don't the car takes over, its never happened to me, but my Wife said it happened to her once in traffic (when she was distracted - probably on the phone !).

A couple of years ago I drove with a guy in his brand new car which had a similar technology. He was proud of it and wanted to demonstrate it to me. So he just let the car drive straight to the waiting cars at the red light. And we both waited to see when his car would brake automatically.

It never happened! In the last second he stamped his foot onto the brake to stop it himself.

I guess that was one of those moments which made me skeptical about the modern technologies... 

Exactly the same thing happened to me... I was testing the Anti-collision thingy, I drove towards the cars and nothing happened, I ended up hitting the brakes. 

 

But, when my Wife was driving it worked (when the car braked when she wasn't paying attention). My take away from that is that it works, but at a closer proximity to the car in front than I could ever be comfortable with. 

 

I flinched first !! - never play a car at poker then !!!

[Dakling]

Been riding for 30 years, obviously started on a manual with no ABS. I was very skeptical to ride an ABS bike as I was worried about how the system would feel or react as you approached the limits on the front. Was very pleasently surprised how well the systems work and am now an ABS fan, especially for new riders. I have never had traction control and I don't think I would realy want it. While I know it is a bit of a punks move I still like to slide the rear a bit on exit and I would worry how the system would engage and if it would upset the bike if you are drifting the back out a bit on exit. On launch I think it would be fine.

 

I can't see how they will ever get any kind of self driving system that I could tolerate because managing lean angle, throttle input and braking are so dependant on the situation and your desired line. I wouldn't want to end up trying something a bit aggressive and then have the bike start fighting me. Maybe I am just being pessimistic but I think bike dynamics would be a lot harder to manage with somesort of driver assist system.

[alx123]

most TCS system has a switch, so you can choose to engage it or not. 

[sprice]

I don't think any self driving motorcycle systems are coming in the near future. People buy cars to get from point A to point B. They buy motorcycles to drive a motorcycle.

[OneMoreFarang]

17 minutes ago, sprice said:

I don't think any self driving motorcycle systems are coming in the near future. People buy cars to get from point A to point B. They buy motorcycles to drive a motorcycle.

So how do you call the people who buy the bathtubs?

[Damrongsak]

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

So how do you call the people who buy the bathtubs?

In this case, practical.  How much beer would this haul?